Why pre-ordering is dangerous (and often stupid)

On 2011-06-29 14:15 , Robert Peirce wrote:
In articleHqqdnSCzEewjF5fTnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@giganews. com,
Alan wrote:

The only smart (money) way to acquire a car is to pay the most you can
in down payment, to pay off the car as quickly as possible and finally
to use that same car as long as economically possible.

Cash is better, if you can do it.

Of course.

Leasing has the car devaluing while you are on a fixed payment schedule
and having put down a minimal (if any) down payment. The car usually
devalues quickly. At the end you have either rented by paying too much
per month or can "buy out" the car at a premium over its used value.

That may fit some people's needs, but it is far from the best money deal.

That's true but I have leased and owned cars. I lease because I tend to
hang onto cars forever.

That would be a call to own outright. Is that what you meant?

I recently sold a 1977. If I lease them I have
to get rid of them. I currently lease a car. It would have been
cheaper to buy it, but now I know I have to replace it. OTOH, I just
bought a car I expect to own for the next ten years.

Every car I buy is for 9 - 10 years.


--
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On 2011-06-28 23:15 , John McWilliams wrote:
On 6/28/11 PDT 7:15 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
On 2011-06-28 21:12 , John McWilliams wrote:
On 6/28/11 PDT 12:20 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
On 2011-06-27 12:21 , Robert Peirce wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

On 6/25/11 PDT 5:17 PM, RichA wrote:
Pre-ordering is like putting money down on a leased car.

Virtually all leased vehicles require some upfront money on top of
the
first month's lease payment.

In many, perhaps most, cases it is possible to negotiate a deal
with no
upfront money. When this can be done it is often to your advantage
even
if the monthly payments are higher.

No. Unless you're short cash at the start. But you will be paying them
that back later on. With interest. So you'd only be winning if you lock
in the interest rates and then there is sudden inflation and rising i
rates.

Leasing cars is rarely, if ever, a smart money move for a personal car.

You're good up to that last sentence. Sometimes it is, sometimes it
ain't. Each deal has to be examined in some detail.

The only smart (money) way to acquire a car is to pay the most you can
in down payment, to pay off the car as quickly as possible and finally
to use that same car as long as economically possible.

The "only way", huh?? You presume the choices are lease or finance. What
about self finance? Opportunity cost of funds lost in downpayment?

The cheapest (smart money) way to buy a car is to pay for it quickly at
the best negotiated price.

While opportunity cost does have its place, you are also putting that
cash at risk (investments can fail as well as return).

I'd concede that if you had another higher interest rate loan to service
and could do so without penalty, then that is a smarter place for the
cash and thence a lease might be more attractive from a cash flow
position. But in the end it's just contributing to an overall poor
debt/cash flow position (lease deals have onerous early exit conditions).

But as one who avoids debt, I can't help but think of a car loan as one
of the least useful debts to owe as the asset is declining in value at
all times (with very rare exceptions).

Leasing has the car devaluing while you are on a fixed payment schedule
and having put down a minimal (if any) down payment. The car usually
devalues quickly. At the end you have either rented by paying too much
per month or can "buy out" the car at a premium over its used value.

The car depreciates whether you own it or lease, whether you buy it out
of pocket, via loan, or via lease. The buy out may be more or less than
the then current market value. Each deal needs examining in light of
one's personal situation.

If that means "short on cash for a real down payment" then I agree, but
that also indicates a general weakness in ability to manage ones funds
and debts in any case. Sorry, I'm very conservative about such things.

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On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:22:27 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

I recently sold a 1977. If I lease them I have
to get rid of them. I currently lease a car. It would have been
cheaper to buy it, but now I know I have to replace it. OTOH, I just
bought a car I expect to own for the next ten years.

Every car I buy is for 9 - 10 years.

A guy recently gave a presentation on fireworks photography at my
camera club. He uses a technique where he sets the camera to bulb,
holds a black card over the lens, removes the card when the firework
blossoms, re-covers the lens, and repeats. He gets several blossoms
in a frame. Pretty, if you like that sort of photograph.

When asked how long he keeps the shutter open, his reply was "Until
I'm done".

I feel the same way about trading cars. No set number of years, just
"When I'm ready".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

On 2011-06-29 16:40 , tony cooper wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:22:27 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

I recently sold a 1977. If I lease them I have
to get rid of them. I currently lease a car. It would have been
cheaper to buy it, but now I know I have to replace it. OTOH, I just
bought a car I expect to own for the next ten years.

Every car I buy is for 9 - 10 years.

A guy recently gave a presentation on fireworks photography at my
camera club. He uses a technique where he sets the camera to bulb,
holds a black card over the lens, removes the card when the firework
blossoms, re-covers the lens, and repeats. He gets several blossoms
in a frame. Pretty, if you like that sort of photograph.

When asked how long he keeps the shutter open, his reply was "Until
I'm done".

I feel the same way about trading cars. No set number of years, just
"When I'm ready".

It's a way to do it. I don't like cars and I despise maintaining them.
So I buy a reliable brand (Honda) which needs minimal maintenance over
10 years and ~180,000 km. After that the rust starts up (Quebec uses a
lot of salt on the roads) and other things begin to fail.

So then I buy a new one.

I believe the above formula is about as stingy as I can get and have a
reliable, always starts at -35°C car that handles well and is efficient.

If I bought a 1 year old Honda and drove it for 9 years I'd avoid the
initial steep depreciation too. I just dislike not knowing how a
previous owner treated the car.

--
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On 2011-06-29 16:40 , tony cooper wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:22:27 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

I recently sold a 1977. If I lease them I have
to get rid of them. I currently lease a car. It would have been
cheaper to buy it, but now I know I have to replace it. OTOH, I just
bought a car I expect to own for the next ten years.

Every car I buy is for 9 - 10 years.

A guy recently gave a presentation on fireworks photography at my
camera club. He uses a technique where he sets the camera to bulb,
holds a black card over the lens, removes the card when the firework
blossoms, re-covers the lens, and repeats. He gets several blossoms
in a frame. Pretty, if you like that sort of photograph.

When asked how long he keeps the shutter open, his reply was "Until
I'm done".

You can go quite a while if you think about it. Since it really is
separate exposures (in the dark, with the shutter open there is no
exposure - not enough to worry about, anyway).

So each rocket sets its own exposure in that area of the film.

The way I recall it is f/8 @ ISO 100.

I did it a couple times using a ball cap for a shutter and a remote to
hold the shutter open.

After getting a feel for the "scene" I would typically allow 3 "sets" of
shots into the frame while it was open and then close the shutter and
move on.

If it's a calm evening and the smoke builds up, then you do have to
reduce the shutter time as the smoke reflects other light sources and
rocket exhaust which reduces the contrast somewhat.

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On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:57:53 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

On 2011-06-29 16:40 , tony cooper wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:22:27 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

I recently sold a 1977. If I lease them I have
to get rid of them. I currently lease a car. It would have been
cheaper to buy it, but now I know I have to replace it. OTOH, I just
bought a car I expect to own for the next ten years.

Every car I buy is for 9 - 10 years.

A guy recently gave a presentation on fireworks photography at my
camera club. He uses a technique where he sets the camera to bulb,
holds a black card over the lens, removes the card when the firework
blossoms, re-covers the lens, and repeats. He gets several blossoms
in a frame. Pretty, if you like that sort of photograph.

When asked how long he keeps the shutter open, his reply was "Until
I'm done".

You can go quite a while if you think about it. Since it really is
separate exposures (in the dark, with the shutter open there is no
exposure - not enough to worry about, anyway).

So each rocket sets its own exposure in that area of the film.

The way I recall it is f/8 @ ISO 100.

I did it a couple times using a ball cap for a shutter and a remote to
hold the shutter open.

After getting a feel for the "scene" I would typically allow 3 "sets" of
shots into the frame while it was open and then close the shutter and
move on.

If it's a calm evening and the smoke builds up, then you do have to
reduce the shutter time as the smoke reflects other light sources and
rocket exhaust which reduces the contrast somewhat.

The handout he gave after the presentation says he uses a tripod,
cable release, ISO 100, and exposure of f/8, f/11, or f/16. He
usually uses f/8. Also, manual focus is important or the auto focus
searches around too much.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

On 2011-06-29 17:27 , tony cooper wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:57:53 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

On 2011-06-29 16:40 , tony cooper wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:22:27 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

I recently sold a 1977. If I lease them I have
to get rid of them. I currently lease a car. It would have been
cheaper to buy it, but now I know I have to replace it. OTOH, I just
bought a car I expect to own for the next ten years.

Every car I buy is for 9 - 10 years.

A guy recently gave a presentation on fireworks photography at my
camera club. He uses a technique where he sets the camera to bulb,
holds a black card over the lens, removes the card when the firework
blossoms, re-covers the lens, and repeats. He gets several blossoms
in a frame. Pretty, if you like that sort of photograph.

When asked how long he keeps the shutter open, his reply was "Until
I'm done".

You can go quite a while if you think about it. Since it really is
separate exposures (in the dark, with the shutter open there is no
exposure - not enough to worry about, anyway).

So each rocket sets its own exposure in that area of the film.

The way I recall it is f/8 @ ISO 100.

I did it a couple times using a ball cap for a shutter and a remote to
hold the shutter open.

After getting a feel for the "scene" I would typically allow 3 "sets" of
shots into the frame while it was open and then close the shutter and
move on.

If it's a calm evening and the smoke builds up, then you do have to
reduce the shutter time as the smoke reflects other light sources and
rocket exhaust which reduces the contrast somewhat.

The handout he gave after the presentation says he uses a tripod,
cable release, ISO 100, and exposure of f/8, f/11, or f/16. He
usually uses f/8. Also, manual focus is important or the auto focus
searches around too much.

I rarely use AF (the other night at a wedding reception I had no choice
to use it. Dim and my eyesight ain't that sharp in dim light anymore).

Here's a couple (of the very few) I've done:

http://gallery.photo.net/photo/642698-lg.jpg

http://gallery.photo.net/photo/642676-lg.jpg

Much better if you can have a city or waterscape to shoot them with, of
course.

--
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On 6/29/11 1:30 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
On 2011-06-28 23:15 , John McWilliams wrote:
On 6/28/11 PDT 7:15 PM, Alan Browne wrote:

The only smart (money) way to acquire a car is to pay the most you can
in down payment, to pay off the car as quickly as possible and finally
to use that same car as long as economically possible.

The "only way", huh?? You presume the choices are lease or finance. What
about self finance? Opportunity cost of funds lost in downpayment?

The cheapest (smart money) way to buy a car is to pay for it quickly at
the best negotiated price.

Best price- no argument.

But cheapest way? Until you grasp that there are conditions under which
and outright cash purchase (which, will you not concede, is the quickest
way to pay for it?) may not be the smartest choice for an individual not
named AB, the rest of your argument is baseless.

On 6/29/11 1:53 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
On 2011-06-29 16:40 , tony cooper wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:22:27 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

I recently sold a 1977. If I lease them I have
to get rid of them. I currently lease a car. It would have been
cheaper to buy it, but now I know I have to replace it. OTOH, I just
bought a car I expect to own for the next ten years.

Every car I buy is for 9 - 10 years.

A guy recently gave a presentation on fireworks photography at my
camera club. He uses a technique where he sets the camera to bulb,
holds a black card over the lens, removes the card when the firework
blossoms, re-covers the lens, and repeats. He gets several blossoms
in a frame. Pretty, if you like that sort of photograph.

When asked how long he keeps the shutter open, his reply was "Until
I'm done".

I feel the same way about trading cars. No set number of years, just
"When I'm ready".

It's a way to do it. I don't like cars and I despise maintaining them.
So I buy a reliable brand (Honda) which needs minimal maintenance over
10 years and ~180,000 km. After that the rust starts up (Quebec uses a
lot of salt on the roads) and other things begin to fail.

So then I buy a new one.

I believe the above formula is about as stingy as I can get and have a
reliable, always starts at -35°C car that handles well and is efficient.

If I bought a 1 year old Honda and drove it for 9 years I'd avoid the
initial steep depreciation too. I just dislike not knowing how a
previous owner treated the car.

This makes sense. But it doesn't support your "smartest way is to always
purchase outright for cash" as a rule for everyone.

On 6/29/11 2:27 PM, tony cooper wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:57:53 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

On 2011-06-29 16:40 , tony cooper wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:22:27 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

I recently sold a 1977. If I lease them I have
to get rid of them. I currently lease a car. It would have been
cheaper to buy it, but now I know I have to replace it. OTOH, I just
bought a car I expect to own for the next ten years.

Every car I buy is for 9 - 10 years.

A guy recently gave a presentation on fireworks photography at my
camera club. He uses a technique where he sets the camera to bulb,
holds a black card over the lens, removes the card when the firework
blossoms, re-covers the lens, and repeats. He gets several blossoms
in a frame. Pretty, if you like that sort of photograph.

When asked how long he keeps the shutter open, his reply was "Until
I'm done".

You can go quite a while if you think about it. Since it really is
separate exposures (in the dark, with the shutter open there is no
exposure - not enough to worry about, anyway).

So each rocket sets its own exposure in that area of the film.

The way I recall it is f/8 @ ISO 100.

I did it a couple times using a ball cap for a shutter and a remote to
hold the shutter open.

After getting a feel for the "scene" I would typically allow 3 "sets" of
shots into the frame while it was open and then close the shutter and
move on.

If it's a calm evening and the smoke builds up, then you do have to
reduce the shutter time as the smoke reflects other light sources and
rocket exhaust which reduces the contrast somewhat.

The handout he gave after the presentation says he uses a tripod,
cable release, ISO 100, and exposure of f/8, f/11, or f/16. He
usually uses f/8. Also, manual focus is important or the auto focus
searches around too much.

Oh, yeah, esp. the latter point. Thanks for the black card reminder-
sometimes there's more ambient light even in "pitch black" skies than we
think, and if you're holding open 30 seconds or so to catch multiple
bursts, you may have undesirable effects.