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Is Your Browser Color Managed?



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 22nd 17, 04:36 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Is Your Browser Color Managed?

On Sun, 21 May 2017 20:43:10 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

The article author suggests recommending to Windows
users that they install Safari before viewing your photos.
Good luck with that, as the saying goes. It's roughly
analogous to telling your friend what stove to use.


That advice is many years out of date. My web browser (Firefox) is
color managed, my screens have been color calibrated for nearly 10
years and Windows has had one form of color management or another
since 1995.


what form was it in 1995?
wikipedia says 1997, 4 years after macos did.


I was relying on
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms969981.aspx which says:

"Microsoft Corporation's first implementation of color management
support was released in the Microsoft® Windows® 95 operating system
as Integrated Color Management (ICM) 1.0, an API to which
third-party applications can write. This version of ICM was
designed to address the needs of applications that work with RGB,
to work seamlessly for the end user, and to enable simple support
from application developers."

Windows 95 was of course released on Aug 24 1995.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_management#Operating_system_level
Apple's classic Mac OS and macOS operating systems have provided
OS-level color management APIs since 1993, through ColorSync.

Since 1997 color management in Windows is available through an ICC
color management system (ICM).

As of 2005, most web browsers ignored color profiles. Notable
exceptions were Safari, starting with version 2.0, and Firefox
starting with version 3. Although disabled by default in Firefox 3.0,
ICC v2 and ICC v4 color management could be enable by using an
add-on or setting a configuration option.

As of 2012, notable browser support for color management is:
€ Firefox: from version 3.5 enabled by default for ICC v2 tagged
images, version 8.0 has ICC v4 profiles support, but it needs
to be activated manually.
€ Internet Explorer: version 9 is the first Microsoft browser to
partly support ICC profiles, but it does not render images correctly
according to the Windows ICC settings (it only converts non-sRGB
images to the sRGB profile) and therefore provides no real color
management at all.
€ Google Chrome: uses the system provided ICC v2 and v4 support on
macOS, and from version 22 supports ICC v2 profiles by default on
other platforms.
€ Safari: has support starting with version 2.0.
€ Opera: has support since 12.10 for ICC v4.
€ Pale Moon supported ICC v2 from its first release, and v4 since
Pale Moon 20.2 (2013).

looks like mayayana's pet browser is colour managed and he doesn't even
know it.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #22  
Old May 25th 17, 02:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,514
Default Is Your Browser Color Managed?

"Eric Stevens" wrote

| In
| the course of the article, the author demonstrates
| how even different browsers, given the same
| conditions (same OS, color management,
| monitor, etc) can actually render different hues
| for the exact same color value.
|
| Which is why images should contain color profiles if you want accurate
| reproduction of colours.
|

I'll try one more time to clarify this because it's
an important point. Even if you don't get it, some
people will.

As I said, the article is pointing
out that *even with color management and use of
profiles* there will be differences in display between
browsers. He even shows a sample image, illustrating
his main point, that you just can't control what other
people see.

From the description below that image:

"Note that even the browsers that recognize nonstandard color profiles don't
all implement the monitor color profile the same way, with each successive
browser bringing up the black levels (and IE9 really pumps the
saturation!)."

And browsers are just one factor.
You're applying the logic of calibrating hardware
to the vagaries of software. Yes, you can use
color management to coordinate your printer with
your monitor. But you cannot, no matter how hard
you try, control what other people see when they
view your photo.

Even if you insisted that all recipients calibrate
their hardware before they can view your images,
which obviously wouldn't be realistic, you still can't
be sure of what they'll see. (And that, of course, still
doesn't take into account variations in color perception
between people. I'm, only pointing out software
differences here, which is a relatively small part of
the equation.)

| Firefox is fully color managed and SD will be able to confirm whether
| or not he included a color profile with his picture. And don't forget
| you have Dropbox in between.

That wasn't the point of that example. I was
pointing out that the same image was showing
differently in 2 different programs on the same
computer. Dropbox is not "in between". I viewed
the Dropbox-derived image in Firefox and then
right-click-saved it to disk to view it in IrfanView.
Neither image came directly from SD. They're the
same file.
They looked different, and it wasn't a color issue.
I can't explain it. The only thing I can think of is
that maybe Firefox is using its own graphics libraries
and, for some reason, adjusting display. Normally
software would be sending image pixel values to
the screen using the Windows GDI library. There
shouldn't be any difference. A pixel is a pixel.

Maybe it's me, but anyone on Windows can test
this easily enough. You could download his
DSF4740-E.jpg and see what you think. Maybe
they'll look exactly the same to you. But the
saturation and sharpness clearly look different
to me. You're not curious to know whether different
software might convey such differences? (Probably
having nothing to do with color management.)

I think part of the issue here is that people who
do work on computers would like to think that digital
work can be made relatively immutable. It just
doesn't work that way. Office people like to think
that PDFs and DOCs are immutable vehicles for
copyrighted material. They're not. Photographers
would like to think that JPGs are relatively immutable
vehicles for their photos. They're not. That's just
how the medium works. The JPG graphic image data
is just a grid of numeric pixel values. Graphic editing
is just the most obvious example of how mutable the
image is.

Of course, printed media are not so immutable as
they seem, either. Your photo will look different
under glass than without; different under halogen
light than under daylight; different to each person;
different depending on the direction light is coming
from; different due to the colors used for the mat
and frame. We imagine a physical print is immutable
because it's a physical object. But even our color
perception is just an approximation. We don't have
cones for perceiving yellow, for example. Which is
why it's so hard to get a pure yellow that doesn't
tip toward green or red. Because yellow itself is
a relationship between the greens and reds that
our eye registers. And probably everyone has had
the experience of viewing a flag and then staring
at a white wall to see a flag in opposing colors.
Those colors are not there. They exist only as a
quirk of our physiology.


  #23  
Old May 25th 17, 11:53 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Is Your Browser Color Managed?

On Thu, 25 May 2017 09:17:52 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

"Eric Stevens" wrote

| In
| the course of the article, the author demonstrates
| how even different browsers, given the same
| conditions (same OS, color management,
| monitor, etc) can actually render different hues
| for the exact same color value.
|
| Which is why images should contain color profiles if you want accurate
| reproduction of colours.
|

I'll try one more time to clarify this because it's
an important point. Even if you don't get it, some
people will.

As I said, the article is pointing
out that *even with color management and use of
profiles* there will be differences in display between
browsers. He even shows a sample image, illustrating
his main point, that you just can't control what other
people see.

From the description below that image:

"Note that even the browsers that recognize nonstandard color profiles don't
all implement the monitor color profile the same way, with each successive
browser bringing up the black levels (and IE9 really pumps the
saturation!)."

And browsers are just one factor.
You're applying the logic of calibrating hardware
to the vagaries of software. Yes, you can use
color management to coordinate your printer with
your monitor. But you cannot, no matter how hard
you try, control what other people see when they
view your photo.

Even if you insisted that all recipients calibrate
their hardware before they can view your images,
which obviously wouldn't be realistic, you still can't
be sure of what they'll see. (And that, of course, still
doesn't take into account variations in color perception
between people. I'm, only pointing out software
differences here, which is a relatively small part of
the equation.)

| Firefox is fully color managed and SD will be able to confirm whether
| or not he included a color profile with his picture. And don't forget
| you have Dropbox in between.

That wasn't the point of that example. I was
pointing out that the same image was showing
differently in 2 different programs on the same
computer. Dropbox is not "in between". I viewed
the Dropbox-derived image in Firefox and then
right-click-saved it to disk to view it in IrfanView.
Neither image came directly from SD. They're the
same file.
They looked different, and it wasn't a color issue.
I can't explain it. The only thing I can think of is
that maybe Firefox is using its own graphics libraries
and, for some reason, adjusting display. Normally
software would be sending image pixel values to
the screen using the Windows GDI library. There
shouldn't be any difference. A pixel is a pixel.


Is your computer screen calibrated?

Do you have the necessary plugins?

Maybe it's me, but anyone on Windows can test
this easily enough. You could download his
DSF4740-E.jpg and see what you think.


I would like to but I can't find the original link.

Maybe
they'll look exactly the same to you. But the
saturation and sharpness clearly look different
to me. You're not curious to know whether different
software might convey such differences? (Probably
having nothing to do with color management.)

I think part of the issue here is that people who
do work on computers would like to think that digital
work can be made relatively immutable. It just
doesn't work that way. Office people like to think
that PDFs and DOCs are immutable vehicles for
copyrighted material. They're not. Photographers
would like to think that JPGs are relatively immutable
vehicles for their photos. They're not. That's just
how the medium works. The JPG graphic image data
is just a grid of numeric pixel values. Graphic editing
is just the most obvious example of how mutable the
image is.

Of course, printed media are not so immutable as
they seem, either. Your photo will look different
under glass than without; different under halogen
light than under daylight; different to each person;
different depending on the direction light is coming
from; different due to the colors used for the mat
and frame. We imagine a physical print is immutable
because it's a physical object. But even our color
perception is just an approximation. We don't have
cones for perceiving yellow, for example. Which is
why it's so hard to get a pure yellow that doesn't
tip toward green or red. Because yellow itself is
a relationship between the greens and reds that
our eye registers. And probably everyone has had
the experience of viewing a flag and then staring
at a white wall to see a flag in opposing colors.
Those colors are not there. They exist only as a
quirk of our physiology.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #24  
Old May 26th 17, 01:06 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,487
Default Is Your Browser Color Managed?

On 2017-05-25 22:53:06 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

On Thu, 25 May 2017 09:17:52 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

"Eric Stevens" wrote

| In
| the course of the article, the author demonstrates
| how even different browsers, given the same
| conditions (same OS, color management,
| monitor, etc) can actually render different hues
| for the exact same color value.
|
| Which is why images should contain color profiles if you want accurate
| reproduction of colours.
|

I'll try one more time to clarify this because it's
an important point. Even if you don't get it, some
people will.

As I said, the article is pointing
out that *even with color management and use of
profiles* there will be differences in display between
browsers. He even shows a sample image, illustrating
his main point, that you just can't control what other
people see.

From the description below that image:

"Note that even the browsers that recognize nonstandard color profiles don't
all implement the monitor color profile the same way, with each successive
browser bringing up the black levels (and IE9 really pumps the
saturation!)."

And browsers are just one factor.
You're applying the logic of calibrating hardware
to the vagaries of software. Yes, you can use
color management to coordinate your printer with
your monitor. But you cannot, no matter how hard
you try, control what other people see when they
view your photo.

Even if you insisted that all recipients calibrate
their hardware before they can view your images,
which obviously wouldn't be realistic, you still can't
be sure of what they'll see. (And that, of course, still
doesn't take into account variations in color perception
between people. I'm, only pointing out software
differences here, which is a relatively small part of
the equation.)

| Firefox is fully color managed and SD will be able to confirm whether
| or not he included a color profile with his picture. And don't forget
| you have Dropbox in between.

That wasn't the point of that example. I was
pointing out that the same image was showing
differently in 2 different programs on the same
computer. Dropbox is not "in between". I viewed
the Dropbox-derived image in Firefox and then
right-click-saved it to disk to view it in IrfanView.
Neither image came directly from SD. They're the
same file.
They looked different, and it wasn't a color issue.
I can't explain it. The only thing I can think of is
that maybe Firefox is using its own graphics libraries
and, for some reason, adjusting display. Normally
software would be sending image pixel values to
the screen using the Windows GDI library. There
shouldn't be any difference. A pixel is a pixel.


Is your computer screen calibrated?

Do you have the necessary plugins?

Maybe it's me, but anyone on Windows can test
this easily enough. You could download his
DSF4740-E.jpg and see what you think.


I would like to but I can't find the original link.


Since that is my JPEG, I am happy to oblige;
https://www.dropbox.com/s/448rl27c57zsiye/DSF4740-E.jpg

Maybe
they'll look exactly the same to you. But the
saturation and sharpness clearly look different
to me. You're not curious to know whether different
software might convey such differences? (Probably
having nothing to do with color management.)


--
Regards,

Savageduck

  #25  
Old May 26th 17, 01:07 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Is Your Browser Color Managed?

In article , Mayayana
wrote:

As I said, the article is pointing
out that *even with color management and use of
profiles* there will be differences in display between
browsers. He even shows a sample image, illustrating
his main point, that you just can't control what other
people see.


only if the browsers aren't colour managed.




And browsers are just one factor.
You're applying the logic of calibrating hardware
to the vagaries of software.


browsers are software. it could be an image viewer, photo editor or
some other app. doesn't matter.

Yes, you can use
color management to coordinate your printer with
your monitor.


you can, but that's a bad idea and not how it should be done.

it also indicates that you don't understand colour management.

But you cannot, no matter how hard
you try, control what other people see when they
view your photo.


while you can't 'control' anything (nor was that ever a goal), you
absolutely can ensure that an image is visually consistent across
multiple devices.

Even if you insisted that all recipients calibrate
their hardware before they can view your images,
which obviously wouldn't be realistic, you still can't
be sure of what they'll see.


wrong.

(And that, of course, still
doesn't take into account variations in color perception
between people. I'm, only pointing out software
differences here, which is a relatively small part of
the equation.)


people perceive colours in the same way.

if someone says they see bright red, another person will also see
bright red, not azure, lemon, russet or grey.



They looked different, and it wasn't a color issue.
I can't explain it. The only thing I can think of is
that maybe Firefox is using its own graphics libraries
and, for some reason, adjusting display. Normally
software would be sending image pixel values to
the screen using the Windows GDI library. There
shouldn't be any difference. A pixel is a pixel.


one app is colour managed and the other isn't. simple as that.

add in your lack of understanding of colour management and you end up
with a complete mess.

Maybe it's me,


it is.

but anyone on Windows can test
this easily enough. You could download his
DSF4740-E.jpg and see what you think. Maybe
they'll look exactly the same to you. But the
saturation and sharpness clearly look different
to me. You're not curious to know whether different
software might convey such differences? (Probably
having nothing to do with color management.)


a difference in sharpness is due to a ****ty resizing algorithm in one
(possibly both) of the apps.

saturation is a colour management issue.
  #26  
Old May 26th 17, 02:11 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,161
Default Is Your Browser Color Managed?

On 5/25/2017 8:07 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Mayayana
wrote:

As I said, the article is pointing
out that *even with color management and use of
profiles* there will be differences in display between
browsers. He even shows a sample image, illustrating
his main point, that you just can't control what other
people see.


only if the browsers aren't colour managed.




And browsers are just one factor.
You're applying the logic of calibrating hardware
to the vagaries of software.


browsers are software. it could be an image viewer, photo editor or
some other app. doesn't matter.

Yes, you can use
color management to coordinate your printer with
your monitor.


you can, but that's a bad idea and not how it should be done.

it also indicates that you don't understand colour management.

But you cannot, no matter how hard
you try, control what other people see when they
view your photo.


while you can't 'control' anything (nor was that ever a goal), you
absolutely can ensure that an image is visually consistent across
multiple devices.


True


Even if you insisted that all recipients calibrate
their hardware before they can view your images,
which obviously wouldn't be realistic, you still can't
be sure of what they'll see.


wrong.


See below


(And that, of course, still
doesn't take into account variations in color perception
between people. I'm, only pointing out software
differences here, which is a relatively small part of
the equation.)


people perceive colours in the same way.

if someone says they see bright red, another person will also see
bright red, not azure, lemon, russet or grey.


Individual perceptions of color may vary from one individual to another,
just as taste, and hearing do.
http://www.livescience.com/21275-color-red-blue-scientists.html





They looked different, and it wasn't a color issue.
I can't explain it. The only thing I can think of is
that maybe Firefox is using its own graphics libraries
and, for some reason, adjusting display. Normally
software would be sending image pixel values to
the screen using the Windows GDI library. There
shouldn't be any difference. A pixel is a pixel.


one app is colour managed and the other isn't. simple as that.

add in your lack of understanding of colour management and you end up
with a complete mess.

Maybe it's me,


it is.

but anyone on Windows can test
this easily enough. You could download his
DSF4740-E.jpg and see what you think. Maybe
they'll look exactly the same to you. But the
saturation and sharpness clearly look different
to me. You're not curious to know whether different
software might convey such differences? (Probably
having nothing to do with color management.)


a difference in sharpness is due to a ****ty resizing algorithm in one
(possibly both) of the apps.

saturation is a colour management issue.



--
PeterN
  #27  
Old May 26th 17, 02:28 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Is Your Browser Color Managed?

In article , PeterN
wrote:


(And that, of course, still
doesn't take into account variations in color perception
between people. I'm, only pointing out software
differences here, which is a relatively small part of
the equation.)


people perceive colours in the same way.

if someone says they see bright red, another person will also see
bright red, not azure, lemon, russet or grey.


Individual perceptions of color may vary from one individual to another,
just as taste, and hearing do.


nope. this was well established long ago not to be true.

http://www.livescience.com/21275-color-red-blue-scientists.html


In work published in the journal Nature in 2009, Neitz and several
colleagues injected a virus into the monkeys' eyes that randomly
infected some of their green-sensitive cone cells

duh. they need a study to figure out that infecting some of the cells
in an eye will affect perception?

the fact remains that people with normal vision see colours the same.
  #28  
Old May 26th 17, 02:44 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,514
Default Is Your Browser Color Managed?

"nospam" wrote

| As I said, the article is pointing
| out that *even with color management and use of
| profiles* there will be differences in display between
| browsers. He even shows a sample image, illustrating
| his main point, that you just can't control what other
| people see.
|
| only if the browsers aren't colour managed.
|

You just snipped the quote making exactly the
opposite point. Read the article and look at the
comparison pictures. 3 yellow cars, all different
hues. 3 different color-managing browsers. Why
is this simple point so hard to grasp?


  #29  
Old May 26th 17, 02:53 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,514
Default Is Your Browser Color Managed?

"PeterN" wrote

| Individual perceptions of color may vary from one individual to another,
| just as taste, and hearing do.
| http://www.livescience.com/21275-color-red-blue-scientists.html
|

That's one of several uncontrollable factors that
I was trying to point out to Eric. I used to have a
friend who took up painting and was surprisingly
good at it. He was doing still life. I said I though his
work was very good, but didn't understand why his
pears were purple and various other things had been
painted the wrong colors. It turned out he was color
blind and had never known it. Yet his paintings were
beautifully done, looking very realistic. He just wasn't
painting the colors that other people saw. It was
intriguing, but he was embarassed by the whole thing
and stopped painting, so I never had a chance to
figure out how he was painting so right and so wrong
at the same time.
Up until that point, it never would have occurred
to me, if I said something like, "Isn't that a beautiful
coral?", that he was actually seeing a very different
color. And what does that mean? Does he see something
equally exquisite but more like frog green? I don't know.
Where would be the objective vantage point to decide?
Is green to him the same as green to me? Or does it
"feel" like coral?



  #30  
Old May 26th 17, 02:56 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Is Your Browser Color Managed?

In article , Mayayana
wrote:


| As I said, the article is pointing
| out that *even with color management and use of
| profiles* there will be differences in display between
| browsers. He even shows a sample image, illustrating
| his main point, that you just can't control what other
| people see.
|
| only if the browsers aren't colour managed.
|

You just snipped the quote making exactly the
opposite point. Read the article and look at the
comparison pictures. 3 yellow cars, all different
hues. 3 different color-managing browsers. Why
is this simple point so hard to grasp?


looks like *you* need to reread it, and also read a book or two on
colour management.

start with real world colour management:
http://colorremedies.com/realworldcolor/
 




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