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#21
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D3 and Filters
On 2008-04-18, Tully Albrecht wrote:
On 2008-04-18 07:25:58 -0700, Chris Savage said: On 2008-04-18, C J Campbell wrote: On 2008-04-17 15:14:35 -0700, Chris Savage said: On 2008-04-17, C J Campbell wrote: Neither is it possible to correct white balance in software and get the same results as getting white balance right in the first place. You can sometimes get pretty close, but it is definitely not the same. Can you tell me why you say this is, please? I can't find any reason to believe that I can't fix my white balance in post-process. http://savvo.wordpress.com/2008/04/1...-in-raw-files/ Somehow you have to get all these light sources to work together. You want the basketball player to have good skin tones. You want his socks white. You want the background sky to have a gorgeous sunset tone. You want the subway car interior to look realistic. Or you can simply put full green filters on your strobes and a #30 magenta filter on your lens. Works every time. And you don't have to spend all day in front of your computer. Instead, you can go out and take more pictures. OK, sorry. So you're talking about balancing mixed light temperatures. That wasn't clear to me, and in that case you are, of course right that it's only feasible to fix that at shooting time. Although _exactly_ matching your filters to your lighting temperatures is going to take more time and equipment than is available on any shoot I've ever been on. The wild card in all of this is fluorescent. In the days b.d.c. (before digital capture) we futzed around with compensating filters for avoiding the corpse-like hues in skin tones under office-type lighting. I had a light box with Grow-Lux lights (in a studio) that actually did a nice job on Caucasian skin, but the real problem comes from a mix of fluorescent tubes of various color temps. Commercial buildings often mix "cool white" with "warm white" or whatever they're officially branded, and then as they age you end up with a whole spectrum of (typically quite nasty) illumination. Trying to use filtration to tame that beast is a fool's errand. Much better to turn off the ceiling lights, try to get at least some window light in there, use strobes with bounce/diffusion, and shoot daylight film. Or ignore the fluorescents, shoot for the daylight, fill with a little strobe... http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3225/2423635236_9997b5ab70_o.jpg Works just as well with digital as film. -- Chris Savage Kiss me. Or would you rather live in a Gateshead, UK land where the soap won't lather? - Billy Bragg |
#22
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D3 and Filters
On 2008-04-18, Rita Berkowitz wrote:
C J Campbell wrote: If you are a pro, every minute spent in post-processing costs you money, no matter how good you are at it. That computer is eating your profits, especially in today's extremely competitive market. Get the shot right the first time. Well said! I'm glad you were paying attention when I was holding class. You know, one of these days, you really should get round to typing some of these imaginary conversations in your head into usenet. You've still to provide something, anything, to justify your claim that white-balance can foul up exposure. -- Chris Savage Kiss me. Or would you rather live in a Gateshead, UK land where the soap won't lather? - Billy Bragg |
#23
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D3 and Filters
On 2008-04-18 04:41:51 -0700, "Rita Berkowitz" said:
C J Campbell wrote: If you are a pro, every minute spent in post-processing costs you money, no matter how good you are at it. That computer is eating your profits, especially in today's extremely competitive market. Get the shot right the first time. Well said! I'm glad you were paying attention when I was holding class. Rita Actually, I was paying attention when Peter Ellis was holding class. -- Waddling Eagle World Famous Flight Instructor |
#24
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D3 and Filters
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:40:53 -0700, Tully Albrecht
wrote: The wild card in all of this is fluorescent. In the days b.d.c. (before digital capture) we futzed around with compensating filters for avoiding the corpse-like hues in skin tones under office-type lighting. I had a light box with Grow-Lux lights (in a studio) that actually did a nice job on Caucasian skin, but the real problem comes from a mix of fluorescent tubes of various color temps. Commercial buildings often mix "cool white" with "warm white" or whatever they're officially branded, and then as they age you end up with a whole spectrum of (typically quite nasty) illumination. Trying to use filtration to tame that beast is a fool's errand. Much better to turn off the ceiling lights, try to get at least some window light in there, use strobes with bounce/diffusion, and shoot daylight film. All very fine IF you can turn off the offending tubes and bring in your own lights. What if you are in a situation where you can't!? Probably means setting a custom WB, perhaps filtration, and perhaps even some post-processing. Or, you simply accept the fact that colors won't be 100% good throughout your entire image. Depending on the kind of image, that may be acceptable, particularly with the "legacy" of "funny colors" with film photographs. For the problem posed by the OP, I would rely heavily on Photoshop for selective (not global) color correction. Why hang more glass in front of a digital camera than you have to? Father Kodak |
#25
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D3 and Filters
On 2008-04-19 13:36:03 -0700, "Rita Berkowitz" said:
C J Campbell wrote: Well said! I'm glad you were paying attention when I was holding class. Actually, I was paying attention when Peter Ellis was holding class. No wonder, you should have been paying attention to Peter Sellers. Swine photographeur. Any more behavior like this and I'll have your stripes! Rita -- Waddling Eagle World Famous Flight Instructor |
#26
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D3 and Filters
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:33:14 -0700, nospam wrote:
: In article : , Doug : Jewell wrote: : : BTW - if you are planning on doing B&W, then I'd suggest : still using your B&W contrast filters. Photoshop can emulate : them but the result just isn't the same. : : that's a bad idea. due to the bayer pattern, using a colour filter : will adversely affect the resolution of the sensor. : : plus, photoshop can duplicate what the filter would have done and a : whole lot more, including selectively applying various filters to : different parts of the image. And all the B&W filters except yellow are dark enough to cost you a stop or two, which could adversely affect autofocus. Bob |
#27
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D3 and Filters
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:51:56 -0700, C J Campbell
wrote: : I am well aware that there are plenty of software filters out there and : I use them. I think Nikon's filter plug-ins for Capture NX are even : better than these guys. However, software cannot always replicate the : effect of real filters, especially when using spot gels or mixed : lighting. : : Neither is it possible to correct white balance in software and get the : same results as getting white balance right in the first place. You can : sometimes get pretty close, but it is definitely not the same. I just don't believe that. You'd have to prove it by reliably identifying software vs hardware correction in a statistically significant sample of pictures you didn't take. : There is a huge difference between approximating an effect in software : and nailing it in the original image. I know there are photographers : who think they are artists and that they can 'feel' the color : temperature, or that they can walk into a room and tell you what the : white balance should be. I am not one of them. Furthermore, I think : that guys who claim they can 'feel' the color temperature are deluded. : I have never seen one of them who actually could get the white balance : right in tricky lighting situations, or even in an ordinary office with : fluorescent ceiling panels. But here I think you're absolutely right. No one can correctly assess ambient color temperature unaided. The WB correction of the human eye, which cannot be effectively defeated, is just too good to allow it. When a photographer walks into a room, his perception of the color temperature depends strongly on the color temperature of the room he just walked out of. And the longer he stays in the room, the less reliable his perception becomes. Fluorescents are particularly tricky, probably because their "white" light is composed of relatively few discrete frequencies. The very concept of "color temperature" breaks down in that environment. To get the WB exactly right in software, you'd have to know the frequencies and their relative strengths. But to do it with a filter may well be impossible. Bob |
#28
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D3 and Filters
On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:36:03 -0400, "Rita Berkowitz"
wrote: : C J Campbell wrote: : : Well said! I'm glad you were paying attention when I was holding : class. : : Actually, I was paying attention when Peter Ellis was holding class. : : No wonder, you should have been paying attention to Peter Sellers. Rita is starting to gibber. If someone lives nearby, an intervention may be in order. Bob |
#29
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D3 and Filters
nospam wrote:
In article , Doug Jewell wrote: BTW - if you are planning on doing B&W, then I'd suggest still using your B&W contrast filters. Photoshop can emulate them but the result just isn't the same. that's a bad idea. due to the bayer pattern, using a colour filter will adversely affect the resolution of the sensor. plus, photoshop can duplicate what the filter would have done and a whole lot more, including selectively applying various filters to different parts of the image. |
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