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#61
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Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!
On 9/16/2011 11:28 AM, Pete A wrote:
snip When I comment on SI submissions I attempt to separate the art from the craft. For surreal images (my favourite kind), I assume that the artist "got their art right" therefore I can indicate only my appreciation of the art. If I don't like it, be pleased. Surreal art is supposed to provoke a reaction, it is irrelevant whether the reaction is positive or negative. The art is a failure only when everyone says "It's OK." It would be a dull world if we all liked the same thing. I have never liked or appreciated Van Eyck, but millions of others do. If I dislike, or do not understand, the art, I try to put that aside while I think of technical aspects that may be detracting from the art. When I comment on technical aspects, I try to express what I think would enhance, not change the image I think the maker intended. My artistic and technical knowledge is very limited, which makes me totally unqualified to comment on the submissions. Who the hell am I to critique the works of others? As a sentient human you have opinions, likes and dislikes. You clearly have the right to express your opinions. And as a contribution to the art world, perhaps an obligation. Why don't I just submit images then sit back and learn from the experience of others? Because, I never want my art, or anyone else's, to be "designed by committee." Nor should it ever be. Each of us is an adherent of some photographic rules. I'm obsessed with bokeh, horizons, vanishing points, optical illusions, chroma noise, distracting dots/lines, and tone - the distribution of levels in terms of both contrast and colour. Yet for the life of me I can't learn to frame or compose an image. Practice, practice, practice. ;-) Absolutely no disrespect to any of you, I've learnt a heck of a lot more useful stuff from local art groups, galleries, self-employed pro. photographers, and the feature editors of publications than I've ever learnt from camera clubs Depends on the club. Generally, camera clubs are a good place to learn the basics. CC competition "standards" are more craft than art. But one must understand the rules before one can break them successfully. I've left my biggest obsession until last: "rendering intent." While writing my comments on SI submissions I have no idea as to the intended rendering of each image. I wonder, is its purpose: to look good as displayed on the Web page with a black background; to be the front cover of a magazine; to be a double-page spread in a prestigious journal; to be framed and offered for sale at a high price; or to be a giant poster on display in a shop or on billboard? Agreed. Yet a good image will sell itself. You all must be sick to death of me harping on about this: a digital image is not a finished product, the rendering of it is out of our control. If you give me a perfect image and I display it on a **** monitor, it will look terrible. If you send me a beautifully framed print, designed to look its best under carefully controlled incandescent lighting (a studio or gallery) it will look **** hanging on my bedroom wall illuminated by cold North-East afternoon light. The oft-forgotten aspect of "rendering intent" is the appropriate rendition of sharpness throughout an image to match the visual acuity of the viewer. Nature has fine detail from the macro right down to the micro: the outline of a forest should be sharp as should be the fine detail in each leaf. Even a 60 MP camera isn't going to record that range. Visual acuity peaks around 7 to 9 line-pairs per degree and drops to almost zero by 30 (20/20 vision). Unlike an painter, a photographer has to juggle with depth-of-field, diffraction, camera resolution, available light, dynamic range, and noise. If the photographer does not know the rendering intent for the image then it is impossible to select "best" values for ISO, aperture and shutter speed, let alone select or purchase his/her best lens for the job. Examples: 1. A windmill in the mist does not need a camera and lens combination that has 12 f-stops of dynamic range and the last word in spatial resolution; it requires a combination that is extraordinarily good at resolving micro-contrast and subtleties of colour. 2. Resolving every defect in a model's face is not "good photography." True, but it may be good marketing. 3. A section of picket fence as the main subject should look sharp, but the fine detail in the surrounding grass or gravel should not look sharp. Such a shot requires an image with high MTF at mid frequencies and low MTF at high frequencies. The definition of "mid" and "high" spatial frequencies must coincide with the visual acuity of the viewer, not a lens-test MTF chart. Why? Is it really necessary for are to follow rules. That last paragraph is exactly the camera club system. -- Peter |
#62
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[SI] Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!
On 2011-09-16 18:26:51 +0100, Bowser said:
[...] And once again, nobody likes that damned third shot. :-) Oh, for goodness sake! I wrote "I have a sense of unease looking at this one. The guy in the boat is pointing to it: I think it needs to show either bit more on the left or bit less." That doesn't mean I didn't like it. I took into account in my comments that you know very well I'm a great fan of your images, so, I really really like that shot, OK? If it had been framed slightly differently on the left I think it would transform it from "very good" to "superb." |
#63
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[SI] Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:26:51 -0400, Bowser wrote:
On 9/16/2011 10:01 AM, tony cooper wrote: On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 18:40:58 -0400, wrote: The Dusk or Dawn gallery is posted, and it's a very healthy gallery, too. Some nice shots in there. Take a look, and offer a friendly critique, if you dare. http://www.pbase.com/shootin/duskdawn Pithy comments: Bowser1& Bowser2: Both excellent shots, but how they fit the Dusk to Dawn mandate baffles me. Bowser3 fits the mandate, but is a rather trite view of a much-photographed setting. All three shots were taken at dusk. the first one, I thought, was pretty obvious, but I'll grant you the mushrooms isn't as obvious. But it was taken at dusk and the light was really nice. And once again, nobody likes that damned third shot. Well, to me, a "dusk or dawn" photo ought to *look* like it was taken at dusk or at dawn. I did like the mushroom photo, though. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida |
#64
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Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:28:14 +0100, Pete A
wrote: My artistic and technical knowledge is very limited, which makes me totally unqualified to comment on the submissions. Who the hell am I to critique the works of others? This, frankly, is bull****. We are *all* qualified to judge and comment on all the photographs submitted. The only qualification necessary is the ability to form and express an opinion. What makes you think your opinion is any less valid than anyone else's? You may see something - good or bad - in photo that no one else sees or brings up. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida |
#65
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Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:47:18 -0400, PeterN
wrote: Absolutely no disrespect to any of you, I've learnt a heck of a lot more useful stuff from local art groups, galleries, self-employed pro. photographers, and the feature editors of publications than I've ever learnt from camera clubs Depends on the club. Generally, camera clubs are a good place to learn the basics. CC competition "standards" are more craft than art. But one must understand the rules before one can break them successfully. Every camera club is different, but my time has been well-spent attending the meetings. I've learned more about what *not* to do than what I should do. The critiques bring out the flaws more than they compliment the good aspects. When you see how a photograph can be improved by cropping, you learn not include the extraneous in the next submission. In general, you learn *why* a particular photograph isn't as pleasing as you think it should be or why the judges aren't pleased with it. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida |
#66
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Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!
On 2011-09-16 19:08:06 +0100, tony cooper said:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:28:14 +0100, Pete A wrote: My artistic and technical knowledge is very limited, which makes me totally unqualified to comment on the submissions. Who the hell am I to critique the works of others? This, frankly, is bull****. We are *all* qualified to judge and comment on all the photographs submitted. The only qualification necessary is the ability to form and express an opinion. What makes you think your opinion is any less valid than anyone else's? You may see something - good or bad - in photo that no one else sees or brings up. I find it very difficult to express my opinions in writing - it took me five hours to write my comments on the submissions to this SI. I enjoyed doing it and I took the time because in a previous post you mentioned that there was a lack of negative feedback (suggestions for improvement). Hopefully this time, I've contributed worthwhile observations from my areas of knowledge that will benefit others. The last thing I want anyone to do is degrade their work of art because of something I've said. In my opinion, some contributors to the SI are overly willing to adjust the artistic rendition of their image based on feedback - feedback that I strongly disagree with, but I remain silent. I do not wish to start an argument, furthermore, I have no empirical evidence for my disagreement. What really ****es me off is when I see budding artists who are compliant enough (through admirable humility) to willingly degrade their art based on the feedback of those who totally missed the point of their art. But, like I said, who the hell am I to make such powerful statements? It's just my humble opinions at the end of the day. |
#67
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Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!
On 9/16/2011 4:09 PM, tony cooper wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:47:18 -0400, PeterN wrote: Absolutely no disrespect to any of you, I've learnt a heck of a lot more useful stuff from local art groups, galleries, self-employed pro. photographers, and the feature editors of publications than I've ever learnt from camera clubs Depends on the club. Generally, camera clubs are a good place to learn the basics. CC competition "standards" are more craft than art. But one must understand the rules before one can break them successfully. Every camera club is different, but my time has been well-spent attending the meetings. I've learned more about what *not* to do than what I should do. The critiques bring out the flaws more than they compliment the good aspects. When you see how a photograph can be improved by cropping, you learn not include the extraneous in the next submission. In general, you learn *why* a particular photograph isn't as pleasing as you think it should be or why the judges aren't pleased with it. We try to emphasize the positive. Having said that, sometimes a critique must be harsh. Last night, after the formal presentation was over we continued the discussion with the presenter, for about another hour. We learned additional refinement of the technique in that hour. I will pass on one tip I learned for quickly setting a gray point. It takes longer to read, than do: Duplicate the base layer; blur it: filter! blur ! average; create a curve adjustment layer' click on the center eye dropper and touch it to the blurred layer. It will turn 18% gray' delete the blurred layer and the base image will reflect the gray point setting; then set your black and white points. Note: this also works well with a levels adjustment layer. -- Peter |
#68
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Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!
On 9/16/2011 5:28 PM, Pete A wrote:
On 2011-09-16 19:08:06 +0100, tony cooper said: On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:28:14 +0100, Pete A wrote: My artistic and technical knowledge is very limited, which makes me totally unqualified to comment on the submissions. Who the hell am I to critique the works of others? This, frankly, is bull****. We are *all* qualified to judge and comment on all the photographs submitted. The only qualification necessary is the ability to form and express an opinion. What makes you think your opinion is any less valid than anyone else's? You may see something - good or bad - in photo that no one else sees or brings up. I find it very difficult to express my opinions in writing - it took me five hours to write my comments on the submissions to this SI. I enjoyed doing it and I took the time because in a previous post you mentioned that there was a lack of negative feedback (suggestions for improvement). Hopefully this time, I've contributed worthwhile observations from my areas of knowledge that will benefit others. The last thing I want anyone to do is degrade their work of art because of something I've said. In my opinion, some contributors to the SI are overly willing to adjust the artistic rendition of their image based on feedback - feedback that I strongly disagree with, but I remain silent. I do not wish to start an argument, furthermore, I have no empirical evidence for my disagreement. What really ****es me off is when I see budding artists who are compliant enough (through admirable humility) to willingly degrade their art based on the feedback of those who totally missed the point of their art. But, like I said, who the hell am I to make such powerful statements? It's just my humble opinions at the end of the day. Don't confuse humility with a lack of self confidence. I try to make it clear, that my comments are only my opinion and the artist should not take them literally, but should merely consider them. -- Peter |
#69
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Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!
On 9/16/2011 7:28 PM, Pete A wrote:
snip That sounds great. I've had three people suggest I should start a camera club completely separate from our local one, meaning, mine should be geared towards novices having fun, with photography as a secondary interest. I'm not quite up to organising that, but I'll have a go at coercing the able-bodied enthusiasts to start something. It takes a lot of work and a great deal of commitment to run even a small CC. If you are not sure you can do it, don't. It's too easy to get nice people mad at you, for your good intentions. -- Peter |
#70
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Dusk or Dawn is available mid day!
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 21:12:02 -0400, PeterN
wrote: On 9/16/2011 4:09 PM, tony cooper wrote: On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:47:18 -0400, PeterN wrote: Absolutely no disrespect to any of you, I've learnt a heck of a lot more useful stuff from local art groups, galleries, self-employed pro. photographers, and the feature editors of publications than I've ever learnt from camera clubs Depends on the club. Generally, camera clubs are a good place to learn the basics. CC competition "standards" are more craft than art. But one must understand the rules before one can break them successfully. Every camera club is different, but my time has been well-spent attending the meetings. I've learned more about what *not* to do than what I should do. The critiques bring out the flaws more than they compliment the good aspects. When you see how a photograph can be improved by cropping, you learn not include the extraneous in the next submission. In general, you learn *why* a particular photograph isn't as pleasing as you think it should be or why the judges aren't pleased with it. We try to emphasize the positive. Who "we"? Our critiques are from at least one, if not two, non-member judges and one or two member judges. The images are graded without the grader knowing who shot the image. All the judges usually (but not always) compliment the image one way or the other, but then they say why it was a 7 instead of a 10. I will pass on one tip I learned for quickly setting a gray point. It takes longer to read, than do: Duplicate the base layer; blur it: filter! blur ! average; create a curve adjustment layer' click on the center eye dropper and touch it to the blurred layer. It will turn 18% gray' delete the blurred layer and the base image will reflect the gray point setting; then set your black and white points. Note: this also works well with a levels adjustment layer. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida |
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