Dpreview wants to cater to the simple people

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:52:48 -0600, "HEMI-Powered" wrote
in :

Now to your real question: yes, IF the flash is popped up or if I
have my external mounted and it is "On", then, yes, the camera
and flash will adjust to changing light but neither will come on
by themselves. However, there a "not nice" about programmed auto
and flash in that it locks the shutter at 1/60 and the lens wide-
open aperture and adjusts the length and power of the flash pulse
to make the exposure. I can live with the 1/60 shutter but the
wide open aperture makes getting decent DOF problematical so it
is highly annoying. I CAN select aperture priority to get the DOF
but I have to significantly up the ISO as it wants to do the base
exposure for the background and not what the flash is hitting in
that mode.

It's hard to see how it could do that automatically without a
full-strength pre-flash, which seems impractical to me. Thus I think
you'll have to use Manual mode, getting the exposure right by trial and
error.
--
Best regards,
John
[Please Note: Ads belong *only* in rec.photo.marketplace.digital, as per
http://bobatkins.photo.net/info/charter.htm http://rpdfaq.50megs.com/]

On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:45:33 -0500, "bowzer" wrote:


"Stephen Bishop" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:36:02 -0500, "bowzer" wrote:

The reason is that is what Canon chose for the 5D. I don't know if
they fixed that in the MkII or not.

Right.... But why? I could shop around all day, and this wouldnt' change.
All digital cameras have a horrible interface, IMO.


OTOH, Nikon is much better with those kinds of details. You can set
MLU on the D200 with a simple turn of a dial. In fact, there is
rarely any need to go to the menus at all.

Which is how it should be. But I chose the IQ of the 5D and have learned to
live with the menu system.

So what is that P&S camera with manual zoom and focus that you like?
Make/model? \

I haven't used a p&s for several years, so I wouldn't be the right
person to ask that question.

On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:45:33 -0500, "bowzer" wrote:


"Stephen Bishop" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:36:02 -0500, "bowzer" wrote:

The reason is that is what Canon chose for the 5D. I don't know if
they fixed that in the MkII or not.

Right.... But why? I could shop around all day, and this wouldnt' change.
All digital cameras have a horrible interface, IMO.


OTOH, Nikon is much better with those kinds of details. You can set
MLU on the D200 with a simple turn of a dial. In fact, there is
rarely any need to go to the menus at all.

Which is how it should be. But I chose the IQ of the 5D and have learned to
live with the menu system.

Well, the D300 gives the 5D some healthy competition with regard to
IQ, and the D700 is better; both have far superior interfaces than
Canons, IMO. Now that the 5D2 is out, Canon upped the ante a wee
bit, but Nikon will be responding with a new version of the D700
before too long. I switched from Canon to Nikon when the D200
first came out and I never looked back.



So what is that P&S camera with manual zoom and focus that you like?
Make/model?

John Navas added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

Now to your real question: yes, IF the flash is popped up or
if I have my external mounted and it is "On", then, yes, the
camera and flash will adjust to changing light but neither
will come on by themselves. However, there a "not nice" about
programmed auto and flash in that it locks the shutter at 1/60
and the lens wide- open aperture and adjusts the length and
power of the flash pulse to make the exposure. I can live with
the 1/60 shutter but the wide open aperture makes getting
decent DOF problematical so it is highly annoying. I CAN
select aperture priority to get the DOF but I have to
significantly up the ISO as it wants to do the base exposure
for the background and not what the flash is hitting in that
mode.

It's hard to see how it could do that automatically without a
full-strength pre-flash, which seems impractical to me. Thus
I think you'll have to use Manual mode, getting the exposure
right by trial and error.

It's hard for you to see how the flash could pop up
automatically? My first two digitals, a Fuji 4900 and Nikon 5700,
both EVFs, automatically popped up the flash if the AE system
detected not enough light during a normal half-shutter focus and
exposure lock. As for full-strength pre-flash, it just ain't so.
Both my Canon Rebels fire only a very small power pre-flash when
pressing the button to tell it to do a flash AE lock. This is
true when using the pop up flash or my Canon 430EX external
flash. In fact, the ONLY time I have ever seen either the built-
in flash or the external fire at full power is when they are set
to Manual, which I use only very rarely.

As I said, I almost always use Programmed Auto for the camera
which operates a flash as I describe above. It IS possible to use
Aperture priority, it's just that I've never been successful at
figuring out the combination of control settings, ISO, etc. to
make it work reliably. And, getting full Manual to work reliably
has it's own problems, such as the absolute need to be rather
accurate about the distance you program into the flash system via
manual altering of shutter and/or aperture. Possible, but
difficult to use in a casual fashion as many people do since
photography is a hobby for them, and not a job.

--
HP, aka Jerry

"How do you have patience for people who claim they love America,
but clearly can't stand Americans? – Sydney Ellen Wade to
President Andrew Shepherd in the movie "The American President

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:40:13 -0600, "HEMI-Powered" wrote:

John Navas added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

Now to your real question: yes, IF the flash is popped up or
if I have my external mounted and it is "On", then, yes, the
camera and flash will adjust to changing light but neither
will come on by themselves. However, there a "not nice" about
programmed auto and flash in that it locks the shutter at 1/60
and the lens wide- open aperture and adjusts the length and
power of the flash pulse to make the exposure. I can live with
the 1/60 shutter but the wide open aperture makes getting
decent DOF problematical so it is highly annoying. I CAN
select aperture priority to get the DOF but I have to
significantly up the ISO as it wants to do the base exposure
for the background and not what the flash is hitting in that
mode.

It's hard to see how it could do that automatically without a
full-strength pre-flash, which seems impractical to me. Thus
I think you'll have to use Manual mode, getting the exposure
right by trial and error.

It's hard for you to see how the flash could pop up
automatically? My first two digitals, a Fuji 4900 and Nikon 5700,
both EVFs, automatically popped up the flash if the AE system
detected not enough light during a normal half-shutter focus and
exposure lock.

I find that more annoying than how the Canon Powershots handle it. On one or two
of my earlier cameras, if I forgot to set an option with a button press then the
flash would pop up to warn me, as well as the minor clattering it would cause
startling some wildlife I was trying to photograph. On the Canon Powershots you
have to manually (and nice and quietly) lift the small flash unit to turn flash
on or off. I find that much more convenient and less troublesome. Rare is the
time flash is needed, if you know what you are doing. Having some camera decide
for me when it wants to suggest using flash is about as meddlesome as it can
get. Put a small indicator in the viewfinder if you want, one that I can turn
off if it gets annoying. But don't go and slap some fool flash up in mid-air
just before taking the shot because some idiot programmer thought that would be
helpful. When I use a camera like that I feel like it's turning itself into a
jack-in-the-box toy or something.



As for full-strength pre-flash, it just ain't so.
Both my Canon Rebels fire only a very small power pre-flash when
pressing the button to tell it to do a flash AE lock. This is
true when using the pop up flash or my Canon 430EX external
flash. In fact, the ONLY time I have ever seen either the built-
in flash or the external fire at full power is when they are set
to Manual, which I use only very rarely.

As I said, I almost always use Programmed Auto for the camera
which operates a flash as I describe above. It IS possible to use
Aperture priority, it's just that I've never been successful at
figuring out the combination of control settings, ISO, etc. to
make it work reliably. And, getting full Manual to work reliably
has it's own problems, such as the absolute need to be rather
accurate about the distance you program into the flash system via
manual altering of shutter and/or aperture. Possible, but
difficult to use in a casual fashion as many people do since
photography is a hobby for them, and not a job.

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:40:13 -0600, "HEMI-Powered" wrote
in :

John Navas added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

Now to your real question: yes, IF the flash is popped up or
if I have my external mounted and it is "On", then, yes, the
camera and flash will adjust to changing light but neither
will come on by themselves. However, there a "not nice" about
programmed auto and flash in that it locks the shutter at 1/60
and the lens wide- open aperture and adjusts the length and
power of the flash pulse to make the exposure. I can live with
the 1/60 shutter but the wide open aperture makes getting
decent DOF problematical so it is highly annoying. I CAN
select aperture priority to get the DOF but I have to
significantly up the ISO as it wants to do the base exposure
for the background and not what the flash is hitting in that
mode.

It's hard to see how it could do that automatically without a
full-strength pre-flash, which seems impractical to me. Thus
I think you'll have to use Manual mode, getting the exposure
right by trial and error.

It's hard for you to see how the flash could pop up
automatically?

No -- not what I said if you read the entire paragraph carefully -- it's
hard to see how the camera could know in advance what aperture it could
use, which is why it sets the maximum aperture to have the greatest
possible flash range. Flash effectiveness can only be determined with
an actual flash.

As for full-strength pre-flash, it just ain't so.
Both my Canon Rebels fire only a very small power pre-flash when
pressing the button to tell it to do a flash AE lock.

They can't tell from that how effective full power will be. Pre-flash
is normally for focus and/or red-eye reduction.
--
Best regards,
John
[Please Note: Ads belong *only* in rec.photo.marketplace.digital, as per
http://bobatkins.photo.net/info/charter.htm http://rpdfaq.50megs.com/]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:18:30 -0600, Yves Jammesen
wrote in
:

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:40:13 -0600, "HEMI-Powered" wrote:

It's hard for you to see how the flash could pop up
automatically? My first two digitals, a Fuji 4900 and Nikon 5700,
both EVFs, automatically popped up the flash if the AE system
detected not enough light during a normal half-shutter focus and
exposure lock.

I find that more annoying than how the Canon Powershots handle it. On one or two
of my earlier cameras, if I forgot to set an option with a button press then the
flash would pop up to warn me, as well as the minor clattering it would cause
startling some wildlife I was trying to photograph. ...

Agreed -- I also find that annoying and nannyish -- when I want flash
I'll pop it up.
--
Best regards,
John
[Please Note: Ads belong *only* in rec.photo.marketplace.digital, as per
http://bobatkins.photo.net/info/charter.htm http://rpdfaq.50megs.com/]

"Stephen Bishop" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:45:33 -0500, "bowzer" wrote:


"Stephen Bishop" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:36:02 -0500, "bowzer" wrote:

The reason is that is what Canon chose for the 5D. I don't know if
they fixed that in the MkII or not.

Right.... But why? I could shop around all day, and this wouldnt'
change.
All digital cameras have a horrible interface, IMO.


OTOH, Nikon is much better with those kinds of details. You can set
MLU on the D200 with a simple turn of a dial. In fact, there is
rarely any need to go to the menus at all.

Which is how it should be. But I chose the IQ of the 5D and have learned
to
live with the menu system.

So what is that P&S camera with manual zoom and focus that you like?
Make/model? \

I haven't used a p&s for several years, so I wouldn't be the right
person to ask that question.

Sorry, it was Pat Dalton that claimed he know of such a camera. It doesn't
exist, AFAIK...