Hard to break into National Geographic's staff.

On Aug 12, 5:37 pm, wrote:
On Aug 12, 5:15 pm, Rita Ä Berkowitz ritaberk2O04 @aol.com wrote:

wrote:
Nope! I have proof of who it is! This witness has seen him in
action:

http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/80235876/original

We miss our baby Spike! Come on Bret get out there and get some more Spike
pictures.

Rita

You got that right Rita! I miss Spike! It's been so darn hot in the
south that even Spikey has taken refuge where there is air
conditioning.
Helen

As much as Spike is missed, IMHO, it's best to wait until the heat
wave breaks. Standing out in the sun in that heat is too dangerous.

"Annika1980" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 11, 7:46 pm, Rita Ä Berkowitz ritaberk2O04 @aol.com wrote:

You are missing the point. It's all about simple economics. Why should
they hire anymore on-staff photographers for their limited on assignment
jobs when they can go to pbase, flicker, photo.net and other photo hosting
sites and offer the photographer $5 and a years NG subscription for truly
spectacular wildlife photos instead of some over-Photoshopped crap?

NG doesn't work that way.
Maybe in your drunken stupor you don't understand the word
"assignment?" They don't simply go out and buy nice photos.
They grant an assignment which includes not only the pics, but a story
line as well. So a prospective NG photographer should be a good writer
as well.

Yes....My family had a friend who was a professional photographer....He did
picture stories for magazines....He married a writer who had published a few
books of her own, and ghosted a few others......

"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
William Graham wrote:
"Rita Ä Berkowitz" ritaberk2O04 @aol.com wrote in message
...
William Graham wrote:

I wrote to National Geographic asking them whether they would consider
hiring good quality wildlife photographers, and this is the response I
received....
What makes you think that NG is actually going to hire anyone for
on-staff
when there are so many ways for them to get cheap images? There are
lots of
great wildlife photos in stock agencies as well as on other photo
hosting
sites on the internet that can be had for pennies. Plus, NG wants real
photos not some Photoshop creations that scream painted in fakeness.

Well, here is my answer to that, and my answer to the NG answer, too.....

If you were a brick contractor, and I asked you if you needed any more
bricklayers, and you replied: We're sorry, but NG only lays 100,000
bricks
every year, and we already have 152 bricklayers, which is more than
enough
to lay all those bricks, so we are not accepting any applications at this
time....Then I would understand your answer perfectly.
But, in fact, we are not talking about bricklayers here....We are
talking about artists. So, what I want you to understand is that it
doesn't
really matter how many photographers you have already on your staff, or
waiting in the wings. - The fact is, I know one who is better than all
those
152 (or howevermany) that you have........(some unimportant details
deleted)

NG photogs are not merely "photogs" but mostly degreed experts in various
sciences and arts outside of "photography". Fact is that there are more
talented photographers than there are need for them.

If your buddy has talent that outshines the competition, then he will in
time rise as long as he applies himself. His destiny is likely not at NG.

Cheers,
Alan

Well, he could do what I do with my arrangements....I do them, and send them
to groups to perform them. None of the groups I have ever sent an
arrangement to have ever performed any of them, to the best of my
knowledge.....Whether they performed them and didn't like them, or just
dumped them in the circular storage before they ever tried them out I will
never know....None of them have ever written me back to even acknowledge
that they ever received them....So the conclusion that I have drawn from
this is that being an arranger of music is just like being a professional
photographer.....A business that it is impossible to break into unless you
do everything yourself.....Write it, and perform it with your own group and
in your own auditorium, or night club. You have to do the whole thing
yourself. If you want to be a professional photographer, you have to own and
operate your own studio and do everything from scratch....Even your own
advertising. Or, if you want your work published in a magazine, you better
learn how to write, edit, & publish magazines, and sell them to the public
yourself. - Probably at a loss for years and years until your distribution
list is large enough so Kodak or somebody finally puts an ad in one of your
issues......How good you are at whatever it is you do has, (apparently)
nothing to do with the issue....It's how pushy you are, and how good a
salesman you are that counts.....You can even steal your wife's work and
become famous if you are a good enough salesman/thief.
It makes me wonder how many really good artists there are who will never
become known to anyone at all, because all they are good at is their
particular art, and they have no salesman abilities at all......

William Graham wrote:

It makes me wonder how many really good artists there are who will never
become known to anyone at all, because all they are good at is their
particular art, and they have no salesman abilities at all......

Yep, probably a whole lot. Especially if they are able to put the time
into it.

--
Paul Furman Photography
http://edgehill.net
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

On Aug 12, 9:14 am, wrote:
On Aug 11, 6:19 pm, "William Graham" wrote:



I wrote to National Geographic asking them whether they would consider
hiring good quality wildlife photographers, and this is the response I
received....----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:49 PM

Dear Mr. Graham: Thank you for your email to the National Geographic
Society.

Photography jobs on staff are very rare. National Geographic does use
freelance photographers, but to be frank, it is extremely difficult to
obtain a first assignment for the magazine. The magazine does not accept
any unsolicited submissions. The editors meet regularly to discuss
possible story ideas. If an idea is decided upon, the article is then
assigned, usually to someone with whom we've worked before or to someone
with many years of outstanding work in the field of journalism. Because
there is a large investment behind each National Geographic article, we
are conservative in choosing writers and photographers, opting for those
with well-established reputations. At this time we have many more
freelance photographers than we do assignments.

If this all sounds negative, we apologize. It is, however, a response
dictated by a rather precise goal for the style of the magazine, coupled
with the limited number of stories we are able to publish each year.

I am sorry that we could not offer more encouraging news regarding your
friend, but we appreciate your thinking of us.
Sincerely,
CL Stroud
Communications
National Geographic Society

Bill, your letter to NG is highly commendable. I salute you sir! I
am certain I know who you are talking about and I couldn't agree
more. In my opinion it's their loss.
Helen

Hi Helen... Sorry to burst your bubble but...
Photography by itself will not get a foot in the door with any
magazine publisher. You need the whole 10 yards. Someone able to write
the text is unlikely to team up with someone looking to get
recognition for the photos so unless you can write and shoot, getting
into "the magazine" trade is next to impossible. I really though Bret
was heading towards sponsorship to publish some "coffee table" book
but he says not so.

http://www.lulu.com is worth exploring. There is (well in AU anyway)
plenty of interest in limited edition coffee table books with pretty
much nothing but really nice photos in them. Maybe a few lines of text
but photos are the main content. This time of year I print about 5000,
Limited Edition calendars using my photos and after Christmas, put my
A3 size bound "coffee table" books of photos on sale where the
calendars sold well. Why not explore this avenue first? A successful
Lulu publication might not be rubbing shoulders with Rupert Murdock
but it's a fine place to start a late life career in Photography. Lulu
sell for you too. Apart from the cost of publication you have to pay
up front, you could have an income from Lulu's sales too.

A really nice A3+ digital print system (colour laser printer) is
under 5 grand AUD. A bit of binding gear or get friendly with an idle
book binder and you could stop waiting for the grass to grow and pay
for some new camera gear!

Doug

On Aug 12, 9:16 pm, DMac wrote:
On Aug 12, 9:14 am, wrote:

On Aug 11, 6:19 pm, "William Graham" wrote:

I wrote to National Geographic asking them whether they would consider
hiring good quality wildlife photographers, and this is the response I
received....----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:49 PM

Dear Mr. Graham: Thank you for your email to the National Geographic
Society.

Photography jobs on staff are very rare. National Geographic does use
freelance photographers, but to be frank, it is extremely difficult to
obtain a first assignment for the magazine. The magazine does not accept
any unsolicited submissions. The editors meet regularly to discuss
possible story ideas. If an idea is decided upon, the article is then
assigned, usually to someone with whom we've worked before or to someone
with many years of outstanding work in the field of journalism. Because
there is a large investment behind each National Geographic article, we
are conservative in choosing writers and photographers, opting for those
with well-established reputations. At this time we have many more
freelance photographers than we do assignments.

If this all sounds negative, we apologize. It is, however, a response
dictated by a rather precise goal for the style of the magazine, coupled
with the limited number of stories we are able to publish each year.

I am sorry that we could not offer more encouraging news regarding your
friend, but we appreciate your thinking of us.
Sincerely,
CL Stroud
Communications
National Geographic Society

Bill, your letter to NG is highly commendable. I salute you sir! I
am certain I know who you are talking about and I couldn't agree
more. In my opinion it's their loss.
Helen

Hi Helen... Sorry to burst your bubble but...
Photography by itself will not get a foot in the door with any
magazine publisher. You need the whole 10 yards. Someone able to write
the text is unlikely to team up with someone looking to get
recognition for the photos so unless you can write and shoot, getting
into "the magazine" trade is next to impossible. I really though Bret
was heading towards sponsorship to publish some "coffee table" book
but he says not so.

http://www.lulu.comis worth exploring. There is (well in AU anyway)
plenty of interest in limited edition coffee table books with pretty
much nothing but really nice photos in them. Maybe a few lines of text
but photos are the main content. This time of year I print about 5000,
Limited Edition calendars using my photos and after Christmas, put my
A3 size bound "coffee table" books of photos on sale where the
calendars sold well. Why not explore this avenue first? A successful
Lulu publication might not be rubbing shoulders with Rupert Murdock
but it's a fine place to start a late life career in Photography. Lulu
sell for you too. Apart from the cost of publication you have to pay
up front, you could have an income from Lulu's sales too.

A really nice A3+ digital print system (colour laser printer) is
under 5 grand AUD. A bit of binding gear or get friendly with an idle
book binder and you could stop waiting for the grass to grow and pay
for some new camera gear!

Doug


I believe National Geographic depends upon scientists who are experts
in their own special field to write the article and take the pics for
the magazine. IMHO I think they try to keep the cost down by not
hiring an expert in photography as well.
Your website looks promising for anyone interested in publishing.
Helen

On Aug 12, 9:16 pm, DMac wrote:

I really though Bret
was heading towards sponsorship to publish some "coffee table" book
but he says not so.

http://www.lulu.com is worth exploring.

I'd love to do a coffee table book and probably will some day, in a
very limited production run. My attorney friend even offered to
bankroll the whole deal on the whim that we could sell them. But when
I told him how much it would cost, he was less enthusiastic.

Self-publishing is a nice way to get your pics into a book, but 99% of
the time it's a money-loser like 99% of other photography books.
The exception would be a wedding book where you could command a high-
dollar fee. But nobody is going to spend a couple of hundred bucks
for a collection of photographs unless they were taken by HCB.

Lulu is cheaper than some, but even a good quality calendar will cost
you around $20. How are you gonna make money at that price when you
still have to worry about marketing them and selling them?

On Aug 11, 6:19 pm, "William Graham" wrote:
I wrote to National Geographic asking them whether they would consider
hiring good quality wildlife photographers, and this is the response I
received....



----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:49 PM

Dear Mr. Graham: Thank you for your email to the National Geographic
Society.

Photography jobs on staff are very rare. National Geographic does use
freelance photographers, but to be frank, it is extremely difficult to
obtain a first assignment for the magazine. The magazine does not accept
any unsolicited submissions. The editors meet regularly to discuss
possible story ideas. If an idea is decided upon, the article is then
assigned, usually to someone with whom we've worked before or to someone
with many years of outstanding work in the field of journalism. Because
there is a large investment behind each National Geographic article, we
are conservative in choosing writers and photographers, opting for those
with well-established reputations. At this time we have many more
freelance photographers than we do assignments.

If this all sounds negative, we apologize. It is, however, a response
dictated by a rather precise goal for the style of the magazine, coupled
with the limited number of stories we are able to publish each year.

I am sorry that we could not offer more encouraging news regarding your
friend, but we appreciate your thinking of us.
Sincerely,
CL Stroud
Communications
National Geographic Society- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bill,
Several years ago NG told all its staff photographers that they
would have to sign a "work for hire" contract with NG. This was in
effect taking all the work of the photographer away from the
photographer.Any extra income they might be able to generate in the
way of using their work to gain other jobs or even sell their own
photographs. Except for one or two who signed the agreement, the rest
walked. A "work for hire" contract gives all the rights to NG or who
ever holds it. The photographer has no rights to the image if they
sign this type of agreement. They get a flat fee for the assignment
and no way to earn any other money from their images.
Now NG has one maybe two staff photographers and a lot of
freelancers who will do the work for not much. Most of the stories are
work by two people. A writer who interacts with the subjects or has a
very good knowledge of the subject. And the photographer. They work as
a team to get the story. Sometimes the writer will guide the
photographer to certain images. Sometimes the photographers images
will guide the writers words.

Either way it is looked at, working at NG isn't as glamorous as it
once was. But then again no job really isn't that glamorous when you
are doing the job. What ever your choice, good luck.


Draco


Getting even isn't good enough.


Doing better does.

In article ,
William Graham wrote:
"Kinon O'Cann" wrote in message
news:Yatvi.9353$eb4.5464@trndny08...
Always has been the case. It's a very desireable job, and the competition
has driven incomes down to the point where if you don't do it for love,
you have no other reason. Unless you're one of the top tier shooters,
you'll starve.

I think that's the case with any art. It certainly is true with painting and
music.....They aren't looking for artists....They are looking for pushy
salesmen who can push harder than everyone else......Or, at least, that's
who they hire, so that's the bottom line......

At least for music (I don't know anything about the 'painting scene'),
that depends on how much the audience values content. If the audience goes
for the public image of the artist and accepts contents any competent
artist can deliver then yes, the best best salesmen will win.

Some time ago I went to concert and I was suprised how badly a rather
famous archestra performed a work of a famous composer. It was not that
the orchestra was bad, pieces from a different composer were excellent.

That concert reminded me how good those people a they are really
specialized in certain subjects and cannot deliver the same quality just
everywhere.


--
That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
-- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

Draco wrote:
On Aug 11, 6:19 pm, "William Graham" wrote:

I wrote to National Geographic asking them whether they would consider
hiring good quality wildlife photographers, and this is the response I
received....



----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:49 PM

Dear Mr. Graham: Thank you for your email to the National Geographic
Society.

Photography jobs on staff are very rare. National Geographic does use
freelance photographers, but to be frank, it is extremely difficult to
obtain a first assignment for the magazine. The magazine does not accept
any unsolicited submissions. The editors meet regularly to discuss
possible story ideas. If an idea is decided upon, the article is then
assigned, usually to someone with whom we've worked before or to someone
with many years of outstanding work in the field of journalism. Because
there is a large investment behind each National Geographic article, we
are conservative in choosing writers and photographers, opting for those
with well-established reputations. At this time we have many more
freelance photographers than we do assignments.

If this all sounds negative, we apologize. It is, however, a response
dictated by a rather precise goal for the style of the magazine, coupled
with the limited number of stories we are able to publish each year.

I am sorry that we could not offer more encouraging news regarding your
friend, but we appreciate your thinking of us.
Sincerely,
CL Stroud
Communications
National Geographic Society- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Bill,
Several years ago NG told all its staff photographers that they
would have to sign a "work for hire" contract with NG. This was in
effect taking all the work of the photographer away from the
photographer.Any extra income they might be able to generate in the
way of using their work to gain other jobs or even sell their own
photographs. Except for one or two who signed the agreement, the rest
walked. A "work for hire" contract gives all the rights to NG or who
ever holds it. The photographer has no rights to the image if they
sign this type of agreement. They get a flat fee for the assignment
and no way to earn any other money from their images.
Now NG has one maybe two staff photographers and a lot of
freelancers who will do the work for not much. Most of the stories are
work by two people. A writer who interacts with the subjects or has a
very good knowledge of the subject. And the photographer. They work as
a team to get the story. Sometimes the writer will guide the
photographer to certain images. Sometimes the photographers images
will guide the writers words.

Either way it is looked at, working at NG isn't as glamorous as it
once was. But then again no job really isn't that glamorous when you
are doing the job. What ever your choice, good luck.


Draco


Getting even isn't good enough.


Doing better does.


This topic got me looking around on the subject and I found that
National Geographic is running a photo contest right now where you could
end up winning a DSLR and have your picture published in a future issue
of the magazine.

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/...o-contest.html

While it obviously isn't a steady job, but I guess you would get some
bragging rights out of getting you picture in the magazine.

ALV