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Finding Bulk Chemicals
I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores. What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite? Thanks, Mike |
#2
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Finding Bulk Chemicals
Mike wrote:
: I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For : example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores. : What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite? It would depend largely on where "local" is. Here in the Chicago area I would imagine it would be easier to find a lot of the chemicals locally then in a farm town with a population of 200. In any case I would recommend that you take a look at photograpers formulary. -- ------------------- Keep working millions on welfare depend on you |
#3
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Finding Bulk Chemicals
In article ,
Mike wrote: I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores. What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite? Thanks, Mike To quote one of the best of our own. http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/bulkchem.htm -- "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 greg_____photo(dot)com |
#4
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Finding Bulk Chemicals
Frank Pittel wrote:
Mike wrote: : I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For : example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores. : What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite? It would depend largely on where "local" is. Here in the Chicago area I would imagine it would be easier to find a lot of the chemicals locally then in a farm town with a population of 200. Might depend on the chemical I bet. Farmers buy things in bulk all the time. The question would be what are the alternative uses for the chemicals? Sodium thiosfulfate is supposedly used to lower clorine levels in large indoor pools. It's a different form so you need to adjust the amount used. The grocery store tends to have a few things. I wouldn't be suprised if a farm supply place had some things to. Nick -- --------------------------------------- "Digital the new ice fishing" --------------------------------------- |
#5
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Finding Bulk Chemicals
This is an interesting site with some cross-reference information:
http://www.jackspcs.com/ On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:15:49 GMT, Mike wrote: I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores. What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite? Thanks, Mike Craig Schroeder craig nospam craigschroeder com |
#6
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Finding Bulk Chemicals
From my Photo Clips collection. Whatever happened to Maxim Muir?
C.1993 maxim.M.Muir The Gamma .55 handouts in the past dealt extensively with mixing various b&w photochemicals from scratch using bulk chemistry. It is a fortunate thing indeed that many "household"chemicals are also used in photography. I briefly discussed some of these in handout#2. I wish to enlarge that discussion further by giving more information on each chemical and the substantial savings (in most cases ) that can be made by substitution of "grocery store" quality chemicals. Let it be said from the onset that I've not encountered any visible problems in using these lower grade chemicals with either film or print developers. Chemicals are available in different levels of purity with designations such as A.C.S.Reagent (extreme purity-needed for analytical laboratory procedure to minimize problems with chemical reaction time, precipitation of trace metals which upset solution percentage concentration etc.).This is the most expensive grade and is excessive purity for photographic purposes.N.F.and U.S.P. grade-Below reagent grade-usually the purity of so called Photo-Grade chemicals as supplied by Eastman Kodak and others. Technical or Commercial Grade- Adequate for all pedestrian uses. Sometimes, tech grade chemicals have a different(usually lower) percentage of active chemical per weight or per volume. Common examples aAmmonia-Lab grade typically is a 28% solution whilst store ammonia is usually around a 10% solution. Hydrogen Peroxide-Reagent grade is usually 37% by volume, while drugstore solutions are a 3% solution. These differences need to be compensated for when substitutions are made. For the most part, the reducing agents are the chemicals that are normally not supplied in tech grade form, N.F. or U.S.P grade being common. This explains in part why the reducing agents are by far the most expensive component of any developing formula. Now to the chemicals themselves. Acetic Acid The chemical used universally for preparing stopbath. Acetic acid as supplied by Kodak in their Indicator Stopbath is so called Glacial or 99% strength.Acetic acid happens to be another name for vinegar, albeit in a more highly purified form.Store white distilled vinegar comes in a 5% solution. To make a working stopbath, take 1 part white vinegar and dilute with 2.33 parts water. This is a 1.5% solution, typically recommended for both film and paper. The substitution will save you money if you usually buy stopbath in one pint concentrates. The one gallon concentrate of Kodak Indicator is actually cheaper on a per volume basis , but the vinegar is always available at a moments notice in an emergency. Borax Purchased as "20 Mule Team" product, this is the very same Sodium Tetraborate decahydrate Kodak sells for $8.00 a lb.(as compared to the store product for $2.50 for five lbs.) Used as a mild accelerator in film developers (D76). This can also be used in tandem with Sodium Hydroxide (Red Devil Lye) to make sodium metaborate (aka Kodalk). 1 part sodium hydroxide mixed in water with five parts borax=1 part sodium metaborate. Used to make solution B in the PMK formula, as a prewet for film to insure even development, and as an anti-staining agent with a selenium toning bath. A useful chemical to have around. It is best to remove it from its box and store in resealable containers as it gives up its water to the air. Sodium Hydroxide See above description of borax. $1.49 a lb vs, $8.00 a lb. for Kodak product. Sodium Carbonate Comes in stores packaged as "Arm and Hammer Washing Soda" this is the decahydrated form of the chemical, meaning it has more molecules of water attached to its formula then the usually used Sodium Carbonate Monohydrate. To substitute, multiply the amount of monohydrate specified by 2.33 to arrive at correct amount of washing soda.When buying, look for the unscented product in the yellow box. Although the perfume in the blue box variety does not seem to affect print quality, I personally feel funny processing my "pretty smelling" prints! Household Ammonia and Hydrogen Peroxide These are used together to make Kodak's HE-1 hypo eliminating formula. This is designed to convert the difficult to remove thiosulfate complexes to a sulfate(either sodium or ammonium sulfate, depending on whether you use a conventional or a rapid fixer.) which is inert and will not hurt the longevity of the print. Kodak HE-1 water-500ml. Hydrogen peroxide 3%(drugstore)-125 ml. Ammonia-30ml to 70 ml. water to make 3% solution Combine these in order shown in the water. Make up to final volume of 1 litre. After fixing, wash prints about 30 minutes. Place prints in this bath for 6 minutes with agitation . Some feel that by adding 1 gram of potassium bromide to the formula prevents any unwanted image tone change. Also, some papers exhibit a yellowing of the whites with use. To clear this, put prints following HE-1 into a bath of 2% sodium sulfite, or Hypoclear, or Permawash. Wash prints an additional 30 minutes . Alum Cake alum in the grocery stores is aluminum sulfate.Used as a substitute for potassium alum if you mix your own hardening fixer. Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) will also work in this capacity. Denatured and Ethyl Alcohol Used to help dissolve chemicals which are recalcitrant, namely Benzotriazole and Phenidone. The denatured product is fine for this purpose,although be sure the denaturants used with the available brand are not incompatible with photographic emulsions.Use 100-200ml.to dissolve the required amount of phenidone or benzotiazole,and add this to your final stock solution. Pure ethanol(Everclear Grain Alcohol of frat party fame!)can be used as a film cleaner. When it is diluted to a 90% solution with distilled water(9 parts alcohol to 1 part water) it can be used as a rapid film drier. This also behaves as a surface tension reliever,and thusly it eliminates the need for Photoflo. Citric Acid Used to make odor free stopbath (15 grams to 1 litre water). Also used to help minimize stains with Amidol paper developers. Available from drug stores for about $8.00 a pound. Also can be substituted for sodium metabisulfite in acid non-hardening fixer. Kodak F24B non-hardening fixer water-750 ml. Sodium thiosulfate(penta)-240 grams Sodium sulfite(anhyd)-10 grams Citric Acid-22 grams Water to make 1 litre Household Bleach (Chlorox etc.) Used to remove developer oxidation stains from trays, to remove algae from print washers, and to clear fiberglass drying screens of trace fixer buildup. Keep away from acid stopbath, unless recreating World War 1 gas attacks in your darkroom is your idea of fun and excitement! I may have overlooked a few more, but these are the majority of the most heavily utilized darkroom chemicals which are as near as your friendly grocer or pharmacist! |
#7
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Finding Bulk Chemicals
Seong:
Careful, Kodak and the died in the wool archivalists no longer use hypo eliminator. Sleeping dogs... -Lew "seog" wrote in message news:ng0vf.8082$gq4.2782@trndny04... From my Photo Clips collection. Whatever happened to Maxim Muir? C.1993 maxim.M.Muir The Gamma .55 handouts in the past dealt extensively with mixing various b&w photochemicals from scratch using bulk chemistry. It is a fortunate thing indeed that many "household"chemicals are also used in photography. I briefly discussed some of these in handout#2. I wish to enlarge that discussion further by giving more information on each chemical and the substantial savings (in most cases ) that can be made by substitution of "grocery store" quality chemicals. Let it be said from the onset that I've not encountered any visible problems in using these lower grade chemicals with either film or print developers. Chemicals are available in different levels of purity with designations such as A.C.S.Reagent (extreme purity-needed for analytical laboratory procedure to minimize problems with chemical reaction time, precipitation of trace metals which upset solution percentage concentration etc.).This is the most expensive grade and is excessive purity for photographic purposes.N.F.and U.S.P. grade-Below reagent grade-usually the purity of so called Photo-Grade chemicals as supplied by Eastman Kodak and others. Technical or Commercial Grade- Adequate for all pedestrian uses. Sometimes, tech grade chemicals have a different(usually lower) percentage of active chemical per weight or per volume. Common examples aAmmonia-Lab grade typically is a 28% solution whilst store ammonia is usually around a 10% solution. Hydrogen Peroxide-Reagent grade is usually 37% by volume, while drugstore solutions are a 3% solution. These differences need to be compensated for when substitutions are made. For the most part, the reducing agents are the chemicals that are normally not supplied in tech grade form, N.F. or U.S.P grade being common. This explains in part why the reducing agents are by far the most expensive component of any developing formula. Now to the chemicals themselves. Acetic Acid The chemical used universally for preparing stopbath. Acetic acid as supplied by Kodak in their Indicator Stopbath is so called Glacial or 99% strength.Acetic acid happens to be another name for vinegar, albeit in a more highly purified form.Store white distilled vinegar comes in a 5% solution. To make a working stopbath, take 1 part white vinegar and dilute with 2.33 parts water. This is a 1.5% solution, typically recommended for both film and paper. The substitution will save you money if you usually buy stopbath in one pint concentrates. The one gallon concentrate of Kodak Indicator is actually cheaper on a per volume basis , but the vinegar is always available at a moments notice in an emergency. Borax Purchased as "20 Mule Team" product, this is the very same Sodium Tetraborate decahydrate Kodak sells for $8.00 a lb.(as compared to the store product for $2.50 for five lbs.) Used as a mild accelerator in film developers (D76). This can also be used in tandem with Sodium Hydroxide (Red Devil Lye) to make sodium metaborate (aka Kodalk). 1 part sodium hydroxide mixed in water with five parts borax=1 part sodium metaborate. Used to make solution B in the PMK formula, as a prewet for film to insure even development, and as an anti-staining agent with a selenium toning bath. A useful chemical to have around. It is best to remove it from its box and store in resealable containers as it gives up its water to the air. Sodium Hydroxide See above description of borax. $1.49 a lb vs, $8.00 a lb. for Kodak product. Sodium Carbonate Comes in stores packaged as "Arm and Hammer Washing Soda" this is the decahydrated form of the chemical, meaning it has more molecules of water attached to its formula then the usually used Sodium Carbonate Monohydrate. To substitute, multiply the amount of monohydrate specified by 2.33 to arrive at correct amount of washing soda.When buying, look for the unscented product in the yellow box. Although the perfume in the blue box variety does not seem to affect print quality, I personally feel funny processing my "pretty smelling" prints! Household Ammonia and Hydrogen Peroxide These are used together to make Kodak's HE-1 hypo eliminating formula. This is designed to convert the difficult to remove thiosulfate complexes to a sulfate(either sodium or ammonium sulfate, depending on whether you use a conventional or a rapid fixer.) which is inert and will not hurt the longevity of the print. Kodak HE-1 water-500ml. Hydrogen peroxide 3%(drugstore)-125 ml. Ammonia-30ml to 70 ml. water to make 3% solution Combine these in order shown in the water. Make up to final volume of 1 litre. After fixing, wash prints about 30 minutes. Place prints in this bath for 6 minutes with agitation . Some feel that by adding 1 gram of potassium bromide to the formula prevents any unwanted image tone change. Also, some papers exhibit a yellowing of the whites with use. To clear this, put prints following HE-1 into a bath of 2% sodium sulfite, or Hypoclear, or Permawash. Wash prints an additional 30 minutes . Alum Cake alum in the grocery stores is aluminum sulfate.Used as a substitute for potassium alum if you mix your own hardening fixer. Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) will also work in this capacity. Denatured and Ethyl Alcohol Used to help dissolve chemicals which are recalcitrant, namely Benzotriazole and Phenidone. The denatured product is fine for this purpose,although be sure the denaturants used with the available brand are not incompatible with photographic emulsions.Use 100-200ml.to dissolve the required amount of phenidone or benzotiazole,and add this to your final stock solution. Pure ethanol(Everclear Grain Alcohol of frat party fame!)can be used as a film cleaner. When it is diluted to a 90% solution with distilled water(9 parts alcohol to 1 part water) it can be used as a rapid film drier. This also behaves as a surface tension reliever,and thusly it eliminates the need for Photoflo. Citric Acid Used to make odor free stopbath (15 grams to 1 litre water). Also used to help minimize stains with Amidol paper developers. Available from drug stores for about $8.00 a pound. Also can be substituted for sodium metabisulfite in acid non-hardening fixer. Kodak F24B non-hardening fixer water-750 ml. Sodium thiosulfate(penta)-240 grams Sodium sulfite(anhyd)-10 grams Citric Acid-22 grams Water to make 1 litre Household Bleach (Chlorox etc.) Used to remove developer oxidation stains from trays, to remove algae from print washers, and to clear fiberglass drying screens of trace fixer buildup. Keep away from acid stopbath, unless recreating World War 1 gas attacks in your darkroom is your idea of fun and excitement! I may have overlooked a few more, but these are the majority of the most heavily utilized darkroom chemicals which are as near as your friendly grocer or pharmacist! |
#8
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Finding Bulk Chemicals
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:15:49 +0000, Mike wrote:
I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores. What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite? Retail photo stores that cater to professionals is where I used to buy all my chemicals, but I haven't mixed from scratch in years. Why don't you check to see if you have any chemical supply houses nearby? Check schools', colleges' or universities' photo or chemistry departments. They might give or sell you small amounts. Of course, there is always mail order. Try these two places: http://www.photoformulary.com/ http://www.calumetphoto.com/ USP (United States Pure) is good enough for all photo work. Stefan |
#9
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Finding Bulk Chemicals
Mike wrote:
... basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. Make sure to check your local Wine and Beer Homebrew outlets. Dan |
#10
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Finding Bulk Chemicals
In article ,
Mike writes: I'm wondering which of the basic bulk chemicals I can find locally. For example, I've heard that ascorbic acid can be found at health food stores. What about things like Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite? Seog has posted a very good summary of most of the chemicals I know can be obtained locally. I have just a few oddball additions: - Acetaminophen -- This active ingredient in Tylenol is related to para aminophenol, the developing agent in Rodinal. It's possible to create a Rodinal-like developer from acetaminophen, lye, and one or two other items. Check http://www.apug.org/forums/showthrea...1&page=4&pp=10 for one discussion of this, but there are other formulas. - Ascorbic acid -- This is used in some newer formulas as a substitute for hydroquinone. It's sold as vitamin C, but be sure to get the powder, not the tablets. The cheapest source I know of is not local, though, but is The Chemistry Store (see below). Erythorbic acid can be used interchangeably for photographic purposes, and might be just a bit less expensive. Some formulas call for a less acidic variant, sodium ascorbate. This can be bought as such or made from ascorbic acid and sodium bicarbonate (see http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html). - Boric acid -- This is the main ingredient in some roach powders. Bonide Roach Powder is supposedly 99% boric acid, but I've not seen it locally, so I can't verify this from personal experience. - Coffee -- Several formulas, most of which go by the name "caffeinol," use coffee as a developing agent. IIRC, instant crystals are usually specified. - Potassium hydroxide -- If you've got any craft stores that cater to soap makers in your area, you may be able to find potassium hydroxide there. - Propylene glycol -- This substance is used as a solvent in a few formulas, such as Gainer's PC-Glycol. It's the main ingredient in "eco-friendly" anti-freeze, and I've successfully used that product for compounding PC-Glycol. An automotive anti-freeze has other components, though, so using this product as a straight substitute can be a gamble. I've heard that propylene glycol is also widely used in veterinary medicine, so you could check with some local vets. - Sodium carbonate -- As Seog says, this is available in monohydrate form as Arm & Hammer Washing Soda. I've seen claims that pH Plus (a swimming pool product) is the anhydrous form. - Sodium chloride -- This is table salt. Be sure to use the NON-IODIZED form if you buy it locally for photographic purposes. - Sodium metaborate -- You can make 100g of this by mixing 69.2g of borax and 14.5g of sodium hydroxide. (In practice you'd do this in solution, of course.) - Sodium thiosulfate -- I keep hearing that this is used as a swimming pool chemical, but I've not seen it in local Target or similar stores' swimming pool areas. Maybe a specialty pool shop would have it, but I've not checked yet. - Distilled water -- This can be found in grocery stores, drug stores, etc. Obvious, but worth mentioning. In practice, unless you use caffeinol or an acetaminophen-based formula, chances are you won't be able to make developers using nothing but grocery store chemicals. If you live in or near a big city, you might be able to find some critical items (metol, etc.) locally. I've used several mail-order outfits to buy chemistry: - Photographer's Formulary (http://www.photoformulary.com) -- This place has the widest selection but also the highest prices. B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com) sells many PF products as "special order" items, usually at a modest discount. - Art Craft (http://www.artcraftchemicals.com) -- Next to PF, AC probably has the best selection of photochemicals, and their prices are usually lower. They've also got a service where you provide a formula and AC will send you just the chemicals you need to make one batch. This is handy if you don't want to buy a lot of something just to try one formula. - Digital Truth (http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/rawchemicals.html) -- This outfit has a decent selection and lower prices than PF. They're also one of the few outfits that has Dimezone S (a phenidone variant that supposedly has a longer life in solution). - Tech Chem (http://www.techcheminc.com) -- I suspect this place is related to Digital Truth; they're located in the same town and have a very similar product list, although their prices differ slightly. - The Chemistry Store (http://www.chemistrystore.com) -- This outfit doesn't specialize in photochemicals, and so they lack a lot of items. They have the best prices I've seen on most of the items they do carry, though, such as ascorbic acid, citric acid, potassium carbonate, and sodium sulfite. Note that their shipping prices are a bit high, and they've got a per-order handling charge ($3, IIRC). Thus, if you order from TCS, you should buy a lot of things at once. The big problem with mail-order is that for cheap chemicals that are used in large quantities (like sodium thiosulfate), shipping charges can equal the cost of the chemical itself. Some chemicals (like sodium or potassium hydroxide) are likely to incur a hazardous product shipping surcharge. -- Rod Smith, http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking |
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