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In article , Bill W
wrote:

And finally regarding upgrading from XP, I use lots of software -
mostly music and photo, and almost none of it will run on XP. And I
think I'm a typical user.

as i said in another post, software developers aren't supporting xp
anymore.

just because there are a couple of apps that still run on xp doesn't
change that and it won't last long. how many apps still work on win98?

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

And finally regarding upgrading from XP, I use lots of software -
mostly music and photo, and almost none of it will run on XP. And I
think I'm a typical user.

as i said in another post, software developers aren't supporting xp
anymore.

Is that more of a case of XP not supporting software developers now
that there are few XP units extant?

no.

No point in expending time and
energy for the small demand.

small demand is one part of it. another part is that win7, 8 and 10
offer features not found in xp.

On Sun, 13 Sep 2015 09:49:27 -0400, Mayayana wrote:

| Most people logon to XP using an adminstrative account and they launch
| applications under that context whereas later versions of Windows at least
| have UAC which only elevates applications to run in the context of an
| adminstrative account if they require it, then there's the out of date
| security subsystem, lack of mandatory integrity control, user interface
| privilege isolation, windows service hardening, lack of a whole raft of
| group policy additions, it's missing a load of encryption additions and
| improvements in later versions of windies, the firewall is dated, and so
on
| and so on.
|

That's a rather general list, without details.

FFS. When did your last slave die? Try using Google.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securi..._Windows_Vista
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_I...lege_Isolation


It's true that Win7 is somewhat safer in being
locked down. Someone who knows nothing is
probably better off on Win7, running as a lackey
user and bogged down with AV. But that also
has a lot of disadvantages. The AV drags on
the system

I haven't noticed AV dragging on my system since dual core processors
became common and that was a long time ago. WTF are you running.

and lackey mode requires dealing with
the hassles of "elevation" to access files and
programs. Some things are more than just hassles.
For instance, I keep VBScripts on my Desktop for
various things. The right-click menu has no
elevation option when clicking a VBScript. That
means I can't drag-drop onto a script without
running as admin. And so on....

Terrible. Not that I believe you. I've seen elevation workarounds for
vbscript, and I bet if I tried I could find a workaround for the drag drop
issue.

You'll be safer around your house if you lock
up all of your sharp objects. If you always wear
a helmet then you won't crack your skull if you
slip in the bathtub. But of course there are
tradeoffs. (Like very dirty hair and an inability
to eat meat except by tearing at it with your
teeth.

There were studies at one point showing Vista
was safer than Win7. Microsoft was criticized for
allowing restrictions to be dialed down in Win7 via
the UAC controls. But those restrictions are also
the main reason that Vista was disliked so much.

I like Vista. I was in from the gitgo.

People widely believe that Vista is junk and Win7
is great. They're virtually the same thing! The big
difference is that Win7 restrictions can be dialed
down. The screen doesn't turn dark and scream
DEFCON 4! every time one tries to get something
accomplished.

I don't dial down UAC.

When I run on Win7 I run as admin. I remove file
restrictions rather than deal with elevation hassles.
When I first got Win7 I actually wrote a program to
remove all restrictions on *anything*. I don't have
time or patience for that nonsense.

Typical.

It's primarily
designed to block corporate employees from accessing
the system. It wasn't designed to provide you with
online security.

Complete ********. You made that up.

I don't know what group policy changes you're talking
about, but did you know that GPE is just a front-end
for corporate IT people who don't know how to use
Regedit efficiently?

That's complete ******** as well. For a start not all group policy settings
have a direct equilvalence to registry settings.

It doesn't even exist on Windows
Home version.

Well it does so. A cut down version. Local security policy. Under Windows
10 you have to run mmc and add a security template.

So GP options are not necessarily relevant.
It depends on what they're doing.

Windows firewall is outdated? Who uses Windows
firewall?

Me.

It was insufficient from the start and allows
Windows to go online. That's one of the critical points
that people often igno If you assume people on XP
are going online with default settings, using IE6 without
extra security, then you have a point. But people don't go
online with an OS. They go online with software. People
on XP can use the same version of Firefox that everyone
else uses.

Firewalls are another case where
convenience often trumps functionality. One of the best
firewalls ever was AtGuard, for Win98.

Really, for Win98. You guys. Have you any idea what the Win7 personal
firewall is capable of? I doubt it.

Symantec then
licensed the program doubled the price, repackeged it,
set over 700 programs to be allowed through by default,
then sold that mess as Norton Internet Security. It was
perhaps the best firewall ever rendered as nearly useless,
for twice the price. But it was a big success. No hassles
when everything is allowed to go through!

So any of these points you're making need to be
detailed in order to be relevant. And then they
probably need to be taken with a grain of salt.

I'm sorry you don't understand them. Detailing them is pointless. There are
authoritative and detailed resources about them online. I suggest you start
with a course on Googling first though.

Also, a lot of bugs involve elevation hacks and a
lot of them are 0-day. In such a case, running on
Win7 in lackey mode is not going to help you.

OK, we're doomed. Let's do nothing.

It's *far* safer to run safe in the first place: Don't
use IE.

Complete ********. IE11 + EMET is the dogs.

Avoid javascript when possible.

Javascript runs at a lower integrity level in modern browsers and in
addition I use EMET. I embrace Javascript. It's great.

Block frames.

Really. Why?

Don't install any Adobe crap.

Flash changed the web. You should show more respect.

(Flash can be avoided
and there are better, safer PDF readers that don't
need to work as browser plugins).

Better, I don't think so. Adobe Reader always works. Renders sweet. I run
that under EMET as well, and Flash.

Don't install Java...

I wonder how you get any work done. There's no ****ing way I'm not going to
use Java if I need it. If the best tool is a Java app I'm going to use it.

or Silverlight.

No one messes with my Netflix.

With a few basic precautions like that --

BASIC. Larf. Why buy a racehorse and hobble it.

and care in opening email -- there's very little way
that you can be attacked.

I've just thought of one.

People who always allow script and may even have
Flash or Acrobat Reader installed, then talk about
not running as admin, are like someone who locks
his car but leaves his wallet sitting on the hood.

That's not a remotely decent analogy.

Sent from my iFurryUnderbelly.

--
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Internet Terrorist, Mass sock puppeteer, Agent provocateur, Gutter rat,
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On Sun, 13 Sep 2015 10:46:03 -0400, Mayayana wrote:

| xp is outdated because it's no longer being supported by microsoft or
| software developers.
|
| The latter is not entirely true. Some developers are continuing to
| support XP. Malwarebytes is one of them.
|
| But that sucks doesn't it. It's like only 10% of the team turning up. You
| can't expect to win at football if only the goalie plays.
|

10%? Adobe's cloud scam won't run on XP. Aside
from that? Pale Moon recently stopped supporting XP.
Firefox still supports XP. As does Libre Office. So far,
Pale Moon is the only issue I've come across. Last
year I bought PSP 16. That runs on XP. All the
software I use works fine, and I've had no problems
with updates. I just updated one of my own programs,
in fact. The update runs on XP+, but I also still provide
the old version, which supports Win98 to Win10.
(Though I only test now on XP and Win7.)

WinXP is still widely used, both in PCs and in kiosk
version. It's not a fringe OS yet. If it were then
people wouldn't be sticking with it. What you're
talking about is just the marketing disinformation
that Microsoft puts out.

Look at how this discussion is proceeding. Several
people who don't use XP keep insisting that it's no
longer usable, so we must update to Win10. (Even
Win7 is now 5 years old, so by your logic it's also
over the hill.) Yet the XP users are not complaining.
Why are *you* so worried about whether people on
XP can run their software?

You keep making a ton of assumptions. I run XP on my netbook, although I
don't usually go online with it. I also run Vista, Windows 7, Windows 10,
SuSE Linux, Fedora, and FreeBSD. I'm not *worried* at all. I'm quite
relaxed. I never suggested XP isn't useable, but without security patches
from Microsoft I'm not betting the business on it and using it frequently
online. I don't need to. I don't want to risk it. That doesn't mean I'm not
going to visit known web sites if I need an update of something. Seems a
reasonable stance to take. Feel free to do whatever you ****ing like.

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--
p-0.0-h the cat

Internet Terrorist, Mass sock puppeteer, Agent provocateur, Gutter rat,
Devil incarnate, Linux user#666, ******* hacker, Resident evil, Monkey Boy,
Certifiable criminal, Spineless cowardly scum, textbook Psychopath,
the SCOURGE, l33t p00h d3 tr0ll, p00h == lam3r, p00h == tr0ll,
troll infâme, the OVERCAT [The BEARPAIR are dead, and we are its murderers]
lowlife troll, shyster [pending approval by STATE_TERROR], cripple,
sociopath, kook, smug prick, smartarse, arsehole, moron, idiot, imbecile,
snittish scumbag, liar, total ******* retard, shill, pooh-seur,
scouringerer, the most complete ignoid, and furball.

NewsGroups Numbrer One Terrorist

Honorary SHYSTER and FRAUD awarded for services to Haberdashery.
By Appointment to God Frank-Lin.

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On 2015-09-13 20:21:21 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

On Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:58:49 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Bill W
wrote:

And finally regarding upgrading from XP, I use lots of software -
mostly music and photo, and almost none of it will run on XP. And I
think I'm a typical user.

as i said in another post, software developers aren't supporting xp
anymore.

Is that more of a case of XP not supporting software developers now
that there are few XP units extant? No point in expending time and
energy for the small demand.

The reason many software developers are not supporting XP is much the
same reason developers no longer support OSX 10.6.8 "Snow Leopard"(SL),
the capability of new versions and revisions of their software would
have to be crippled if they were to maintain backward compatibility.
The newer OSs, for both Win and OSX provide opportunity for developing
new software features and performance improvements over the versions
written for the now unsupported OSs.
Why should any developer ignore new and advanced OSs to support an OS
put out to pasture by its parent company, when they need to move on?

Consider Adobe, many folks felt they were compeled to upgrade from XP
and SL when Adobe dropped support for the OSs abandoned by MS and
Apple, but if you wanted to run PS CS6 and later, or LR5 and LR CC you
had no option but to upgrade from XP, or SL and move on.

Even today in the Mac world there are many who will not upgrade from
SL, or who run it in a seperate partition because there is a favorite
software which does not exist for the newer editions of OSX. Snow
Leopard has in many ways become Apple's XP.
http://www.computerworld.com/article/2476004/mac-os-x/why-mac-users-still-use-os-x-snow-leopard.html

The

same thing applies to much new software written for Mac today, they
never had SL editions and never will, I think of the decent PS
substitutes Pixelmator and Affinity Photo, but those are not multi
platform apps either, and can fully take advantage of current OSX
features.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On Sun, 13 Sep 2015 16:20:11 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

Nothing is according to me. I've published no papers or articles
myself on the subject. This is all from other sources. Respected, IT,
sources. I've made no claims that Microsoft can outright steal
anything, either. How do you steal something in the digital world? Do
you intend to delete the file when you're done copying it, so the
original owner no longer has it?

Sorry, but with that response you're not holding a discussion, you're
engaging in netloonery.

plonk

Ha Ha. +1. Spot the pirate.

Sent from my iFurryUnderbelly.

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p-0.0-h the cat

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Devil incarnate, Linux user#666, ******* hacker, Resident evil, Monkey Boy,
Certifiable criminal, Spineless cowardly scum, textbook Psychopath,
the SCOURGE, l33t p00h d3 tr0ll, p00h == lam3r, p00h == tr0ll,
troll infâme, the OVERCAT [The BEARPAIR are dead, and we are its murderers]
lowlife troll, shyster [pending approval by STATE_TERROR], cripple,
sociopath, kook, smug prick, smartarse, arsehole, moron, idiot, imbecile,
snittish scumbag, liar, total ******* retard, shill, pooh-seur,
scouringerer, the most complete ignoid, and furball.

NewsGroups Numbrer One Terrorist

Honorary SHYSTER and FRAUD awarded for services to Haberdashery.
By Appointment to God Frank-Lin.

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In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

as i said in another post, software developers aren't supporting xp
anymore.

Is that more of a case of XP not supporting software developers now
that there are few XP units extant?

no.

No point in expending time and
energy for the small demand.

small demand is one part of it. another part is that win7, 8 and 10
offer features not found in xp.

Right. Like I said, XP is not supporting software developers enough
to make them want to expend time and energy on developing apps for a
diminishing market.

operating systems do not support developers. it's the other way around.

developers support operating systems based on the features offered.
they don't support xp anymore because it can't do what they need to do.

Their financial support comes from developing
products for the larger market.

the main reason is that creating compelling apps on xp is no longer
possible.

In article 2015091314381064254-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
Savageduck wrote:


And finally regarding upgrading from XP, I use lots of software -
mostly music and photo, and almost none of it will run on XP. And I
think I'm a typical user.

as i said in another post, software developers aren't supporting xp
anymore.

Is that more of a case of XP not supporting software developers now
that there are few XP units extant? No point in expending time and
energy for the small demand.

The reason many software developers are not supporting XP is much the
same reason developers no longer support OSX 10.6.8 "Snow Leopard"(SL),
the capability of new versions and revisions of their software would
have to be crippled if they were to maintain backward compatibility.

correct, and it isn't just 10.6 on the apple side.

developers are starting to require yosemite/10.10 because the features
it offers are so compelling.

The newer OSs, for both Win and OSX provide opportunity for developing
new software features and performance improvements over the versions
written for the now unsupported OSs.
Why should any developer ignore new and advanced OSs to support an OS
put out to pasture by its parent company, when they need to move on?

exactly.

people want the new features because they are more productive and can
do things they couldn't otherwise do.

On Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:41:40 +0100, David Taylor
wrote:

On 13/09/2015 09:44, Eric Stevens wrote:
[]
Two examples:

I had from the outset been an administrator (naughty-naughty) and had
no problems when I ran DataColor's Spyder 4 or 5. Suddenly W7 stopped
allowing Spyder to save profiles until (as I eventually discovered) I
right-clicked and selected 'run as administrator'. I mean to say I
always thought I was running it as administrator.

You cannot move a file from one physical device to another. All you
can do is copy them. This goes back to the year . of computing.
Dropbox has always behaved the same way: you can only copy a file to
Dropbox, you cannot move it. Suddenly I found that (Whoops) dragging a
file from "XXX" to Dropbox resulted in it being moved rather than
copied.

There are other examples but I'm not going to run through them right
now.

As you say, running a program as Administrator (but why does it need
that?) is a right-click away. Same applies in Win-10.

I was discussing what happened to W7. For several years it never used
to require a right-click run as administrator to save a new screen
profile from Spyder - then - suddenly it did. No warning and no
official explanation.

You can most certainly move a file from one device to another in Win-10!
Select the files, and use the right mouse button. When you release
the mouse button, it allows either move or copy in addition to Create
shortcut.

Once again I was talking about W7. This time when copying files into
Dropbox. Suddenly, when selecting a file with left-click, dragging
didn't just copy a file into Dropbox: it moved it, leaving nothing in
the directory from which it had come.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

| The reason many software developers are not supporting XP is much the
| same reason developers no longer support OSX 10.6.8 "Snow Leopard"(SL),
| the capability of new versions and revisions of their software would
| have to be crippled if they were to maintain backward compatibility.

In most cases that's not true. Apple generally supports
2 versions back. Their customers are willing to shell out
for new hardware. Windows has a tradition of backward
compatibility because Microsoft's main customer is business.
Business people won't update to a newer system if it
breaks the software they need. As a result, much of what
runs on Win10 will run on Win98. The general API has been
maintained with great consistency for the sake of business
customers. In many cases new software would need some
updated system files to run on older Windows versions, but
Microsoft is good about that, too. (Not because they're
more considerate than Apple. Simply because Apple targets
the consumer entertainment market and MS targets the
business market.)

Things like games usually take advantage of the very
latest developments, like the latest DirectX. Aside from
that, it's usually not a big deal to support any system
that's already been supported. For instance, program
XYZ supports XP. Vista comes out. The developers adapt
XYZ to support Vista. Likewise with Win7. It usually
doesn't take much. So most of the companies will continue
supporting the Windows versions they already targetted.

With new software it might be different. It depends on
what it is, how deeply into the system it needs to go, and
whether the developers think it's worthwhile to support
minority systems. The one notable difference with XP now
is that they have an excuse if they don't want to support
it. When MS drops support that provides an excuse for
others to drop support.

With all this talk of dropped support I still haven't seen
any list of popular software that won't run on XP. All I'm
aware of is newer versions of Pale Moon and Adobe's
cloud scam, as I said earlier. Those are not a problem for
me. Of course I can't get IE 11, but I wouldn't allow it if
I could. And I can't install the latest
version of MS Office. That, likewise, I wouldn't take for
free. Microsoft has maintained their Office monopoly for
years by breaking compatibility so that people have to
constantly update. Fortunately Libre Office solves that
problem for many people.

XP is being phased out more, so I expect more support
will be dropped in the next 1-3 years. But I'm not worried
for the foreseeable future. I'm still running Visual Studio 6
on XP, writing software that runs on anything from Win98
to Win10. That can't be said of newer programming tools.
..Net has limited support and is already being scaled back.
Metro apps are basically phone/tablet apps that can only
run on Win8/10 at best.