Sigma Digital SLR Cameras.

John McWilliams wrote in message news:BJhCc.96372$Sw.89183@attbi_s51...
The current
implementation of the Foveon chip is superior to all other chip
technologies.

John,

I am not sure that "Preddy" is really going out on a limb with a claim
like that. In terms of technology, there are a lot of people -
including many inside Canon and Sony - who believe the *technology* is
superior. Whether the current implementation is superior is something
one could debate about.

Moreover, "Mr." "Preddy" has claimed to be a photographer (pro!), but
cannot bring himself to post a single picture with EXIF info that he
shot himself, in spite of repeated requests and challenges to do so.

Well, if non-delivery pertains to poor character, then I guess he is
sharing good company with dear Steven, who claims the SD10 only has
3.34 MP of resolution. Whether this is true or not could be cleared up
quickly if he will just nominate whatever image from a 3.5 MP CFA
camera he wants. However, he also refuses to deliver. Therefore,
applying your logic, just as "Preddy" is not a "pro" for not
delivering his images to you, "Steven" is not an authority for not
delivery comparable images. At least from the reception "Preddy" gets
around here (deserved or not) I can understand why he would not want
to deliver up images to these toothless lions. In Steven's case, his
being an authority and all (with an outstandingly informative website
on Sigma), I cannot understand why he would not want to deliver up his
nominations.

Apparently he loathes anything related to Canon and loves everything
about Sigma cameras and lenses. His "claims" may be ignored, and he is
doing Sigma, and anyone related to the Foveon chip, no good at all by
arousing ire, increasing the N/S ratio, and generally spamming this
newsgroup.

Apparently Steven loathes anything related to Sigma and loves
everything about CFA cameras and Canon lenses. His "claims" may be
ignored, but he is doing Canon, and anyone related to the CFA chip, no
good at all by arousing ire, increasing the resolution, and generally
spamming the Internet with his lies.

Kibo informs me that (Laurence Matson) stated that:

Well, if non-delivery pertains to poor character, then I guess he is
sharing good company with dear Steven, who claims the SD10 only has
3.34 MP of resolution.

Which is 100% correct. The *fact* is that its sensor has 3.34 million
pixels of resolution. This has been pointed out to you innumerable
times, yet you keep on coming up with increasingly silly arguments in an
attempt to justify your belief that this is not the case.
OTOH, you are welcome to claim that the 3.34 million Foveon sensor
pixels are *superior in quality* to the equivalent number of
Canon/Nikon/Fuji pixels, & I (& others here) might well agree with you,
particularly in terms of chroma detail.
However, in terms of resolution (digital resolution, not optical
resolution, which is a separate issue again), a pixel is a pixel is a
pixel, & pixel resolution is simply the number of pixels in a row,
multiplied by the number of pixels in each column. Each of those pixels
could be luma only, RGB (eg; Foveon), CFA (eg; Bayer) or even more
exotic varieties, but none of that relates to the resolution of the
sensor array, only to the colour depth or *quality* of that pixel.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Laurence Matson wrote:

John McWilliams wrote in message news:BJhCc.96372$Sw.89183@attbi_s51...

You left out an important bit...
" He, the imposter/Troll/whatever "Mr. Preddy" believes that:
The current implementation of the Foveon chip is superior to all other chip
technologies.


John,

I am not sure that "Preddy" is really going out on a limb with a claim
like that. In terms of technology, there are a lot of people -
including many inside Canon and Sony - who believe the *technology* is
superior. Whether the current implementation is superior is something
one could debate about.

That's been "debated" to death. Only you and GP claim a ~3.3 MP Foveon
chip gives results as good as a ~6.3 MP Nikon or Canon.

I'd be happy to test out any new Foveon based dSLR when one is made
whose end product is as good as or better than prosumer cameras from the
Bayer tech. folks.

Moreover, "Mr." "Preddy" has claimed to be a photographer (pro!), but
cannot bring himself to post a single picture with EXIF info that he
shot himself, in spite of repeated requests and challenges to do so.


Well, if non-delivery pertains to poor character, then I guess he is
sharing good company with dear Steven, who claims the SD10 only has
3.34 MP of resolution.

But that's exactly what it has! Kill the Marketing Dept.!

Please don't bring another into this conversation. He's more than able
to join if he wishes, and I do believe that it's clear my non-delivery
clause relates to "GP"'s inability to make images and post them.

--

John McWilliams

In message ,
(Laurence Matson) wrote:

I am not sure that "Preddy" is really going out on a limb with a claim
like that. In terms of technology, there are a lot of people -
including many inside Canon and Sony - who believe the *technology* is
superior. Whether the current implementation is superior is something
one could debate about.

So, now you are starting to admit that there are problems with the
current Foveon sensor. That's a measure of progress, but just remember
that most of the emotion you saw from Foveon nay-sayers when you
appeared here had to do with your assertion that the current Foveon was
superior technology (and your fore-runners here, like "George Preddy"
and Guido V.).

At the end of the day, the current X3 does not have very accurate color;
it only has higher resolution per pixel of certain color pairs than the
Bayers. The extra sharpness is due more to aliasing than real
sharpness, due to a lack of proper alias filtering in the Sigma cameras.

Not even the most vehement Foveon detractor here would argue that full
RGB at each pixel would not be better than a CFA capture, all other
things being equal. They are not equal. The better Bayer DSLRs have
more accurate color than the X3; just at a lower resolution. The
AA-filtered bayer images, even though they tend to be soft out of the
camera, are much better at giving information about where points of
light and edges are actually located in an image, with sub-pixel
precision. The Sigmas snap everything in sharp focus to a grid of
inaccurate sharpness, and often doubles things that are almost that
sharp (the hollow hairs and such that you often see).
--


John P Sheehy

John McWilliams wrote in
news:OhWCc.116181$0y.112976@attbi_s03:

That's been "debated" to death. Only you and GP claim a ~3.3 MP Foveon
chip gives results as good as a ~6.3 MP Nikon or Canon.

Actually I have seen numerous claims by the idiot Preddy that the 3.43 MPix
Foveon ‘blow away’ the 11.1 MPix Canon 1Ds. Obviously claims like that
make it easy to see that anything GP claims can be taken with a grain of
salt.

On the review at dpreview.com for the Sigma SD10 the comparison to the
Canon 10D suggests that the resolution is about the same between the two.
Obviously when each sensor only senses one of the three colours, then the
data is interpolated, there must be some loss of resolution compared to
sampling 3 times the data at each location. GPs contention that the Sigma
is vastly superior is not at all supported by this review, the review says
that they are very close in image detail.

However when the Sigma SD-10 is compared to the Canon 10D and all factors
are considered - dpreview agrees with me that the Canon is the better
choice. If some Sigma lenses are so good that they have no equal in any
other brand, then OK I can buy them for my 10D, I don’t need a Sigma camera
to use Sigma lenses. But the Sigma SD-10 is very limited on what lenses
are available for it to use. At higher ISO I think that my 10D is also way
better than the Sigma.




--
Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~markh/
"There are 10 types of people, those that
understand binary and those that don't"

MarkH wrote:

John McWilliams wrote in
news:OhWCc.116181$0y.112976@attbi_s03:=20
=20
=20
That's been "debated" to death. Only you and GP claim a ~3.3 MP Foveon
chip gives results as good as a ~6.3 MP Nikon or Canon.
=20
=20
Actually I have seen numerous claims by the idiot Preddy that the 3.43 =
MPix=20
Foveon =91blow away=92 the 11.1 MPix Canon 1Ds. Obviously claims like =
that=20
make it easy to see that anything GP claims can be taken with a grain o=
f=20
salt.
=20
On the review at dpreview.com for the Sigma SD10 the comparison to the =

Canon 10D suggests that the resolution is about the same between the tw=
o. =20
Obviously when each sensor only senses one of the three colours, then t=
he=20
data is interpolated, there must be some loss of resolution compared to=
=20
sampling 3 times the data at each location. GPs contention that the Si=
gma=20
is vastly superior is not at all supported by this review, the review s=
ays=20
that they are very close in image detail.
=20
However when the Sigma SD-10 is compared to the Canon 10D and all facto=
rs=20
are considered - dpreview agrees with me that the Canon is the better=20
choice. If some Sigma lenses are so good that they have no equal in an=
y=20
other brand, then OK I can buy them for my 10D, I don=92t need a Sigma =
camera=20
to use Sigma lenses. But the Sigma SD-10 is very limited on what lense=
s=20
are available for it to use. At higher ISO I think that my 10D is also=
way=20
better than the Sigma.
=20
I don't think more than 4 people would disagree with what you say here.=20
It's too bad there's been so much chaff to cut through, and I do hope=20
the foveon chip makes it over the long haul.

--
John McWilliams

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Kibo informs me that (Laurence Matson) stated that:

Well, if non-delivery pertains to poor character, then I guess he is
sharing good company with dear Steven, who claims the SD10 only has
3.34 MP of resolution.

Which is 100% correct. The *fact* is that its sensor has 3.34 million
pixels of resolution. This has been pointed out to you innumerable
times, yet you keep on coming up with increasingly silly arguments in an
attempt to justify your belief that this is not the case.

3.43 actually.

See "http://sigmaphoto.com/html/Cameras_sd9.htm." Sigma hasn't yet fully
applied their new math to the SD9 page, and they still distinguish between
photodetectors and pixels.

It's not me that claims that the Foveon sensor is 3.43 megapixels, this is
an incontravertible fact, that even Sigma and Foveon admitted, until very
recently. I don't care if LM/GP/OW/SG/SQ/DG wants to assert that 10.29
megaphotodetectors are more than 6 megaphotodetectors, just as long as they
don't mislead people by equating a pixel and a photodetector.

LM/GP/OW/SG/SQ/DG also keeps claiming that Sigma is tha largest lens
manufacturer in the world, something that even Sigma is careful to avoid
claiming. Sigma accurately states: "As the world's largest independent
manufacturer of zoom and fixed focal length lenses... ." The qualifier of
"independent" is key, since they manufacture less lenses than Canon or
Nikon, but Nikon and Canon only manufacture lenses for their own lens
mounts. It wasn't until I saw the virtual identical wording in posts from
LM and GP, that I realized that they were likely one in the same.

Hard to understand the agenda of LM/GP/OW/SG/SQ/DG. Certainly they haven't
been successful in misleading anyone on rec.photo.digital, despite their
best efforts.

Steven M. Scharf wrote:

"Lionel" wrote in message
...

Kibo informs me that (Laurence Matson) stated that:


Well, if non-delivery pertains to poor character, then I guess he is
sharing good company with dear Steven, who claims the SD10 only has
3.34 MP of resolution.

Which is 100% correct. The *fact* is that its sensor has 3.34 million
pixels of resolution. This has been pointed out to you innumerable
times, yet you keep on coming up with increasingly silly arguments in an
attempt to justify your belief that this is not the case.


3.43 actually.

See "http://sigmaphoto.com/html/Cameras_sd9.htm." Sigma hasn't yet fully
applied their new math to the SD9 page, and they still distinguish between
photodetectors and pixels.

It's not me that claims that the Foveon sensor is 3.43 megapixels, this is
an incontravertible fact, that even Sigma and Foveon admitted, until very
recently. I don't care if LM/GP/OW/SG/SQ/DG wants to assert that 10.29
megaphotodetectors are more than 6 megaphotodetectors, just as long as they
don't mislead people by equating a pixel and a photodetector.

LM/GP/OW/SG/SQ/DG also keeps claiming that Sigma is tha largest lens
manufacturer in the world, something that even Sigma is careful to avoid
claiming. Sigma accurately states: "As the world's largest independent
manufacturer of zoom and fixed focal length lenses... ." The qualifier of
"independent" is key, since they manufacture less lenses than Canon or
Nikon, but Nikon and Canon only manufacture lenses for their own lens
mounts. It wasn't until I saw the virtual identical wording in posts from
LM and GP, that I realized that they were likely one in the same.

Hard to understand the agenda of LM/GP/OW/SG/SQ/DG. Certainly they haven't
been successful in misleading anyone on rec.photo.digital, despite their
best efforts.

For some of the above, the agenda has nought to do with photography, and
never will.

The sooner I stop mentioning some of those names the better.

--
John McWilliams

Edmund Blackadder and Baldrick converse:

EB: "First Name?"
B: "I'm not sure."
EB: "Come on, you MUST have a first name."
B: "It might be 'Sod Off'."
EB: "Sod Off??"
B: "Yeah, when I was a young lad playing in the gutter, I used to say to
all the other snipes, "Hello, my name's Baldrick". And they'd say, "Yes
we know, Sod Off, Baldrick"

- Blackadder and Baldrick filling out an application form.

"Peter A. Stavrakoglou" wrote in message t...
"Biff Mullins" wrote in message
m...

Thinking about buying the Sigma DSLR. Either the SD9 or the SD10.
Is the SD10 worth the extra money? What would be the best lens to
start out with.

Oh yeah, does anyone know when that Foveon point and shoot will be
available?

If you need higher ISO settings, the SD10 is the better choice. If
you shoot at lower ISO settings as I do (I'm just a causal
photographer) than the SD9 is just fine. IMO the 50mm EX lens is a
great starting point with either camera.

Peter is correct. The Sigma SD10 might actually be a bit too much
camera for many people, although I still recommend it to anyone
interested in photography because there is always room to grow. The
50mm EX is truly a great lens to start out with. I always start my
students off with a single prime lens. Once they master that
perspective, then they move on to others with ease.

In article , Giorgio
Preddio wrote:

Peter is correct. The Sigma SD10 might actually be a bit too much
camera for many people, although I still recommend it to anyone
interested in photography because there is always room to grow. The
50mm EX is truly a great lens to start out with. I always start my
students off with a single prime lens. Once they master that
perspective, then they move on to others with ease.

Oh, now you're a teacher George? What a fertile imagination!