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Comparative Results - Canon S2 vs Pan FZ5



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 7th 05, 07:20 PM
David J Taylor
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per wrote:
Here are other comparisons between those:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canons2is/page8.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canons2is/page9.asp


Yes, and the ISO 400 shots show how the noise reduction algorithms differ
between the two cameras, with the Panasonic retaining sharpness, while
perhaps the Canon has lower noise! Plenty to choose from.....

David


  #12  
Old July 7th 05, 07:44 PM
measekite
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Are you saying that this is not an honest comparison and one should not
rely on it?

David J Taylor wrote:

measekite wrote:


What is your take on the rest of the images. It seems that the color
of the Canon, especially in the portraits, are more realistic (at
least on the screen. I eventually will run them throught photoshop
auto.xxx and print them) and that the Canon prints result in more
pleasing color. It also appears even on the house image that the
Canon colors appeared true. Maybe I do not know what to look for.



The only one where colour struck me was the flash photo, where the Canon
(at least on the thumbnail) was wildly different on the background between
the with and without flash. Apart from that, every digital camera will
produce a slightly different colour rendition and this, coupled with
differences in printers, probably means that no camera and printer will
produce an accurate colour rendition, so all will need adjustment one way
or another.

Given that the images of the house were taken over two months apart (look
at the EXIF information on the JPEGs), how can one expect the colours to
be the same? Actually, there's some critical point I'm missing here -
given that the images were taken two months apart, how can the angle of
the sun be exactly the same? These aren't images of real objects, but
images of other images! No way can you compare the colour rendition
unless you are buying a camera to photograph other photographs.

Cheers,
David




  #13  
Old July 7th 05, 07:46 PM
Dave Sill
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"David J Taylor" writes:

It completely invalidates any colour comparison.


Not exactly.

The spectrum of light emitted from the "grass" on a photograph or print
will differ completely from the spectrum from real grass - consider the
near IR reflected from the chlorophyll for example, or the reflectivity in
near-UV of some flowers. The camera's RGB, CMY or RGBC sensors will react
differently to artificial colours than real ones.


The purpose of those photos is to compare different cameras taking a
photo of the same subject. The fact that the grass isn't real doesn't
mean you can't compare the FZ photo of the photo to the S2 photo of
the same photo.

Obviously you can't use the photos to predict how the cameras will
capture a different-but-similar real scene, for the reasons you stated
above.

-Dave
  #14  
Old July 7th 05, 07:57 PM
measekite
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Does it also invalidate the portrait in sunlight of the woman. It seems
that the color and also the exposure of the FZ5 are not as pleasing.

I was also thinking of something else. Eventually I am planning on
buying a DRXT or a 20D (if someone does not talk me into getting a Nikon
D70s. Would the Canon S2 results and the Canon DSLR results look closer
since they are both from the Canon family or does that not make a
difference.?

David J Taylor wrote:

Dave Sill wrote:


"David J Taylor"

writes:



Given that the images of the house were taken over two months apart
(look at the EXIF information on the JPEGs), how can one expect the
colours to be the same? Actually, there's some critical point I'm
missing here - given that the images were taken two months apart,
how can the angle of the sun be exactly the same? These aren't
images of real objects, but images of other images! No way can you
compare the colour rendition unless you are buying a camera to
photograph other photographs.


Yes, the house images are photographs of photographs. But that doesn't
invalidate the comparison: the camera has no way of telling that the
photons it sees are reflected from paper rather than real
grass/trees/house.

-Dave



It completely invalidates any colour comparison.

The spectrum of light emitted from the "grass" on a photograph or print
will differ completely from the spectrum from real grass - consider the
near IR reflected from the chlorophyll for example, or the reflectivity in
near-UV of some flowers. The camera's RGB, CMY or RGBC sensors will react
differently to artificial colours than real ones.

David




  #15  
Old July 7th 05, 08:03 PM
measekite
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David J Taylor wrote:

per wrote:


Here are other comparisons between those:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canons2is/page8.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canons2is/page9.asp



Yes, and the ISO 400 shots show how the noise reduction algorithms differ
between the two cameras, with the Panasonic retaining sharpness, while
perhaps the Canon has lower noise! Plenty to choose from.....

David



The only conclusive statement that I can make at the present time is
that they are differences and they are noticeable. However, I cannot
tell if one is considered better quality over the other. I am not even
sure which I like better and when I can express a preference it does not
always point to the same camera.

The only thing that I can categorically state is.

Favor Panasonic - Black Body, Lens Hood and Filter Ring, smaller and
lighter, currently cheaper

Favor Canon - Leader in making digital cameras, swiveling lcd, better
movie mode





  #16  
Old July 7th 05, 08:04 PM
David J Taylor
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measekite wrote:
Are you saying that this is not an honest comparison and one should
not rely on it?


In terms of photographing real objects, taking photographs of photgraphs
is, in my opnion, completely useless. I'm not saying it's dishonest,
simply that the results will not be representative of photographing actual
grass, trees, houses etc..

Cheers,
David


  #17  
Old July 7th 05, 08:06 PM
David J Taylor
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measekite wrote:
Does it also invalidate the portrait in sunlight of the woman. It
seems that the color and also the exposure of the FZ5 are not as
pleasing.


I don't know. It that a photograph of a photograph again?

I was also thinking of something else. Eventually I am planning on
buying a DRXT or a 20D (if someone does not talk me into getting a
Nikon D70s. Would the Canon S2 results and the Canon DSLR results
look closer since they are both from the Canon family or does that
not make a difference.?

David J Taylor wrote:


I don't know, but I would suspect that it's two different design teams,
certainly two different sensors, aimed at two different markets. My guess
is "no". Perhaps there's someone who owns both cameras who can comment?

David


  #18  
Old July 7th 05, 08:11 PM
David J Taylor
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Dave Sill wrote:
"David J Taylor"

writes:

It completely invalidates any colour comparison.


Not exactly.

The spectrum of light emitted from the "grass" on a photograph or
print will differ completely from the spectrum from real grass -
consider the near IR reflected from the chlorophyll for example, or
the reflectivity in near-UV of some flowers. The camera's RGB, CMY
or RGBC sensors will react differently to artificial colours than
real ones.


The purpose of those photos is to compare different cameras taking a
photo of the same subject. The fact that the grass isn't real doesn't
mean you can't compare the FZ photo of the photo to the S2 photo of
the same photo.

Obviously you can't use the photos to predict how the cameras will
capture a different-but-similar real scene, for the reasons you stated
above.

-Dave


Yes, but the difference is critical. Of course you can compare, and
indeed see the much worse JPEG compression artefacts and other errors on
the Canon images. But someone is already comparing these images as if
they were images of actual objects, and I feel they are being misled.

You may beg to differ, but I think that you cannot use photographs of
photographs to compare the colour response of cameras to real-wordl
objects with any degree of accuracy.

Cheers,
David


  #19  
Old July 7th 05, 08:17 PM
David J Taylor
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measekite wrote:
[]
The only conclusive statement that I can make at the present time is
that they are differences and they are noticeable. However, I cannot
tell if one is considered better quality over the other. I am not
even sure which I like better and when I can express a preference it
does not always point to the same camera.

The only thing that I can categorically state is.

Favor Panasonic - Black Body, Lens Hood and Filter Ring, smaller and
lighter, currently cheaper

Favor Canon - Leader in making digital cameras, swiveling lcd, better
movie mode


I'd modify that slightly:

- Canon leads in some aspects of digital cameras but not all.

- from the samples presented, the images from the Canon are noticeably
worse than those from the FZ5

You now have to decide whether the other factors you listed are more
important, perhaps making up some sort of weighted comparison chart and
see which camera score the most points for your weighting of the factors.

What is perhaps more important is to handle both cameras and see which you
prefer. I don't think you would go wrong with either.

Cheers,
David


  #20  
Old July 7th 05, 08:46 PM
Dave Sill
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"David J Taylor" writes:

Yes, but the difference is critical. Of course you can compare, and
indeed see the much worse JPEG compression artefacts and other errors on
the Canon images. But someone is already comparing these images as if
they were images of actual objects, and I feel they are being misled.


If you click on any of the sample images, there's a link at the top
to:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/TIPS/TESTS/TESTS.HTM

which explains each test photo and the rationale behind it. E.g., for
the house photo:

The "House" Poster

This is another studio poster shot, created mainly to stress the
detail-resolving power of the cameras. The original was shot on 35mm
Kodak Royal Gold 25 color-negative film, perhaps the sharpest and
finest-grained color emulsion on the market today. It was scanned to
a 72 megabyte RGB file via PhotoCD Pro, then cropped, converted to
the CMYK color space, and printed on a large-format poster machine.
You'll find the best areas for evaluating detail are in the center
and top of the image: The bricks, details in the windows, and the
fine patterns of leaves, sticks, and pine needles against the sky
are all good subjects for seeing detail in the cameras. The subtle
gradations of gray in the shingles on the house's roof also turn out
to be a excellent indicator of how well cameras do in preserving
subtle tonal variations in the face of the JPEG image-compression
most cameras use. Overall, the detail in this poster is quite fine,
and should work well for evaluating cameras up to about 2.5-3
megapixels. (At that point, we'll need to make a new poster, perhaps
starting with medium-format film, and output on one of the new
1440-dpi high-resolution large-format inkjet printers.)

A couple of deficiencies in this poster are important to note
though, one having to do with the lens used to capture the original
shot, and one with the reproduction process itself. Sharp eyes
looking at pictures taken with higher-resolution cameras will note a
"softness" in the corners of the picture, most evident as a lack of
texture in the grass at lower left. This is an artifact of the
camera lens used, a Nikkor 35-85 mm f4.5-5.6 zoom set at about a
40-45mm focal length, mounted on a Nikon 6006 camera. We didn't
realize until after the poster was made that this lens loses some
resolution in the corners, resulting in the lack of fine texture in
the grass at lower left. The other issue with this image is that the
amount of "unsharp masking" applied to the image was slightly high
for the printing process, with the result that there are very thin,
but noticeable "halos" around the fine branches silhouetted against
the sky. While these halos themselves are a feature that can test
camera resolution, they can also aggravate the effects of in-camera
image sharpening. Neither of these issues is a "killer" in our view,
but they do somewhat restrict the usefulness of images from this
target. (For instance, we can't very well use it to evaluate corner
sharpness of the cameras we test!)

You may beg to differ, but I think that you cannot use photographs of
photographs to compare the colour response of cameras to real-wordl
objects with any degree of accuracy.


No, I agree completely and said as much in my previous message.

-Dave
 




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