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Modern Nikon D-SLR camera that takes standard AA batteries



 
 
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  #171  
Old August 3rd 06, 01:40 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
ASAAR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,057
Default Modern Nikon D-SLR camera that takes standard AA batteries

On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 09:33:19 -0700, SMS, whose motto appears to be
"See no truth, hear no truth, speak no truth" wrote:

Name somebody who takes that claim seriously.


Well of course I don't think anyone takes it seriously other than the
people that actually say it. You can say that about a lot of posts on
Usenet, like every post from ASAAR.


Not all of my posts are intended to be taken seriously. If you
want to believe, though, that none of my posts can be taken
seriously then you're either a fool, or more likely, that because
you've been caught yet again mixing a blend of biased, bogus and
deceptive statements, it's getting to you. And all you can do is
lash out with a baseless personal attack. But going by what I see
in messages posted in this newsgroup, far more people not only don't
take *you* seriously, but question your honesty as well. By now,
this question has been answered.


You're going to have to help me out here. The "middle of nowhere"
argument refers to what, exactly? The argument that refers to nothing
familiar is the weakest one of all, since it has no meaning to the
reader.


It's the claim that AA batteries are better because if you're ever stuck
somewhere out in the wilderness with a discharged battery, you can find
a general store that will have AA alkaline batteries for sale.


I can't recall anyone that has claimed that it makes AA batteries
better. It's just one of the minor advantages that AA batteries
provide, and is of more value to some people than it obviously is to
you. For some as yet unknown reason, you find this to be troubling.


Until then, your claim that the lower self-discharge rate
of Li-ion batteries is always an advantage for every application is
dishonest.


It's totally honest, and you know it. That's why you're so defensive
about it.


It's false, and I gave examples showing several cases backing this
up. But since you use a kill file you wouldn't easily get to see
it. How convenient for you. To repeat, at least for others, one
case is when batteries are used so heavily that they need to be
recharged more frequently than every 2 or 3 weeks. Under that
condition, the higher self-discharge rate of NiMH batteries is a
non-issue, and Li-Ion's lower self-discharge rate confers no
advantage. Another case is where the owner rarely uses the camera.
Some years maybe once or twice, other years not at all. I know a
good number of people that use their cameras this way. For them,
even though Li-Ion batteries have a low self-discharge rate, they'd
still have to be put on the charger 2 or 3 times per year. Primary
AA batteries (alkaline and lithium) have extremely long
self-discharge rates, far lower than Li-Ion. It's also known as
shelf life, and is about 8 years for alkalines and 16 years for
lithium. Due to using a different chemistry, all of the other
primary "photo" lithium batteries I've seen so far other than AA and
AAA cells have shorter shelf lives, comparable to alkalines, about 8
years. Now you know. Or would if you could, that is.


Steve. There are a lot of people for whom using AA NiMH batteries
is not a hassle.


They willingly deal with the hassle, but it's still a hassle.


There's critical thinking and SMS's thought processes, and never
the twain shall meet.


For those folks, the way out is to buy yet another charger that
handles most of their batteries. I hope you'll forgive me for
suggesting that people who are not yet trapped like that might
not see the situation you propose as advantageous.


You fail to understand that for most folks there is no way out of that
"trap." If you want a cell phone, Li-Ion is the only choice. If you want
a camcorder, Li-Ion is the only choice. If you want a notebook computer,
Li-Ion is the only choice, etc., etc..


Isn't it fortunate that with digital cameras, there actually *are*
other choices? You may not think so, but I do . . .


What you need to do is to simplify your life as best you can. For lower
power devics, a mini-USB charger connection would be ideal, and this is
what's used on some devices, but it isn't practical on high power
devices. Once you realize that the difference between most Li-Ion
batteries is only their physical dimensions and contact placement, a
universal charger is easy. Lenmar did it with adapter plates, Maha did
it with moveable contacts. Both can charge AA cells, as well as nearly
every Li-Ion battery with accessible contacts. The Maha can charge 1, 2,
3, & 4 cell Li-Ion batteries (3.7, 7.4, 11.1, & 14.8V), while the Lenmar
can charge only 1 & 2 cell. You could use the Maha for a notebook
computer battery, though usually it's difficult to get to the contacts
on such a battery.


I suppose someone should welcome you to the Brave New World of
"chipped" Li-Ion batteries. It's only a matter of time before not
only will devices reject the use of unauthorized batteries, but
smart, DRM-enabled batteries will not allow themselves to be charged
in unauthorized chargers. g

  #172  
Old August 3rd 06, 06:29 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Modern Nikon D-SLR camera that takes standard AA batteries

1,3,4,9 are true.

Point 2: A Li-ion battery actually has lower cycle life than Nimh
cells. (300)

Regarding the amount of energy, actually it's quite simple. From your
words I believe you are refering to the voltage per cell of the NiMH
which is lower (1.2v) than Li-Ion (3.6/3.7v). You should compare them
using watt-hours. Multiply the voltage of the battery pack with the
capacity in Amp hours and you'll get the figure. For example a Li-ion
cell with 3.7v, 650mAh will have 3.7 x 0.65 = 2.4 Watt hours. Do the
same with the NiMH cells and multiply the voltage with capacity. For
more info visit www.batteryuniversity.com to learn all you need about
batteries.

Amanda Williams wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 15:07:55 -0700, SMS wrote:

I suggest that you read http://batterydata.com
Li-Ion rechargeable batteries have the following advantages
1. Lower self-discharge
2. Higher number of cycles
3. Higher energy density
4. Better low-temperature performance
5. Comparable cost
6. Universal Li-Ion chargers
7. Protection circuitry integral to the battery
8. Accurate charge level indicator
9. Lower maintenance.
10. Higher-end cameras use Li-Ion batteries.


This is seemingly good information ... until you look analytically.

Let's pick one or two or three of your points above to see if these
arguments actually hold any water for this discussion of the Nikon D50
D-SLR.

I am particularly interested in item number 6. Where can I find this
"Universal Li-Ion Charger" that will not only charge my Nikon EN-EL3a but
also my Nikon Coolpix 5000 EN-EL1 and my JVC GR-DVL820U ER-C620 battery?

If your statement is even partially true, it would be a breakthrough in
battery technology of the order I was suggesting (i.e., universal USB
chargers).

Likewise with the higher energy density. Why is it that six very small and
lightweight AA batteries have about the same energy as two much larger and
heavier Nikon EN-EL3a batteries?

And, how is there "lower maintenance" for a sealed Li-Ion battery pack
(where the reverse polarity of just one cell cannot be resolved without
breaking the battery pack open and unsoldering the connections) vs the
perfectly reasonable replacement of a bad cell in AA technology (not
counting the fact that reverse polarity rarely occurs with AA cells because
they are constantly switched about in different orders with each use).

Can you explain these three anomolies?
- Where is this universal Li-Ion charger you bespeak of?
- Why doesn't our math support your higher-density argument?
- How can a sealed pack where one dead cell kills all give you lower
maintenance?

Please advise,
TIA,
Amanda W.


  #174  
Old August 3rd 06, 03:21 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
ASAAR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,057
Default Modern Nikon D-SLR camera that takes standard AA batteries

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 02:56:44 -0700, SMS the Li-Ion shill wrote:

Point 2: A Li-ion battery actually has lower cycle life than Nimh
cells. (300)


A NiMH battery degrades after 200-300 cycles (capacity is reduced after
that).

A Li-ion battery provides 300 to 500 discharge/charge cycles or two to
three years of service from the time of manufacturing, with very little
degradation.


Wrong, and as usual, misleading. Information from
www.energizer.com indicates that *ALL* rechargeable batteries
deteriorate with age (NiMH is no exception), but it's far slower
with NiMH, which can even be stored unused for five years before
being put into service. Li-Ion batteries would be of little use
long before that point is reached.

By showing "200-300" near NiMH and "300 to 500" near Li-Ion you
give the false impression that Li-Ion batteries provide more
recharge cycles than NiMH batteries. In fact, the opposite is true.

Different manufacturers claim that NiMH batteries are designed to
permit from 500 to 1000 recharge cycles. RayOVac says that theirs
can be recharged 500 times. End-of-life is considered to be when
the battery capacity has declined to 80% of the original capacity.
If you don't mind this reduced capacity, you can continue using your
old NiMH cells well beyond this point.

It would be possible to say that "A Li-Ion battery degrades after
20-30 cycles (capacity is reduced after that)" and it would be just
as incorrect and/or misleading as the similar statement that you
made about NiMH batteries. Where do you come up with this stuff?

As far as your optimistic "300 to 500 discharge/charge cycles or
two to three years of service" for Li-Ion batteries is concerned,
many iPod owners that have had to replace their batteries during the
first year of operation might take issue with your claim.

  #175  
Old August 4th 06, 05:19 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Paul Allen
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Posts: 301
Default Modern Nikon D-SLR camera that takes standard AA batteries

On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 09:33:19 -0700
SMS wrote:

Paul Allen wrote:

Name somebody who takes that claim seriously.


Well of course I don't think anyone takes it seriously other than the
people that actually say it. You can say that about a lot of posts on
Usenet, like every post from ASAAR.


(The claim being referred to is that some people think Li-ion batteries
are a conspiracy by camera makers.)

The only poster I've seen calling people who prefer AA batteries
conspiracy theorists is you. I rest my case. (I don't see the
recent development of chipped batteries as conspiracy, but rather
as unilateral attempts by individual camera makers to lock customers
in.)

You're going to have to help me out here. The "middle of nowhere"
argument refers to what, exactly? The argument that refers to
nothing familiar is the weakest one of all, since it has no meaning
to the reader.


It's the claim that AA batteries are better because if you're ever
stuck somewhere out in the wilderness with a discharged battery, you
can find a general store that will have AA alkaline batteries for
sale.


I guess your world is all black and white, huh? The ability to find
spare batteries in odd places actually is a small advantage. That's
simply a true statement. Characterizing the argument as "AA batteries
are better because you can find them everywhere" is dishonest.

For point and shoot cameras, it's an extremely common usage model
to use the camera only occasionally.


Sez you. Back it up with data and we can talk about who uses
cameras for what.


Cute.


I take it you don't have a response?

Until then, your claim that the lower self-discharge rate
of Li-ion batteries is always an advantage for every application is
dishonest.


It's totally honest, and you know it. That's why you're so defensive
about it.


Ummm, right. The hole you're in is getting deeper. The way out is
to actually think about what you're saying.

You're getting so close to admitting the truth here, but still using
language like "hassle" and "might be acceptable".


In fact, I say this exact thing on the web site.


Consistent dishonesty. How nice.

Tell the truth,
Steve. There are a lot of people for whom using AA NiMH batteries
is not a hassle.


They willingly deal with the hassle, but it's still a hassle.


You hear that everybody? Steve has just declared that using AA NiMH
batteries is officially a hassle. It doesn't matter what you think.
Steve has spoken!

What a crock.

You'd have to buy an AA charger anyway, as most AA cameras don't
come with them.


Dishonest, Steve. AA rechargeables are common, so many people
already have a charger that will serve.


Wait, didn't they have to buy that charger at some point? That was
band-aid solution, LOL.


Dishonest, Steve. It is irrelevant that the dusty AA charger in
the closet was purchased at some point. The point is that adding
a new proprietary battery to the mix forces the purchase of yet
another charger if one wants one charger to charge them all.

Yes There are people who have become trapped by the "every
device I own has a different proprietary battery" syndrome.


Well gee, show us all a cellular phone, or a camcorder, or a PDA, or
a notebook PC, that still uses AA batteries. You might find a low end
PDA, but nothing else.


The ubiquitous nature of li-ion batteries is irrelevant. AA
batteries still work fine in many applications. Simply admit that,
and a lot of this push-back stops.

For those folks, the way out is to buy yet another charger that
handles most of their batteries. I hope you'll forgive me for
suggesting that people who are not yet trapped like that might
not see the situation you propose as advantageous.


You fail to understand that for most folks there is no way out of
that "trap." If you want a cell phone, Li-Ion is the only choice. If
you want a camcorder, Li-Ion is the only choice. If you want a
notebook computer, Li-Ion is the only choice, etc., etc..


Relative unavoidability does not change the nature of the trap or
mean that I should prefer being trapped.

Paul Allen
 




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