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Lith film emulation



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 21st 07, 07:35 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
piterengel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default Lith film emulation

Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need to try with a
qute common film to obtain very high contrasted pictures. I have Efke
KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a developer to
have extremely contrasted subjects?
Thanks all
P.

  #2  
Old October 21st 07, 10:36 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default Lith film emulation


"piterengel" wrote in message
ps.com...
Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need
to try with a
qute common film to obtain very high contrasted pictures.
I have Efke
KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a
developer to
have extremely contrasted subjects?
Thanks all
P.



The highest contrast is gotten using a lithographic
developer like Kodak D-85 which produces "infective"
development. However, D-85, and similar developers, use
Formaldehyde, which is nasty stuff. There are somewhat lower
contrast developers, like Kodak D-8, using Hydroxide, which
produce very high contrast but not quite what a true
lithographic developer gives. I don't think a lith developer
is needed unless you are doing true line work.
Lith film is still made but I don't know where to get it
outside of the US.
For pictorial purposes a print developer like Dektol
will give you quite a bit higher contrast on film than the
usual film developers but at the cost of being quite grainy.
Since print developers are cheap and easy to obtain I would
try one first to see if the contrast is high enough.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA




  #3  
Old October 21st 07, 11:23 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Jean-David Beyer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Lith film emulation

On 2007-10-21, Richard Knoppow wrote:

"piterengel" wrote in message
ps.com...
Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need
to try with a
qute common film to obtain very high contrasted pictures.
I have Efke
KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a
developer to
have extremely contrasted subjects?
Thanks all
P.



The highest contrast is gotten using a lithographic
developer like Kodak D-85 which produces "infective"
development. However, D-85, and similar developers, use
Formaldehyde, which is nasty stuff.


I use Kodak litho film (not much) and one of their litho developers.
It does not contain liquid formaldehyde, but paraformaldehyte that
is a related compound. J.T.Baker have this to say about it:

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p0154.htm

As far as I can tell, I have never had any trouble with the mixed
working strength developer.

There are somewhat lower
contrast developers, like Kodak D-8, using Hydroxide, which
produce very high contrast but not quite what a true
lithographic developer gives. I don't think a lith developer
is needed unless you are doing true line work.
Lith film is still made but I don't know where to get it
outside of the US.
For pictorial purposes a print developer like Dektol
will give you quite a bit higher contrast on film than the
usual film developers but at the cost of being quite grainy.
Since print developers are cheap and easy to obtain I would
try one first to see if the contrast is high enough.




--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 18:20:01 up 15 days, 1:56, 1 user, load average: 5.22, 5.55, 5.14
  #4  
Old October 22nd 07, 02:05 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default Lith film emulation


"Jean-David Beyer" wrote in
message .. .
On 2007-10-21, Richard Knoppow
wrote:

"piterengel" wrote in message
ps.com...
Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need
to try with a
qute common film to obtain very high contrasted
pictures.
I have Efke
KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a
developer to
have extremely contrasted subjects?
Thanks all
P.



The highest contrast is gotten using a lithographic
developer like Kodak D-85 which produces "infective"
development. However, D-85, and similar developers, use
Formaldehyde, which is nasty stuff.


I use Kodak litho film (not much) and one of their litho
developers.
It does not contain liquid formaldehyde, but
paraformaldehyte that
is a related compound. J.T.Baker have this to say about
it:

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p0154.htm

As far as I can tell, I have never had any trouble with
the mixed
working strength developer.

There are somewhat lower
contrast developers, like Kodak D-8, using Hydroxide,
which
produce very high contrast but not quite what a true
lithographic developer gives. I don't think a lith
developer
is needed unless you are doing true line work.
Lith film is still made but I don't know where to get
it
outside of the US.
For pictorial purposes a print developer like Dektol
will give you quite a bit higher contrast on film than
the
usual film developers but at the cost of being quite
grainy.
Since print developers are cheap and easy to obtain I
would
try one first to see if the contrast is high enough.




--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User
85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine
241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 18:20:01 up 15 days, 1:56, 1 user, load average:
5.22, 5.55, 5.14


Actually, D-85 uses paraformaldehyde, which is a
crystaline form and becomes formaldehyde in solution. It is
a two solution developer, the two parts being mixed just
before use. I don't know if there is a more environmentally
friendly substance that can be used in stead of the
paraformaldehyde. Its function in the developer is not as a
hardener but specifically to promote infectious developemt.
This causes dense areas to develop much more rapidly than
lower densities resulting in exagerated contrast. For the
most part lithographic developers were used for line work
where the negative needed to be either very high density or
clear. Lith developers are also currently used for lith
printing. This is a sort of special effect which has become
popular in the last decade or so. A Google search for lith
printing will give you lots of hits.
For just higher than normal contrast on pictorial film I
think less extreme developers will work fine. One can use
something like Kodak D-8 or D-11 but, as I mentioned before,
probably any print developer will be enough.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



  #5  
Old October 22nd 07, 07:43 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
piterengel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default Lith film emulation

On Oct 22, 3:05 pm, "Richard Knoppow" wrote:
"Jean-David Beyer" wrote in
omain...



On 2007-10-21, Richard Knoppow
wrote:


"piterengel" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need
to try with a
qute common film to obtain very high contrasted
pictures.
I have Efke
KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a
developer to
have extremely contrasted subjects?
Thanks all
P.


The highest contrast is gotten using a lithographic
developer like Kodak D-85 which produces "infective"
development. However, D-85, and similar developers, use
Formaldehyde, which is nasty stuff.


I use Kodak litho film (not much) and one of their litho
developers.
It does not contain liquid formaldehyde, but
paraformaldehyte that
is a related compound. J.T.Baker have this to say about
it:


http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p0154.htm


As far as I can tell, I have never had any trouble with
the mixed
working strength developer.


There are somewhat lower
contrast developers, like Kodak D-8, using Hydroxide,
which
produce very high contrast but not quite what a true
lithographic developer gives. I don't think a lith
developer
is needed unless you are doing true line work.
Lith film is still made but I don't know where to get
it
outside of the US.
For pictorial purposes a print developer like Dektol
will give you quite a bit higher contrast on film than
the
usual film developers but at the cost of being quite
grainy.
Since print developers are cheap and easy to obtain I
would
try one first to see if the contrast is high enough.


--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User
85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine
241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 18:20:01 up 15 days, 1:56, 1 user, load average:
5.22, 5.55, 5.14


Actually, D-85 uses paraformaldehyde, which is a
crystaline form and becomes formaldehyde in solution. It is
a two solution developer, the two parts being mixed just
before use. I don't know if there is a more environmentally
friendly substance that can be used in stead of the
paraformaldehyde. Its function in the developer is not as a
hardener but specifically to promote infectious developemt.
This causes dense areas to develop much more rapidly than
lower densities resulting in exagerated contrast. For the
most part lithographic developers were used for line work
where the negative needed to be either very high density or
clear. Lith developers are also currently used for lith
printing. This is a sort of special effect which has become
popular in the last decade or so. A Google search for lith
printing will give you lots of hits.
For just higher than normal contrast on pictorial film I
think less extreme developers will work fine. One can use
something like Kodak D-8 or D-11 but, as I mentioned before,
probably any print developer will be enough.

--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA


I've already tried ID-13 with Ilford Delta 100 film to obtain "line
art" pictures but result was totally wrong. Maybe I've to use stronger
developer, with paraformaldehyde in composition, together with a low
sensibility film.
Thanks for all hints.
P.

  #6  
Old October 23rd 07, 10:22 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 137
Default Lith film emulation

On Oct 21, 11:35 am, piterengel wrote:

Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need to try with a
qute common film to obtain very high contrasted pictures. I have Efke
KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a developer
to have extremely contrasted subjects? Thanks all - P.


A variety of lith films are available here in the USA. Lith films
are slow orthochromatic films which are processed in well lighted
darkrooms; the same level of lighting used to process Graded Paper.
Any film I'd think would lith process. Panchromatic film processing
would be done in complete darkness. So, slow ortho films are used.
As for developer a very low sulfite carbonate plus hydroquinone
mix will likely work well; does for paper. Dan


  #7  
Old October 24th 07, 12:59 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Nicholas O. Lindan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,227
Default Lith film emulation

As regards not using (para)formaldehyde for lithographic
film development I have tacked to the corkboard in the
darkroom:

Kodak D-8
Richard Knoppow provided also, this formula which dispenses
with paraformaldehyde. Richard's formula is as follows:

Water (90 degrees F) 750 ml 7 oz
Sodium Sulfite (anh) 90 gm 3 tsp
Hydroquinone 45 gm 3 tsp

Let cool before adding

Sodium Hydroxide 38 gm 1.5 tsp
Potassium Bromide 30 gm 2 oz 10% soln
Water to make 1 litre 8 oz

Richard notes that the solution should be stirred thoroughly
before use. He also suggests that a less alkaline version
which will give nearly as much contrast can be obtained
by reducing the amount of Hydroxide to 28 grams per liter.
He also wisely notes that one should be very careful mixing
the hydroxide as it produces a lot of heat going into solution
and can cause boiling and splattering. Hydroxide should only
be added to COLD solutions.

To Use with Films:
Mix 2 parts stock solution and 1 part water.


I added the 8 oz make-up - about right for a few sheets of
4x5 in a tray.

The paper on the corkboard doesn't list its provenance,
but it appears he

http://members.iinet.net.au/~forbes/lithdev.html

with the additional comment:

To Use for Lith Printing:
I'm going to experiment with this developer and
post my preferred dilutions for lith printing.
Until I do, I suggest that you consult Tim Rudman's
book for ideas on diluting it for use in printing.


I use this stuff with lith film and it works well, not as
dramatic and dense as Kodalith A/B but certainly workable.

The _original_ formula was obviously:

Water (90 degrees F) 24 oz
Sodium Sulfite (anh) 3 oz avdp
Hydroquinone 1.5 oz avdp
Sodium Hydroxide 1 oz avdp
Potassium Bromide 1 oz avdp
Water to make 1 quart

Formulae with 85.1 gm of this and 38.35 gm of that give the
impression that titrations of great precision were used
in determining the optimum amounts. The amounts only
look funny because they got converted to metric, rounded
(or not) and then tweaked with 'and extra 10 ml or so'
yielding numbers like 38.35 ml.

The quantities used when the formula was developed are
obviously a jigger or this, a splash of that and a
teaspoon of the other. When making it up there is
no need to be any more precise.

==
Nicholas O. Lindan
Cleveland Engineering Design, LLC
Cleveland, Ohio 44121


  #8  
Old October 24th 07, 01:29 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default Lith film emulation


wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 21, 11:35 am, piterengel
wrote:

Hi, becaise it no more possible to find lith film I need
to try with a
qute common film to obtain very high contrasted pictures.
I have Efke
KB 25 and Rollei PAN 25 at home. Can anybody suggest a
developer
to have extremely contrasted subjects? Thanks all - P.


A variety of lith films are available here in the USA.
Lith films
are slow orthochromatic films which are processed in well
lighted
darkrooms; the same level of lighting used to process
Graded Paper.
Any film I'd think would lith process. Panchromatic film
processing
would be done in complete darkness. So, slow ortho films
are used.
As for developer a very low sulfite carbonate plus
hydroquinone
mix will likely work well; does for paper. Dan

Lithographic films were made in all spectral
sensitivies, pan films were used for making half-tone plates
for three or four color letterpress reproduction. The main
property of lith films which differentiates them for
pictorial films is their contrast. The contrast of a film
depends on certain features of its emulsion, mostly the
range of sensitivities of the silver halide particals which
make it up. Pictorial film has wide range of halide
sensitivity, lith film a very narrow range. So, for a lith
film the difference between an exposure which results in
full development and one which does not expose a partical
enough to develop it is very small. The result is that the
image is essentially either full density or none.
Lith film was used originall for photo-mechanical
reproduction of line or half-tone work, the latter using a
screen. The original half-tone process used a variation of
the wet-plate Collodion process because the senstive
coating (not an emulsion) could be very high contrast and
was very thin which maintained the sharpness of the dots or
lines. Later various types of lithographic dry plates were
used including some with the half-tone screen built in.
There were also a variety of "commercial" films, often
blue sensitive but also ortho or panchromatic, meant for
very high contrast but lower than the lith films. All of
this stuff has been replaced by digital methods for
photo-mechanical purposes but lith film remains because it
is used in a number of alternative photographic processes
and for special effects such as masking.
The lith developers using Paraformaldehide must be low
sulfite because sulfite interfers with the infectious
development property. Infectious development is the
accelerating development of silver halide particals near a
developing one. This produces a sort of chain reaction which
results in very high density and very high contrast.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



  #9  
Old October 24th 07, 01:49 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Nicholas O. Lindan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,227
Default Lith film emulation

"Nicholas O. Lindan" wrote

Water (90 degrees F) 750 ml 7 oz


Oops, that should be 5 oz

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com


  #10  
Old October 25th 07, 12:50 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 137
Default Lith film emulation

"Richard Knoppow" wrote:

... but lith film remains because it is used
in a number of alternative photographic processes
and for special effects such as masking.
Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA


Check your local printing supply outlets or visit via the WWW
Valley Litho, a Mid West mail order supplier of a vast selection
of press room supplies including a large selection of lith - half
tone process films and developers.
Should add, also a somewhat unique assortment of film,
paper, and darkroom supplies. Dan


 




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