Palestinians Under Attack

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:12:01 -0500, Stephen Bishop
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:16:44 -0600, "HEMI - Powered"
wrote:


And, YOUR country needs to get off it's ass and take it's place as
a key member of the international community and take decisive
action to protect itself and it's friends, instead of sitting on
the sidelines.

I'll add something from a Brit expatriot friend of mine who is
disgusted at how coddling to Muslim extremism his home country has
become. He said, "Great Britain used to rule the waves; now they wave
the rules." So sad, but true.

That goes *so* far back. The actual words are "Britannia used to rule
the waves; now they waive the rules".

"If I Were Britannia I'd Waive the Rules" was a song tile on a 1976
album by Budgie. A take-off, of course on "Rule, Britannia" written
in 1740 by Thomas Arne based on a poem by John Thomson.

When Britain first at Heav'n's command
Arose from out the azure main;
This was the charter of the land,
And guardian angels sang this strain;

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never will be slaves.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:09:02 -0600, "HEMI - Powered"
wrote:

Stephen Bishop added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

Hamas is not a terrorist organisation.

With just that one statement you've laid down your cards.

Are you saying, then, that Hamas is not responsible for the
constant rocket attacks into civilian areas of Israel?

Stephen, I'm not Jewish but then again I am hardly anti-Zionist. It
has LONG struck me as both unfair and extremely anti-Semetic that
the entire world is so against Jews and their right to a homeland.

Yes, Hamas IS a terrorist organization just like a significant
portion of the PLO was. It is also a militant group within a more
moderate government in Palestine and that controlling the Arab side
of Gaza. Since this is all true, what do you think the real problem
is here?

I don't like war, ANY war. There are SOME that are both necessary
and justified, such as WWII, and MANY which are neither, such as
Korea, Viet Nam, most likely Iraq, and MANY more minor incursions.
But, wrt Israel and the Palestians - not to mention many other Arab
countries in the Middle East - there has been a continual struggle
since UN Partitioning the year I was born in 1947. Talking about it
doesn't help, actually minor military action doesn't help much
either.

I give the Israelis a LOT of credit for taking the view that they
simply won't take agression or any other form of **** from ANYBODY
and will take decisive action to defend themselves from same. What
I do NOT understand is WHY the UN - presumably representing ALL
nations - continues to advocate peace keepers, cease fires, and
peace talks when what it TAKES is for the UN to do something about
the anti-Zionists.

Can't do that? I don't believe it for a minute. Don't want to do
that? I completely believe that. So, considering that the US and
it's major allies of convenience can't or won't take direct action
to help the Israelis despite MANY statements of support, I also do
NOT understand why WE just don't STFU and get out of the way.

I think we are on the same page. And I'm speaking as a veteran, one
who was fortunate enough to not actually being in a shooting war.
Nobody wants war, but the Israelis keep getting a bad deal just for
doing what they have to do to survive as a nation. I'm not Jewish,
either, but I greatly respect them for what they are constantly going
through over there and for the very difficult decisions they often
have to make.

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:41:35 +0000, Chris H
wrote:

In message , HEMI - Powered
writes
Stephen Bishop added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

Hamas is not a terrorist organisation.

With just that one statement you've laid down your cards.

Are you saying, then, that Hamas is not responsible for the
constant rocket attacks into civilian areas of Israel?

Stephen, I'm not Jewish but then again I am hardly anti-Zionist. It
has LONG struck me as both unfair and extremely anti-Semetic that
the entire world is so against Jews and their right to a homeland.

Why should a religious group take land from others?
Should the Catholics have a homeland?
Should the Moslems have a homeland?

1. They took land from nobody. It was given to them by the UN and
they have been in defensive wars ever since.

2. It isn't a religious issue as far as Israel is concerned. It's
ethnic. Israel is a secular democracy.


Yes, Hamas IS a terrorist organization just like a significant
portion of the PLO was.

Not at all Hamas is a legally elected and legitimate authority in Gaza.
It is defending it's people from the onslaught and slaughter of
civilians by Israel

Elected terrorists are still terrorists. You keep harping about
"slaughter of civilians" while ignoring the reality of what the
Palestinians have been trying to do to Israel for decades. Today it's
Hamas; yesterday it was the PLO. Their goal is to rid Palestine of
the Jews.

The only Jews they want living in that land are ones who live in
subjection to Islamic law as second class citizens.

I was in the military stationed in Greece when the PLO murdered dozens
of innocent civilans in the Athens airport in the 1970's. You can't
tell me that the Palestinians want a peaceful coexistence with Israel.
I was there during the Yom Kippur war. Trust me, I was in a position
to know who were the aggressors. You say the IDF is brutal. They
have to be, they are surrounded by brutal enemies.

Or do you perhaps have access to some documents from Hamas which state
that they disavow the actions of the PLO and they seek a true peace
with their Jewish neighbors? Do they condemn their own clerics when
they rant about the Jews drinking the blood of children and preaching
from parts of the Koran that refer to the Jews as pigs?



I don't like war, ANY war. There are SOME that are both necessary
and justified, such as WWII,
Yes though it could have been avoided.

and MANY which are neither, such as
Korea, Viet Nam, most likely Iraq, and MANY more minor incursions.

I agree.

But, wrt Israel and the Palestians - not to mention many other Arab
countries in the Middle East - there has been a continual struggle
since UN Partitioning the year I was born in 1947. Talking about it
doesn't help, actually minor military action doesn't help much
either.

The partitioning was a mistake. Israel should never have been formed.
Giving in to terrorists was a mistake and they should have been rooted
out not given land,

And that's your prejudice talking.


What
I do NOT understand is WHY the UN - presumably representing ALL
nations - continues to advocate peace keepers, cease fires, and
peace talks when what it TAKES is for the UN to do something about
the anti-Zionists.

The anti-zionists are not the problem. The problem is the Israeli
aggression from day one.

Sorry, from day one it was the Arabs who were the aggressors trying to
remove what they saw as the stain of a Jewish state in what they
considered to be holy Muslim land.


Can't do that? I don't believe it for a minute. Don't want to do
that? I completely believe that. So, considering that the US and
it's major allies of convenience can't or won't take direct action
to help the Israelis despite MANY statements of support, I also do
NOT understand why WE just don't STFU and get out of the way.

I agree and the US will do in 2009/10 if Israel continues it's
current course it will be sooner rather than latter

Don't think for a minute that the US won't get involved directly if it
comes to the point that the survival of Israel is at stake.

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:44:14 +0000, Chris H
wrote:

In message , Stephen Bishop
writes
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:57:50 +0000, Chris H
wrote:

In message , Stephen Bishop
writes
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:25:35 +0000, Chris H
wrote:
Nothing like as effective and the tens of thousands of strikes on
Palestinian civilians by the Israelis

As much as you seem to want to believe otherwise, Israel does not
deliberately target civilians. Period.

With lines line that no one will take anything you say seriously

You mean like your silly Waffen SS line that you keep repeating?

No others have said the same including many international agencies and I
note the Israeli cabinet have woken up to the fact that many of them are
now in line for international war crimes trials and when Bush goes the
US will not protect them

You have no evidence to support that but there is much evidence to the
contrary from many independent sources.
Several filmed by TV crews.

TV crews and "independent sources" have a habit of filming and
reporting only what they want you to see.

I see... as the US often claims ALL the worlds press ant media (except
Fox News ) are in a concerted Anti- Israeli conspiracy...

Interestingly no one else seems to think this.

Actually apart from the several documented and irrefutable incidents of
the IDF shooing at civilians (and specifically children) and clearly UN
targets the IDf does not really care one way or the other who is in the
area if they want to fire at a suspected target.

I would think that is only because the Hamas militants don't care who
gets in the way when they hide behind civilians. What do you expect
to happen when they launch rockets from schools and store weapons in
mosques? That Israel will just allow that to keep happening?

Now none of that have even had any proof or evidence to back it up.
However over the last 2 weeks *SEVERAL* separate and highly respected
international organisations have provided documentary and irrefutable
evidence that the IDF does use civilian human shields including woman
and children, has targeted civilians. (I have seen that myself) and
shelled medical and UN posts.


Incidentally I note the whole of the UN disagrees with you .... except
the US who also have no problem with shooting civilians.

That's a completely irrational and stupid statement.

It is factual and been proved many times.

Much like the Waffen SS did for the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto

No, nothing if the sort. The Nazis' goal was to rid the world of
Jews. Israel's purpose in bottling up Gaza is simply to keep as many
suicide bombers as possible behind locked doors.

CRAP. The Israelis can say what they like it is what they do that
counts. They are behaving like the Waffen SS

Hardly.


Just look at the comparisons to the Warsaw Ghetto.. Though youi will not
be able to do that as it require looking at reality.

SO Genocide is OK when you steal land and kill civilians.

You're making the statement that genocide is fact when it is nonsense.

Not according to the UN, Red Cross (not the Red Crescent who you would
say are biased) and Amnesty international

SO you don't expect the Palestinians to protect themselves as best they
can from the IDF mimicking the Waffen SS?

Lobbing a constant barrage of rockets at civilian population centers
has nothing to do with self protection.

Quite so. So Israel should stop and the Hamas would not need to defend
itself wit the few rockets it has,.
Hamas was shooting those rockets long before the IDF began their
military action in Gaza.

This is not true... I suggest you start again with the Basics. Hamas is
a relatively new organisation that grew out of one of the other IDF
killing sprees.

They have been targeting civilian areas,
not Israeli military targets. You're a fool if you actually believe
they are "defending themselves" by shooting rockets into populated
civilian areas.

Well for every rocket Hamas fires the IDF fires 100 Precision guided
munitions (which explains why for 13 dead Israelis there are over 400
Palestinian women and children dead. )

Hamas are firing in self defence against Israeli aggression


I wonder how the "arab street" would react if Israel were launching
thousands of low-tech missiles on an ongoing basis into Gaza. Ah, I
see.
Actually they launch hundreds of thousands of hi-tech missiles into
Gaza... about 100 for every one the Palestinians fire in response.
Please be specific, how would you respond if your neighbor were
constantly shooting bullets at your house and constantly denied your
right to exist and nobody else would deal with the situation?

I would respond exactly as Hamas has done with the weapons at hand.
Clearly Isreal has no problem with genocide and killing civilians so I
would not see any problem with firing back in similar manner. Which is
what Hamas is doing as it's only defence against genocide.

Except it is Israel who has been doing the responding to the constant
barrage of rockets, not the other way around.

Not at all the IDF was murdering civilians long before Hamas turned up


It is the IDF and Israelis who are murdering civilians.

That's the propaganda. You keep swallowing it.


Sorry... As a military person who has been to the ME and members of my
family (who are all WASP) who have been to Israel I have seen the
reality. Also the film from independent news teams does not lie or is
EVERY non-Israeli /US in the world that reports from Isreal lying and in
a conspiracy?


Yes. There are people with axes to grind all over.

The bottom line is that there will be no peace until the Muslims in
that part of the world grant Israel the right to exist and stop the
random terrorist attacks against civilians. Egypt and Israel
negotiated peace and it has held. The other countries involved need
to follow suit and then the Palestinian question can be addressed in a
peaceful way.

No the other hand as Israel is in breach of more UN resolutions and most
of its leaders are likely to be on war crimes trials and it has
murdered many thousands of civilians and Israel has from day one
committed war crimes lets remove Israel and ship them to somewhere like
Arizona where they and the US can continue their un-holy alliance.


Israel lost long ago any moral high ground or support from the rest of
the world though their own actions. ,


Chris, nobody is going to believe you as long as you continue to skew
your facts with obvious propaganda codewords like "murdering
civilians," "genocide," "war crimes," "Israeli aggression," and the
ridiculous statement that firing rockets at civilians is an act of
self-defense. Pure propaganda and pure rubbish. I'm surprised you
haven't referred to Israel as the "Zionist Entity" since you have said
that they have no right to live there.

The fact is that neither side is innocent. If Israel has been accused
of overreacting, it is because they have been taking these kinds of
attacks and threats to their survival for decades. You'd do the same
thing if all of your neighbors on your street said you have no right
to live and took potshots at you every time you walked out your door.

HEMI - Powered wrote:
Chris H added these comments in the current discussion du jour ...

Hamas is not a terrorist organisation.

With just that one statement you've laid down your cards.

It is a properly elected authority in Gaza. Their election is
more solid than the last one GWB engineered.

What difference does it make if Hamas is or is not a properly
elected authority? First, YOUR country has NO business criticizing
MY country in this. Fix it yourselves if you think you can.

MY taxes pay Israel to murder innocent people.

What IS important is that elected or not, Hamas most clearly is a
terrorist/militant group that is bent on Israel's destruction.

Just as Likud is a terrorist/militant group that is bent on the
annexation of the West Bank after all of the natives have been driven
out.

--
Ray Fischer

Stephen Bishop wrote:
Chris H
HEMI - Powered
Chris H added these comments in the current discussion du jour ...

Hamas is not a terrorist organisation.

With just that one statement you've laid down your cards.

It is a properly elected authority in Gaza. Their election is
more solid than the last one GWB engineered.

What difference does it make if Hamas is or is not a properly
elected authority?

Israel is attacking a legally elected government in it's own territory,.
Sounds like an act of war... no wonder they are fighting back

Sorry, that doesn't hold waterf Hamas fired first.

That's an outright lie. In addition to killing people in Gaza during
the supposed cease fire, Israel has also waged war against the people
of Gaza by starving them and preventing people from travelling freely.

--
Ray Fischer

HEMI - Powered wrote:
Stephen Bishop added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

Hamas is not a terrorist organisation.

With just that one statement you've laid down your cards.

Are you saying, then, that Hamas is not responsible for the
constant rocket attacks into civilian areas of Israel?

Stephen, I'm not Jewish but then again I am hardly anti-Zionist. It
has LONG struck me as both unfair and extremely anti-Semetic that
the entire world is so against Jews and their right to a homeland.

Looks like the world is against Arabs and THEIR rights. You certainly
are.

Yes, Hamas IS a terrorist organization just like a significant
portion of the PLO was.

Just like a significant number of Israelis are.

--
Ray Fischer

Stephen Bishop wrote:
(Ray Fischer) wrote:
Stephen Bishop wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:25:35 +0000, Chris H
wrote:

In message
,
writes
On Jan 8, 4:50*pm, wrote:
Palestinians Under Attack

ÊÚÑÖ ÇáÔÚÈ ÇáÝáÓØíäí Ýí ÛÒå áÙáã ÑåíÈ Úáì ÇíÏí ÇáÞæÇÊ ÇáÇÓÑÇÆíáíå

Palestinians are exposed for horrible unfairness at the hands of
Israeli forces.

LOL!!

So how are those thousands of rocket attacks aimed at Israeli
civilians working out?

Nothing like as effective and the tens of thousands of strikes on
Palestinian civilians by the Israelis

As much as you seem to want to believe otherwise, Israel does not
deliberately target civilians. Period.

Just like dropping a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima didn't deliberately
target civilians.

Israel didn't do that.

They've limited themselves to 1000 pound bombs and rockets and tank
shells fired where civilians are located.

It sounds like you are one of those anti-semitic bigots who believes

Since I never criticized Jews it's obvious that you're just some
bigoted ASSHOLE hiding behind his religion in order to justify
murdering civilians.

You're disgusting.

--
Ray Fischer

In message , Stephen Bishop
writes
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:31:43 +0000, Chris H
wrote:

In message , HEMI - Powered
writes
Chris H added these comments in the current discussion du jour ...

Hamas is not a terrorist organisation.

With just that one statement you've laid down your cards.

It is a properly elected authority in Gaza. Their election is
more solid than the last one GWB engineered.

What difference does it make if Hamas is or is not a properly
elected authority?

Israel is attacking a legally elected government in it's own territory,.
Sounds like an act of war... no wonder they are fighting back

Sorry, that doesn't hold water. Hamas fired first. Israel showed
remarkable retraint until "enough is enough."


When did Hamas come into being? Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh
Ahmed Yassin because they were so ****ed off with Isreal murdering
civilians.

Hamas was created to defend the Palestinians from the IDF continually
killing women and children as it normally does. Some 400 women and
children (of the 90 civilians) in the last 15 days.

Hamas have killed 13 Israelis in defence.



--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In message , Stephen Bishop
writes
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:31:43 +0000, Chris H
wrote:

Really come over to uk.current-event.terrorisum where I have had a 90%
success rate on this very subject usually being able to accurately
predict trends up to 3 years in advance.

I do have military experience (and in the ME) speak Fasi and still have
many connections

If you look at our company events list
http://www.phaedsys.com/news/index.html

you will see that we are involved in the military sector and will be at
http://www.counterterrorexpo.com/

next month...

Your experience is?

Probably not with the same bias as yours.

In other words you don't have any relevant experience.




\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/