Reichman: Sigma's only hope, bundle it with their least bad lenses

Bruce wrote in
:

RichA wrote:

Finally, two professional sources call Sigma's lenses "consumer
grade." Reichman suggests as a way to justify the horrific $9700
price, bundling the body with their "best" lenses. The suggestion is
however, that if the camera can deliver the resolution claimed, most
of the Sigma lenses won't be able to deliver it and you are stuck with
the Sigma bayonet.


Perhaps some enterprising engineering company will offer to adapt
other, superior brands of lens to the Sigma SA mount? The physical
mount is said to be identical to the Pentax K bayonet mount but with a
different lock. Consequently, you can successfully mount a Pentax K
or KA lens, but there is nothing to prevent the lens rotating in the
mount - except friction.

So it might be possible to modify Pentax K/KA lenses with the addition
of a lock fit the Sigma SA mount and lock the lens in place.

Of course the electronic interface is completely different, so
including AF and other features that are dependent on electronics
would probably not be possible.




Interesting, I wasn't aware of this, thank you.

On 24/05/2011 10:10 AM, Rich wrote:
wrote in
:

wrote:

Finally, two professional sources call Sigma's lenses "consumer
grade." Reichman suggests as a way to justify the horrific $9700
price, bundling the body with their "best" lenses. The suggestion is
however, that if the camera can deliver the resolution claimed, most
of the Sigma lenses won't be able to deliver it and you are stuck with
the Sigma bayonet.


Perhaps some enterprising engineering company will offer to adapt
other, superior brands of lens to the Sigma SA mount? The physical
mount is said to be identical to the Pentax K bayonet mount but with a
different lock. Consequently, you can successfully mount a Pentax K
or KA lens, but there is nothing to prevent the lens rotating in the
mount - except friction.

So it might be possible to modify Pentax K/KA lenses with the addition
of a lock fit the Sigma SA mount and lock the lens in place.

Of course the electronic interface is completely different, so
including AF and other features that are dependent on electronics
would probably not be possible.




Interesting, I wasn't aware of this, thank you.

Using Pentax (PK) lenses on a Sigma SA mount camera won't work.
The main reason is the the SA mount register is the same as Canon EF (or
EF-s) and so without a spacer (modified PK macro ring?) it would never
be able to focus.
Maybe a better idea would be to exchange the camera's SA mount with a EF
mount.
From what little I've bothered to research about the SA mount uses the
same electronic comms as Canon EF, but don't quote what I've written as
the final word on this (I could *gasp* be wrong about this).

In article , dj_nme
wrote:

Using Pentax (PK) lenses on a Sigma SA mount camera won't work.

it does work, just need to remove the aperture coupling pin because it
will hit the colour matching filter, also known as the dust protector.

The main reason is the the SA mount register is the same as Canon EF (or
EF-s) and so without a spacer (modified PK macro ring?) it would never
be able to focus.

it will not focus as close as it would on pentax (normally not a huge
issue) and also go past infinity (not a problem at all), but otherwise
it works fine.

Maybe a better idea would be to exchange the camera's SA mount with a EF
mount.

also an option but that's more money and voids any warranty, which with
sigma products is desperately needed, especially with the cameras.

From what little I've bothered to research about the SA mount uses the
same electronic comms as Canon EF, but don't quote what I've written as
the final word on this (I could *gasp* be wrong about this).

it does.

On 25/05/2011 12:20 AM, nospam wrote:
In m.au, dj_nme
wrote:

Using Pentax (PK) lenses on a Sigma SA mount camera won't work.

it does work, just need to remove the aperture coupling pin because it
will hit the colour matching filter, also known as the dust protector.

That would seem a shame, to ruin a perfectly good Pentax lens to fit it
onto a Sigma dSLR.

The main reason is the the SA mount register is the same as Canon EF (or
EF-s) and so without a spacer (modified PK macro ring?) it would never
be able to focus.

it will not focus as close as it would on pentax (normally not a huge
issue) and also go past infinity (not a problem at all), but otherwise
it works fine.

Maybe a better idea would be to exchange the camera's SA mount with a EF
mount.

also an option but that's more money and voids any warranty, which with
sigma products is desperately needed, especially with the cameras.

I don't know which is nastier: your subtle(?) jab at Sigma reliabilitly
or mine about ruining a PK lens.

From what little I've bothered to research about the SA mount uses the
same electronic comms as Canon EF, but don't quote what I've written as
the final word on this (I could *gasp* be wrong about this).

it does.

I wonder why they never seem to have received a C&D letter from Canon
about that?

Surely the best "swap bits to make it work" in this case would be
exchanging the bayonet on a Canon EF lens with a Sigma SA mount.
At least then you'd have full automation.
Much better than irreversibly damaging a lens to fit a camera.

My gut instinct is that it would be wiser move to buy a Pentax dSLR to
use PK lenses with.
Heck, you could buy (at least) 10 Pentax bodies for the price of a Sigma
SD1), at full retail price.

In article , Bruce
wrote:

Maybe for the exact same reason that Sigma haven't received a C&D
letter from Canon for reverse engineering the interface for use in
Sigma's lens range for Canon EF mount?

Well, that's just how Sigma rolls. It's in line with their creative
math.

Camera manufacturers would obviously prefer to sell their own branded
lenses to owners of their DSLRs. However, the availability of
inexpensive third party lenses from Sigma, Tamron, Tokina etc. helps
sell cameras to people who have limited funds - if only the more
expensive camera brand lenses were available, people would have less
money to spend on cameras.

The sting of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price
is forgotten.

In article , dj_nme
wrote:

Using Pentax (PK) lenses on a Sigma SA mount camera won't work.

it does work, just need to remove the aperture coupling pin because it
will hit the colour matching filter, also known as the dust protector.

That would seem a shame, to ruin a perfectly good Pentax lens to fit it
onto a Sigma dSLR.

very true.

Maybe a better idea would be to exchange the camera's SA mount with a EF
mount.

also an option but that's more money and voids any warranty, which with
sigma products is desperately needed, especially with the cameras.

I don't know which is nastier: your subtle(?) jab at Sigma reliabilitly
or mine about ruining a PK lens.

it wasn't meant as a jab. it was meant as a dose of reality. there are
a *lot* of posts on dpreview about how unreliable sigma products are,
and to be fixed they sometimes have to be sent to japan for a few
months, sometimes coming back not any better. the bizarre thing is
people put up with it and go back for more.

when lensrentals.com started tracking how reliable the lenses they rent
were, sigma held the first *five* spots with the #1 contender having a
90% failure rate:
http://www.lensrentals.com/news/2008.09.20/lens-repair-data-10

From what little I've bothered to research about the SA mount uses the
same electronic comms as Canon EF, but don't quote what I've written as
the final word on this (I could *gasp* be wrong about this).

it does.

I wonder why they never seem to have received a C&D letter from Canon
about that?

probably because sigma doesn't sell enough cameras or sigma mount
lenses for canon to care.

on the other hand, nikon just sued sigma this morning over image
stabilization:

http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/05/25/nikon-idINL3E7GP11H20110525

May 25 (Reuters) - Nikon Corp said on Wednesday it has filed a patent
infringement suit against Japan's Sigma Corp in Tokyo district court
over the manufacture and sale of interchangeable lenses with
vibration reduction for single lens reflex cameras.

Surely the best "swap bits to make it work" in this case would be
exchanging the bayonet on a Canon EF lens with a Sigma SA mount.
At least then you'd have full automation.
Much better than irreversibly damaging a lens to fit a camera.

you have to irreversibly 'damage' either the lens or the camera, and
since a canon lens is going to hold value a *lot* better than a sigma
camera, it might as well be the camera.

another option i've seen is take a pair of 1.4x teleconverters and swap
the plates on those, leaving the lenses and cameras alone. that way,
you can use a unmodified canon lens on a sigma camera using the hybrid
teleconverter and vice versa. the only downside is you have to use a
1.4x teleconverter, which may not be desirable in all situations.

My gut instinct is that it would be wiser move to buy a Pentax dSLR to
use PK lenses with.
Heck, you could buy (at least) 10 Pentax bodies for the price of a Sigma
SD1), at full retail price.

very wise.

if the sd1 is anything like their previous cameras, it's going to be a
mass of problems, and with a $9700 price tag, it's going to have some
*very* ****ed off buyers.

dj_nme wrote:
On 25/05/2011 12:20 AM, nospam wrote:
wrote:

From what little I've bothered to research about the SA mount uses the
same electronic comms as Canon EF, but don't quote what I've written as
the final word on this (I could *gasp* be wrong about this).

it does.

I wonder why they never seem to have received a C&D letter from Canon
about that?

Why should they? It's an interface. They're not breaking
copyright (it's a re-implementation based on observation, not a
copy of the code), they presumably don't break patents (can you
even patent such a thing?), and it's not look&feel either.

And they already offer lenses with Canon's EF signal stuff
built in.

-Wolfgang

On Thu, 26 May 2011 10:07:07 +0200, Wolfgang Weisselberg
wrote:

dj_nme wrote:
On 25/05/2011 12:20 AM, nospam wrote:
wrote:

From what little I've bothered to research about the SA mount uses the
same electronic comms as Canon EF, but don't quote what I've written as
the final word on this (I could *gasp* be wrong about this).

it does.

I wonder why they never seem to have received a C&D letter from Canon
about that?

Why should they? It's an interface. They're not breaking
copyright (it's a re-implementation based on observation, not a
copy of the code), they presumably don't break patents (can you
even patent such a thing?), and it's not look&feel either.

If an ordinarynon-expert person can look atit and say "That's copied
from Canon" then there is a prima facie case for saying its copied. In
that event the onus is no longer on Canon to say that its copied but
shifts to Sigma who has to show that it isn't.

There may of course already be an agreement.

And they already offer lenses with Canon's EF signal stuff
built in.

-Wolfgang

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On 26/05/2011 2:10 AM, nospam wrote:
In m.au, dj_nme
wrote:

Using Pentax (PK) lenses on a Sigma SA mount camera won't work.

it does work, just need to remove the aperture coupling pin because it
will hit the colour matching filter, also known as the dust protector.

That would seem a shame, to ruin a perfectly good Pentax lens to fit it
onto a Sigma dSLR.

very true.

Maybe a better idea would be to exchange the camera's SA mount with a EF
mount.

also an option but that's more money and voids any warranty, which with
sigma products is desperately needed, especially with the cameras.

I don't know which is nastier: your subtle(?) jab at Sigma reliabilitly
or mine about ruining a PK lens.

it wasn't meant as a jab. it was meant as a dose of reality. there are
a *lot* of posts on dpreview about how unreliable sigma products are,
and to be fixed they sometimes have to be sent to japan for a few
months, sometimes coming back not any better. the bizarre thing is
people put up with it and go back for more.

when lensrentals.com started tracking how reliable the lenses they rent
were, sigma held the first *five* spots with the #1 contender having a
90% failure rate:
http://www.lensrentals.com/news/2008.09.20/lens-repair-data-10

From what little I've bothered to research about the SA mount uses the
same electronic comms as Canon EF, but don't quote what I've written as
the final word on this (I could *gasp* be wrong about this).

it does.

I wonder why they never seem to have received a C&D letter from Canon
about that?

probably because sigma doesn't sell enough cameras or sigma mount
lenses for canon to care.

on the other hand, nikon just sued sigma this morning over image
stabilization:

http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/05/25/nikon-idINL3E7GP11H20110525

May 25 (Reuters) - Nikon Corp said on Wednesday it has filed a patent
infringement suit against Japan's Sigma Corp in Tokyo district court
over the manufacture and sale of interchangeable lenses with
vibration reduction for single lens reflex cameras.

Surely the best "swap bits to make it work" in this case would be
exchanging the bayonet on a Canon EF lens with a Sigma SA mount.
At least then you'd have full automation.
Much better than irreversibly damaging a lens to fit a camera.

you have to irreversibly 'damage' either the lens or the camera, and
since a canon lens is going to hold value a *lot* better than a sigma
camera, it might as well be the camera.

Just swapping the mount on the lens should be reversible, if you kept
all the parts and didn't machine anything to fit.

another option i've seen is take a pair of 1.4x teleconverters and swap
the plates on those, leaving the lenses and cameras alone. that way,
you can use a unmodified canon lens on a sigma camera using the hybrid
teleconverter and vice versa. the only downside is you have to use a
1.4x teleconverter, which may not be desirable in all situations.

That would be my source of EF bayonets if _had_ to do it, but it seems a
bit pointless when a 24x36 sensor Canon dSLR cost less than half (at
full RRP) than a Sigma SD1 (at RRP).

My gut instinct is that it would be wiser move to buy a Pentax dSLR to
use PK lenses with.
Heck, you could buy (at least) 10 Pentax bodies for the price of a Sigma
SD1), at full retail price.

very wise.

if the sd1 is anything like their previous cameras, it's going to be a
mass of problems, and with a $9700 price tag, it's going to have some
*very* ****ed off buyers.

I completely agree.

On 26/05/2011 7:56 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 26 May 2011 10:07:07 +0200, Wolfgang Weisselberg
wrote:

wrote:
On 25/05/2011 12:20 AM, nospam wrote:
wrote:

From what little I've bothered to research about the SA mount uses the
same electronic comms as Canon EF, but don't quote what I've written as
the final word on this (I could *gasp* be wrong about this).

it does.

I wonder why they never seem to have received a C&D letter from Canon
about that?

Why should they? It's an interface. They're not breaking
copyright (it's a re-implementation based on observation, not a
copy of the code), they presumably don't break patents (can you
even patent such a thing?), and it's not look&feel either.

If an ordinarynon-expert person can look atit and say "That's copied
from Canon" then there is a prima facie case for saying its copied. In
that event the onus is no longer on Canon to say that its copied but
shifts to Sigma who has to show that it isn't.

That's why I think it's a bit strange that one of the core (and quite
distinctive) technologies in the Canon EF system could be copied with no
comeback from Canon.

There may of course already be an agreement.

That might be a distinct possibility and would explain the lack of
apparent action from Canon.