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Focal plane vs. leaf shutters in MF SLRs



 
 
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  #141  
Old May 27th 04, 02:10 AM
Raphael Bustin
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Default ideal cameras? Omega 120 surprise convertible lens RF?

On Wed, 26 May 2004 20:45:41 +0200, "Q.G. de Bakker"
wrote:

Neil Gould wrote:

OTOH, I see no problem scanning MF or LF.
Right now, that's pretty much the best of all worlds.

Exactly what I wrote in another post a while back. We're on the same page,
here.


While i too am a "scanner", i'm not on that "i see no problem" page with
you.

While i thought developing film was terminally boring, scanning film really
"outbores" that by far.
And i still have to develop those films too...!




Ahhh, one must work for all that "quality,"
even in the digital darkroom.

It generally takes me an evening -- say
four or five hours' work -- to scan a roll
of 645 (15 frames.)

The good news is you only have to do
that once.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
  #142  
Old May 27th 04, 02:17 AM
Raphael Bustin
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Default MF future? ideal cameras?

On Wed, 26 May 2004 16:39:03 GMT, "RSD99"
wrote:

"Raphael Bustin" posted:
"...
there's no need for 16 million
pixels to make a 4x6" print when our printers really only
have an effective contone resolution of, say, 250 dpi.
..."


WHY should the user be limited to a 4" x 6" print? I may want to make 40" x 60" displays
... or maybe even larger.



Read my comments in the context of the
preceding thread.

4x6" just happens to be the lowest common
denominator (if not 3x5") for the prints that
consumers generally expect.

If you're making 40" x 60" displays you're in
a different league and my comments don't
apply to you. (Nor me, I can never get
enough pixels.)


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
  #143  
Old May 27th 04, 02:32 AM
Raphael Bustin
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Default ideal cameras? Omega 120 surprise convertible lens RF?

On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:45:46 GMT, "Neil Gould"
wrote:


Ah, this is a different matter. I think that the introduction of digital
photography has stirred the pot, but when things settle down, I think
there will still be an appropriate use for MF that can't be satisfied by
other options.



I see, a silver lining to the dreaded digital invasion.

And why should it not be so?

Digital will introduce (or reintroduce) people to
photography. Eventually, some will take it
seriously, and begin to look beyond digital.

(Either that, or agitate for better and better
digital.)

I dare say it's happened to me. I jumped to
MF four years ago. To digital two years ago.
And to LF just these last few months.

There's a place for all of the old gear and
new, except maybe the Nikons, I fear.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
  #144  
Old May 27th 04, 02:39 AM
jjs
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Default MF future? ideal cameras?

In article , Lassi
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Hippel=E4inen?=
wrote:

jjs wrote:

The thread that mentioned the 44mm square digital sensor reminds me of one
solution to the MF digital "problem". Let's think like marketeers and
simply declare that MF is smaller! That's the ticket. If you can't meet
the medium's high standards, redefine and lower the bar!


Start spreading a rumour: now that a suitably sized sensor will become
available, Rollei will introduce a digital back for Baby Rolleiflex :-)


Look at the friggin ridiculous overpriced digital wannabe LF and MF
hardware that Calumet and Sinar have. Seems to me they are so far ahead of
the silliness curve that there's no catching up. Parody in action.
  #145  
Old May 27th 04, 02:49 AM
jjs
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Default ideal cameras? Omega 120 surprise convertible lens RF?

In article , Raphael Bustin
wrote:

I see, a silver lining to the dreaded digital invasion.

And why should it not be so?

Digital will introduce (or reintroduce) people to
photography. Eventually, some will take it
seriously, and begin to look beyond digital.


TV didn't move the population towards live theater - unless it was on TV
and you know that's not the same thing. The Instamatic didn't move the
population to appreciate photography, either. Digital won't do squat to
change anything for the better. It's just more of the same - built-in
obsolescence, lost pictures and in that regard I applaud digital.
  #149  
Old May 27th 04, 03:56 AM
Gordon Moat
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Default digital bubble to burst? ideal cameras?

Vladamir30 wrote:

Very likely true, maybe in boxes from China. I see nothing wrong with
scanning, or digital printing, except for B/W.


Possibly you've never seen a digital black and white print made by someone
who really knows what they're doing, e.g. George DeWolfe.


Yes, I have. While it is definitely my opinion, I still feel that these prints
are not the same as true B/W prints. Bottom line on this is that I do not like
the quality of the prints, and I will not mistake them for true B/W prints.

That is not to say that they cannot be very well done high quality images. On
the contrary, I find many of these digitally printed B/W images to be very
aesthetically pleasing, and very nice compelling compositions. The method of
printing does not invalidate the fact that I like the images.

Since taking
George's digital black and white printing course at the Palm Beach
Photographic Workshops a couple years ago I've been scanning my 4x5 and 8x10
negatives and printing B&W digitally. I do the same with my 6x7 negatives
if the print won't be larger than 8x10, hardware limitations of my
relatively inexpensive scanner prevent me from making quality prints larger
than that from 6x7 so I still use my traditional darkroom for that very
limited purpose. I think the greatly enhanced control, the ability to make
tiny changes impossible in a traditional darkroom, the ability to easily
experiment and see different possibilities instantaneously on the monitor
all add up to a preferable way, for me at least, of making black and white
prints. I participate in a group of large format photographers that has been
meeting once a month for 8 or so years now. Three years ago only one person
in the group printed black and white digitally, today only one person
doesn't.


I took the Dan Burkholder digital negative and platinum printing workshop in
1997. I don't see anything wrong with those techniques, of others using similar
techniques.

I also do pre-press preparation as part of my work (I am not just a
photographer). I have seen incredibly well done offset and gravure prints done
from scanned B/W images, many that I have prepared for publication. I even have
several samples done using four to eight Pantone inks (all blacks), and those
are amazingly good.

Despite all those quality examples, I still like true chemical B/W prints. I do
like the Burkholder method of creating digital contact negatives, and I have
used that for some of my images. I guess I just like true B/W prints so much
that they are always my first choice. Inkjet or Gicleé B/W is far down my list
of choices.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
http://www.allgstudio.com

  #150  
Old May 27th 04, 04:35 AM
Gordon Moat
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Default ideal cameras? Omega 120 surprise convertible lens RF?

"Q.G. de Bakker" wrote:

Gordon Moat wrote:

[...]
It could be that the only Hasselblad camera production occurs at Fuji,

with the
H1 and Xpan becoming the only product lines. This would then be badge
engineering trading solely on the Hasselblad brand name. At that point, it
becomes a luxury product, and is likely to never return to a larger

market,
unless they start making digital P&S cameras (like Rollei).


Just a note: Hasselblad is still producing most of the H1 too. They are
still very much a manufacturing company, not just an office in which brand
name resides.


Glad to hear that. I am not dissing the quality of Fuji products, and in fact I
have considered purchasing an XPan. I think the partnership is a good thing for
the quality of the products



They tried clocks, haven't they? ;-)


Yeah, surprised they haven't done sunglasses yet, though Zeiss has the

optics
name over Hasselblad recognition. The fitted leather bags for their

cameras are
already hinting at the shift to luxury only products.


Hasselblad is not new to the "brand merchandising" game. You may want to
have a look at what goodies the Hasselblad Boutique is offering. The
boutique, now on the internet
(http://www.agoreklam.net/?Hasselblad_Boutique), has been selling things
like this for years. ;-)


Wow, guess I missed that site. Some cool looking items in there (Sorry . . .
occupational hazard to like design when your work involves design)! Business
Card Case . . . in "retro" style no less . . . girlfriend might like the XPan
scarf . . . orange tie is too much, but the black T-shirt is cool . . . . . .

Maybe the luxury accessories (or even reasonably priced) are the answer for
increased revenues. Harley Davidson took back control of their brand name for
retail products, and have done very well with the accessory market. Also, many
surfboard companies barely make any money on surfboards, yet their clothing
lines make enough money to fund further surfboard design, development, and
production.



[...]
Or a Panasonic plastic lens in a camera badged Leica... ;-)


Yeah! It is coming, and I will not be too surprised when it happens.


Well blow me down if it hasn't happened already...!


I didn't specifically mean Leica and Panasonic, more like the Hasselblad name
on a P&S, though I wonder why that has not happened yet.



. . . . . . . .

I don't see it as all or nothing, so I guess that is largely where we

differ. I
see medium format cameras surviving as a niche product, much like large

format.
However, if the film is no longer produced for these cameras, then they

will
become nice things to stick on a shelf, and no more new sales.


Well, where i think you are wrong is thinking that MF can survive as a niche
product. It's future lies not in being a niche product. Being a niche
product was their past.
What we see happening is not a reduction from "main-stream" to niche
products, but an evacuation of the niche: did it offer not very much in the
past, the niche is now really running low.


Victim of their own success . . . maybe if the older gear did not last so long
there would have been a more continual purchase cycle. However, that is one for
the business students to study in hindsight.

What we see is not well-fed plain
dwellers retiring to some well stored safe but tiny resort, but habitual
niche dwellers losing their sustenance. (or some other insane mixed and
incomplete metaphor like that ;-))


Just incomplete because the issues continue . . . . . . . . . .



Maybe, but I see a change, rather than an extinction. ALPA is not high

volume,
nor high profit, yet they are still in business. [...]


Hasselblad and Rollei and Mamiya and.. too are small volume firms still in
business.
But how about the future? ;-)


Rollei will still be around, though I have no idea on where the price of their
6000 series will go. Mamiya is trying hardest of all, and have a few famous
names behind them, so they might establish enough brand recognition to push
other lines (digital P&S, co-branding, who knows?) . . . maybe even a
partnership with Epson.

So that leaves Hasselblad . . . a great brand name, but what direction? While
the boutique is nice, I doubt many know about it. Perhaps Lambretta is the
example for them. The famous name of the past no longer exists as scooters, but
there is a successful clothing line. Placing the Hasselblad name to something
else, increasing the name recognition, might be enough to continue camera
production. Sounds crazy, but could work.

An example of that craziness is BMW motorcycles. BMW claim to loose money on
every motorcycle they make, yet they also claim to continue production because
that is the history and heritage of the company. There is little to stop a
company like Hasselblad from doing the same thing, and I don't think that would
detract from the quality of the cameras they produce in the future (some might
see this as *******izing, or whoring out of a brand).



One thing that would be nice if your extinction prediction is correct is

that
used medium format should drop to really low prices, like a slightly used
Hasselblad with normal lens for under $US 300, Mamiya RZ67 for $200,

Rollei
6008 for $250, Bronica anything for $100 . . . . . maybe I should start

looking
at those Estate Sales . . . . . . .


Or...
People start hoarding, and prices will go through the roof?
;-)


Evil thought . . . well, hopefully not . . . it would be nice to get an SWC and
Biogon in a year or so for under $US 500. ;-)

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
http://www.allgstudio.com


 




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