The end of the DSLR

On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:16:29 +0200, Alfred Molon wrote:

http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767

Olympus and Panasonic have announced a new camera standard with no
mirror, EVF and interchangeable lenses. The days of the DSLR are counted
- it's just a matter of time before (most) other manufacturers will
follow and introduce EVIL cameras (EVF + interchangeable lenses). Most
likely the swinging mirror will survive only in a small niche of
cameras.

The main issue in my opinion is the AF system, i.e. how to get a fast AF
system without the mirror (the phase AF seems to need a mirror). As for
resolution and refresh speed of the EVF I would expect the EVFs to
quickly improve, although already now they are good enough for most
purposes (ever tried to manually focus through an optical viewfinder?).

I have indeed been wondering for some time why no one made an EVF with
interchangeable lenses - seems like the only thing missing.

Alfred Molon wrote:
http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767


The main issue in my opinion is the AF system, i.e. how to get a fast AF

With nearly 4x less sensing area than a FF DSLR the 4/3 system is a dead
end system for most photogs due to noise limiting the pixel sizes and
hence number of pixels.

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On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 22:08:44 +0100, "Jake" wrote:

"Alfred Molon" wrote in message
m...
http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767

Olympus and Panasonic have announced a new camera standard with no
mirror, EVF and interchangeable lenses. The days of the DSLR are counted
- it's just a matter of time before (most) other manufacturers will
follow and introduce EVIL cameras (EVF + interchangeable lenses). Most
likely the swinging mirror will survive only in a small niche of
cameras.

The main issue in my opinion is the AF system, i.e. how to get a fast AF
system without the mirror (the phase AF seems to need a mirror). As for
resolution and refresh speed of the EVF I would expect the EVFs to
quickly improve, although already now they are good enough for most
purposes (ever tried to manually focus through an optical viewfinder?).


So, you are looking at a LCD instead of a real image? No thanks! Why would
anyone choose to look at an LCD over an optical view finder?!?

Ever try shooting straight down on an object with the camera mounted
on a copy stand? Unless you put the copy stand on the floor, peering
through a OVF is almost impossible.

Perhaps this isn't important to you, but it answers your question of
"Why would anyone...?".


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

"Robert Sneddon" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
In message , Jake
writes
"Alfred Molon" wrote in message news:MPG.2302d
...
http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767

Olympus and Panasonic have announced a new camera standard with no
mirror, EVF and interchangeable lenses.


So, you are looking at a LCD instead of a real image?

Classic mirror-flip SLRs show a false image -- what is shown in the
viewfinder is not the image currently impinging on the recording surface
(whether it is film or an electronic sensor) but an image bounced off a
mirror, round a prism and through assorted other lenses before it gets
to the camera user's eye. Hopefully it is calibrated accurately and the
viewfinder image's focussing matches the recording surface, otherwise
there's a lot of out-of-focus shots and an expensive trip to the camera
repair shop.

An EVF shows the user what the camera's sensor is seeing, not a
guesstimate of exposure and focus.

No thanks! Why would anyone choose to look at an LCD over an optical
view finder?!?

Image enhancement, preview zoom, movie mode, continuous pre-shoot,
high-speed continuous shooting, a whole range of reasons. Classic
mirror-flip SLR systems can't do these things, the new non-mirror
exchangeable-lens cameras will be able to. That's why mirror SLRs will
be left behind in the dustbin of history, in the same way wet-plate
chemistry photography was overtaken by "film".

It will take a long time for EVFs to equal OVFs. I am a professional video
cameraman, and our top-end cameras still have black and white CRT
viewfinders, because LCDs are so poor--you can't focus with them worth a
damn. No professional still photographer will accept working with today's
poor EVFs, and I have seen nothing on the horizon to change that.

Toby

Robert Sneddon wrote:
[]
Classic mirror-flip SLRs show a false image -- what is shown in the
viewfinder is not the image currently impinging on the recording
surface (whether it is film or an electronic sensor) but an image
bounced off a mirror, round a prism and through assorted other lenses
before it gets to the camera user's eye. Hopefully it is calibrated
accurately and the viewfinder image's focussing matches the recording
surface, otherwise there's a lot of out-of-focus shots and an
expensive trip to the camera repair shop.

You are wrong about where the focus measurement surface lies. It is /not/
on the optical viewfinder. Even after all the bounces, the optical
viewfinder image is vastly superior to any current production EVF.

David

"Jake" wrote in message
...
"Alfred Molon" wrote in message
...
http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767

Olympus and Panasonic have announced a new camera standard with no
mirror, EVF and interchangeable lenses. The days of the DSLR are counted
- it's just a matter of time before (most) other manufacturers will
follow and introduce EVIL cameras (EVF + interchangeable lenses). Most
likely the swinging mirror will survive only in a small niche of
cameras.

The main issue in my opinion is the AF system, i.e. how to get a fast AF
system without the mirror (the phase AF seems to need a mirror). As for
resolution and refresh speed of the EVF I would expect the EVFs to
quickly improve, although already now they are good enough for most
purposes (ever tried to manually focus through an optical viewfinder?).


So, you are looking at a LCD instead of a real image? No thanks! Why
would anyone choose to look at an LCD over an optical view finder?!?

Anyway, I don't care what Olympus and Panasonic are doing to be honest,
which says it all.

Because he is an Olympus shooter and the Oly 4/3's viewfinders are are like
having tunnel vision.

tony cooper wrote:
[]
Ever try shooting straight down on an object with the camera mounted
on a copy stand? Unless you put the copy stand on the floor, peering
through a OVF is almost impossible.

.... unless you buy the reflex finder adaptor, of course. Nikon certainly
used to offer them, I expect Canon do as well.

David

Alfred Molon wrote:
http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767

Olympus and Panasonic have announced a new camera standard with no
mirror, EVF and interchangeable lenses. The days of the DSLR are
counted - it's just a matter of time before (most) other
manufacturers will follow and introduce EVIL cameras (EVF +
interchangeable lenses). Most likely the swinging mirror will survive
only in a small niche of cameras.

The main issue in my opinion is the AF system, i.e. how to get a fast
AF system without the mirror (the phase AF seems to need a mirror).
As for resolution and refresh speed of the EVF I would expect the
EVFs to quickly improve, although already now they are good enough
for most purposes (ever tried to manually focus through an optical
viewfinder?).

Alfred,

I was using manual focus with optical viewfinders for 30 years, and
achieved entirely satisfactory results. The AF will be a major problem,
and there are /no/ current production cameras with an adequate EVF.

If you want a compact camera, it's probably better to get a small-sensor
camera with a fixed lens (and therefore no dust issues). There's room in
the market for both DSLR and compact cameras. I have my doubts about a
further niche system, requiring yet another set of lens purchases to get
the most out of it.

Cheers,
David

Jake wrote:
"Alfred Molon" wrote in message
...
http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3767

Olympus and Panasonic have announced a new camera standard with no
mirror, EVF and interchangeable lenses. The days of the DSLR are counted
- it's just a matter of time before (most) other manufacturers will
follow and introduce EVIL cameras (EVF + interchangeable lenses). Most
likely the swinging mirror will survive only in a small niche of
cameras.

The main issue in my opinion is the AF system, i.e. how to get a fast AF
system without the mirror (the phase AF seems to need a mirror). As for
resolution and refresh speed of the EVF I would expect the EVFs to
quickly improve, although already now they are good enough for most
purposes (ever tried to manually focus through an optical viewfinder?).


So, you are looking at a LCD instead of a real image? No thanks! Why
would anyone choose to look at an LCD over an optical view finder?!?

Anyway, I don't care what Olympus and Panasonic are doing to be honest,
which says it all.

There are a number of things an EVF can do, such as display a histogram,
with flashing 'blown out' areas, or other optional settings, and status
information. Still, I MUCH prefer a real image from a good viewfinder.

In article , Robert Sneddon
wrote:

Classic mirror-flip SLRs show a false image -- what is shown in the
viewfinder is not the image currently impinging on the recording surface
(whether it is film or an electronic sensor) but an image bounced off a
mirror, round a prism and through assorted other lenses before it gets
to the camera user's eye. Hopefully it is calibrated accurately and the
viewfinder image's focussing matches the recording surface, otherwise
there's a lot of out-of-focus shots and an expensive trip to the camera
repair shop.

it's a rare exception when it's not accurately calibrated, and it is
*exactly* the same image as what hits the sensor (or film).

An EVF shows the user what the camera's sensor is seeing, not a
guesstimate of exposure and focus.

except when the camera uses a secondary sensor for live view, such as
in the sony dslrs. and the 'guesstimate' is not a guess at all -- the
optical path length is the same.

No thanks! Why would anyone choose to look at an LCD over an optical
view finder?!?

Image enhancement, preview zoom, movie mode, continuous pre-shoot,
high-speed continuous shooting, a whole range of reasons. Classic
mirror-flip SLR systems can't do these things, the new non-mirror
exchangeable-lens cameras will be able to. That's why mirror SLRs will
be left behind in the dustbin of history, in the same way wet-plate
chemistry photography was overtaken by "film".

except that autofocus off the sensor will be contrast detect and much
slower than phase detect, there's a lag time with evf (and it never can
be 0, although it might be 'good enough'), and evf works very poorly in
dim light. and if the lcd display is on the back of the camera, it may
be difficult to see in bright sunlight.

so mirrors aren't going away any time soon.