Serious question from a skeptic - practical realities of taking clearvideo/stills of UFO's?

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" wrote in message
...
Dear William Graham:

"William Graham" wrote in message
. ..

"Doc" wrote in message
...
On Feb 19, 6:24 pm, dlzc wrote:

I've seen UFOs. But I don't care if I convince
someone of that, nor whether or not they were
of extra-terrestial origin. Not my job. I got 15-20
seconds of amazement, and a friend right next
to me that could not see it. I consider it a gift.

Heckling welcomed. No aluminum foil hats here.

I believe you've seen objects you've been unable
to identify, by default making it a "UFO" from
your vantage point whether it was a cloud or the
Goodyear blimp. Not so easily convinced that it
had anything to do with visitors from another
planet.

Yeah.....With my knowledge of aircraft, almost
everything in the sky is a, "UFO" to me.......But
the last thing I would assume is that any of it is from some other
planet......The closest "other
planet" is over 4 light years away from us, so
this is a no brainer.......

Oh, I don't think the technology is impossible. If we can think of it, we
can eventually accomplish it. I cannot believe we are the smartest
organism to come along in the history of the Universe.

"Impossible" can mean many things to many people. In theory, anything might
be possible, especially to a pure mathematician. But realistically, if you
are going to bother to even consider (and discuss) any problem, then you
must consider the laws of physics as we know them to be today. And, in the
light of those laws, it is extremely unlikely that any object here on earth
came here from some other star system. - I have no objection to "flights of
fantacy" speculation, but just understand that when you indulge it these,
you are leaving the realm of rational thought, and entering the realm of
science fiction fantacy. IOW, when I look up in the sky, and see something
that I do not understand, I will be willing to believe almost anything about
it rather than speculate on it's origin being outside of our own solar
system. This is simply a practical matter based on all the laws of physics
that I have known (and used) during my whole lifetime. I spent about 30
years working at a high energy physics laboratory chock full of people with
PhD's in physics. We used relativistic mechanics on a daily basis to solve
real problems involved with the machines we built and used to investigate
the make up of matter. I can assure you that these equations were reliable,
and enabled us to do our jobs well. We built and used machines that cost the
taxpayers over 100 million dollars using them, and they worked as expected
when completed. So, I am forced to go with that technology unless and until
I am shown some other technology and had it explained mathematically to me,
and demonstrated to me as well.




But if you have the technology, why would you come *here*? They probably
already know what the Vogons have planned... It can't be for the "hot
air", the pig swill of political rhetoric, or the very remarkable material
governmentium. or they'd be seen over Washington D.C.

David A. Smith

"Dudley Hanks" wrote in message
news:xW%uj.36747$w57.9666@edtnps90...

"Bill" wrote in message
.. .
You know, if the Air Force really did want to keep some of their
exercises a secret, why wouldn't they just say, "Golly, yes, I guess you
must have seen a UFO..." and leave it at that.

It seems odd when they sometimes say there was no UFO. It is
understandable that they would say "it wasn't us", but how could they
possibly know for sure it wasn't somebody else? Everybody stay calm.

Well, I can understand how discussing the difficulties of catching a UFO
in clear detail might fit into this newsgroup, but second guessing
military responses seems a bit outside the purpose of alt.photography.
However, I'm a sucker for this kind of discussion, so I'll bite.

If the military actually said, "Hey, isn't that neat! You folks saw a UFO
over Vegas last night. Cool!" Wouldn't that lead to a bit of anxiety on
the part of Vegas residents? Wouldn't the people of that fair city then
be saying: "So, with all the money in your budget you missed it? Are you
also going to miss a missile coming in over the Atlantic or Pacific?"

Given our system of command and control and accountability, the powers
that be need to maintain the impression that they are like God,
omnipresent and ever vigilant. To admit that something happened that
cannot be rationalized underminds the whole system and will never be
admitted.

Take Care,
Dudley


The air force could say, "Wow! - It's a good thing that our enemies don't
have the technology that those aliens have. They were able to travel all
that way without being detected, and our enemies can't even launch a missile
a few hundred miles with us not only knowing about it, but being able to
shoot it down!"

This whole UFO discussion suffers from the same thing that my atheism
suffered from when I was arguing with the religious types.....In the long
run, it doesn't matter whether there is a God or not, because he doesn't do
anything for us in any case, so who cares? - In the same manner, if the
aliens don't come down to Earth and show themselves to us and help us solve
some of our problems, then why would we care whether they are real or not?
IOW, I don't really care whether the UFO's are from other solar systems or
not. It is perfectly obvious to me that at this late date, they aren't going
to help or hinder us in any way, so why would it matter what they are? And,
therefore, why bother to speculate about it? It doesn't matter whether a God
who never intervenes exists or not, does it?

"William Graham" wrote in message
. ..

"Dudley Hanks" wrote in message
news:xW%uj.36747$w57.9666@edtnps90...

"Bill" wrote in message
.. .
You know, if the Air Force really did want to keep some of their
exercises a secret, why wouldn't they just say, "Golly, yes, I guess you
must have seen a UFO..." and leave it at that.

It seems odd when they sometimes say there was no UFO. It is
understandable that they would say "it wasn't us", but how could they
possibly know for sure it wasn't somebody else? Everybody stay calm.

Well, I can understand how discussing the difficulties of catching a UFO
in clear detail might fit into this newsgroup, but second guessing
military responses seems a bit outside the purpose of alt.photography.
However, I'm a sucker for this kind of discussion, so I'll bite.

If the military actually said, "Hey, isn't that neat! You folks saw a
UFO over Vegas last night. Cool!" Wouldn't that lead to a bit of
anxiety on the part of Vegas residents? Wouldn't the people of that fair
city then be saying: "So, with all the money in your budget you missed
it? Are you also going to miss a missile coming in over the Atlantic or
Pacific?"

Given our system of command and control and accountability, the powers
that be need to maintain the impression that they are like God,
omnipresent and ever vigilant. To admit that something happened that
cannot be rationalized underminds the whole system and will never be
admitted.

Take Care,
Dudley


The air force could say, "Wow! - It's a good thing that our enemies don't
have the technology that those aliens have. They were able to travel all
that way without being detected, and our enemies can't even launch a
missile a few hundred miles with us not only knowing about it, but being
able to shoot it down!"

And, how long would such a general, admiral or politician keep his or her
job after offering up a statement such as that?

This whole UFO discussion suffers from the same thing that my atheism
suffered from when I was arguing with the religious types.....In the long
run, it doesn't matter whether there is a God or not, because he doesn't
do anything for us in any case, so who cares? - In the same manner, if the
aliens don't come down to Earth and show themselves to us and help us
solve some of our problems, then why would we care whether they are real
or not? IOW, I don't really care whether the UFO's are from other solar
systems or not. It is perfectly obvious to me that at this late date, they
aren't going to help or hinder us in any way, so why would it matter what
they are? And, therefore, why bother to speculate about it? It doesn't
matter whether a God who never intervenes exists or not, does it?

I'll bite on the questions of aliens, but the whole God debate I'll leave to
other forums, or you can e-mail me at for a private
dialectic.

Regarding why we should care if alien crafts are sighted but do not interact
with us, well, wouldn't you be interested if you knew that an invasion was
iminent? Or, if you, yourself, kept seeing things you couldn't rationally
interpret, wouldn't you be concerned that you either needed to upgrade your
education or seek competant psychological assistance?

From the time of Plato and Aristotle, if not from the earliest wondering
contemplations of cavemen, the human race has sought to understand both
ourselves and the world around us. Why draw the line at the present level
of understanding and say, "Great, we now know enough to live comfortably.
Let's all just sit back and have a big retirement party!"

As long as stuff happens that cannot be rationally explained, enquiring
minds will want explainations, and the search for explainations will spawn
inquisitorial discussions until solutions are settled upon.

Take Care,
Dudley

"Dudley Hanks" wrote in message
news:tP0vj.36777$w57.31873@edtnps90...

"William Graham" wrote in message
. ..

"Dudley Hanks" wrote in message
news:xW%uj.36747$w57.9666@edtnps90...

"Bill" wrote in message
.. .
You know, if the Air Force really did want to keep some of their
exercises a secret, why wouldn't they just say, "Golly, yes, I guess
you must have seen a UFO..." and leave it at that.

It seems odd when they sometimes say there was no UFO. It is
understandable that they would say "it wasn't us", but how could they
possibly know for sure it wasn't somebody else? Everybody stay calm.

Well, I can understand how discussing the difficulties of catching a UFO
in clear detail might fit into this newsgroup, but second guessing
military responses seems a bit outside the purpose of alt.photography.
However, I'm a sucker for this kind of discussion, so I'll bite.

If the military actually said, "Hey, isn't that neat! You folks saw a
UFO over Vegas last night. Cool!" Wouldn't that lead to a bit of
anxiety on the part of Vegas residents? Wouldn't the people of that
fair city then be saying: "So, with all the money in your budget you
missed it? Are you also going to miss a missile coming in over the
Atlantic or Pacific?"

Given our system of command and control and accountability, the powers
that be need to maintain the impression that they are like God,
omnipresent and ever vigilant. To admit that something happened that
cannot be rationalized underminds the whole system and will never be
admitted.

Take Care,
Dudley


The air force could say, "Wow! - It's a good thing that our enemies don't
have the technology that those aliens have. They were able to travel all
that way without being detected, and our enemies can't even launch a
missile a few hundred miles with us not only knowing about it, but being
able to shoot it down!"

And, how long would such a general, admiral or politician keep his or her
job after offering up a statement such as that?

This whole UFO discussion suffers from the same thing that my atheism
suffered from when I was arguing with the religious types.....In the long
run, it doesn't matter whether there is a God or not, because he doesn't
do anything for us in any case, so who cares? - In the same manner, if
the aliens don't come down to Earth and show themselves to us and help us
solve some of our problems, then why would we care whether they are real
or not? IOW, I don't really care whether the UFO's are from other solar
systems or not. It is perfectly obvious to me that at this late date,
they aren't going to help or hinder us in any way, so why would it matter
what they are? And, therefore, why bother to speculate about it? It
doesn't matter whether a God who never intervenes exists or not, does it?

I'll bite on the questions of aliens, but the whole God debate I'll leave
to other forums, or you can e-mail me at for a
private dialectic.

Regarding why we should care if alien crafts are sighted but do not
interact with us, well, wouldn't you be interested if you knew that an
invasion was iminent? Or, if you, yourself, kept seeing things you
couldn't rationally interpret, wouldn't you be concerned that you either
needed to upgrade your education or seek competant psychological
assistance?

From the time of Plato and Aristotle, if not from the earliest wondering
contemplations of cavemen, the human race has sought to understand both
ourselves and the world around us. Why draw the line at the present level
of understanding and say, "Great, we now know enough to live comfortably.
Let's all just sit back and have a big retirement party!"

As long as stuff happens that cannot be rationally explained, enquiring
minds will want explainations, and the search for explainations will spawn
inquisitorial discussions until solutions are settled upon.

Take Care,
Dudley

Nope.....Not if I couldn't do anything about it, I wouldn't.

And, I will leave wild ass speculation to the speculators who (apparently)
need to have such things to speculate about.....In the meantime, I will
speculate on or about those things that I have some hope of doing something
about, or which can improve my circumstances. There are more than enough
real unsolved problems in the society. Why should I bother with
manufacturing imaginary problems that have no useful purpose or solution?

"William Graham" wrote in message
. ..

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" wrote in message
...
Dear William Graham:

"William Graham" wrote in message
. ..

"Impossible" can mean many things to many people. In theory, anything
might be possible, especially to a pure mathematician. But realistically,
if you are going to bother to even consider (and discuss) any problem,
then you must consider the laws of physics as we know them to be today.
And, in the light of those laws, it is extremely unlikely that any object
here on earth came here from some other star system. - I have no objection
to "flights of fantacy" speculation, but just understand that when you
indulge it these, you are leaving the realm of rational thought, and
entering the realm of science fiction fantacy. IOW, when I look up in the
sky, and see something that I do not understand, I will be willing to
believe almost anything about it rather than speculate on it's origin
being outside of our own solar system. This is simply a practical matter
based on all the laws of physics that I have known (and used) during my
whole lifetime. I spent about 30 years working at a high energy physics
laboratory chock full of people with PhD's in physics. We used
relativistic mechanics on a daily basis to solve real problems involved
with the machines we built and used to investigate the make up of matter.
I can assure you that these equations were reliable, and enabled us to do
our jobs well. We built and used machines that cost the taxpayers over 100
million dollars using them, and they worked as expected when completed.
So, I am forced to go with that technology unless and until I am shown
some other technology and had it explained mathematically to me, and
demonstrated to me as well.

Attitude towards your fantasy vs. known reality is what is important.

I don't like the word "impossible" very much. It is just too limiting.
Unless we have people that are willing to crawl onto a limb to attempt
to prove that what was thought to be impossible actually is possible.

It is often important to know something about the limbs you climb out to,
but knowledge can be limiting as much ignorance, in some cases.

Then you get to faith. You have faith in science, and with good cause.
Others have faith in concepts or beings that science has debunked.
If they already have a distrust of science, as most religions seem to
want to teach, then the stretch to there being alien visitors.

A UFO is just something that flies that an individual can't yet identify,
Until you or someone you trust has evidence, it remains unidentified.
Nothing more nothing less. I can have a fantasy that it came from
the moon, or it is a illumination flare, or anything else I can come
up with. It is just important that I convey it as a fantasy, not fact.

People often say that they are telling you facts when in reality they
are using mostly flawed information to reinforce their fantasy.

David

I'll bite on the questions of aliens, but the whole God debate I'll leave
to other forums, or you can e-mail me at for a
private dialectic.

Regarding why we should care if alien crafts are sighted but do not
interact with us, well, wouldn't you be interested if you knew that an
invasion was iminent? Or, if you, yourself, kept seeing things you
couldn't rationally interpret, wouldn't you be concerned that you either
needed to upgrade your education or seek competant psychological
assistance?

From the time of Plato and Aristotle, if not from the earliest wondering
contemplations of cavemen, the human race has sought to understand both
ourselves and the world around us. Why draw the line at the present
level of understanding and say, "Great, we now know enough to live
comfortably. Let's all just sit back and have a big retirement party!"

As long as stuff happens that cannot be rationally explained, enquiring
minds will want explainations, and the search for explainations will
spawn inquisitorial discussions until solutions are settled upon.

Take Care,
Dudley

Nope.....Not if I couldn't do anything about it, I wouldn't.

And, I will leave wild ass speculation to the speculators who (apparently)
need to have such things to speculate about.....In the meantime, I will
speculate on or about those things that I have some hope of doing
something about, or which can improve my circumstances. There are more
than enough real unsolved problems in the society. Why should I bother
with manufacturing imaginary problems that have no useful purpose or
solution?


Fair enough. If one has never encountered a physical phenomena that one
cannot explain or rationalize with reference to one's own experience, then
it is easy enough to dismiss someone else who has seen something like an
unidentified flying object.

But, when others who have had such experiences and want to discuss them, I
think it is somewhat selfish to simply dismiss the enquirey as rubbish and
nonsense. Remember Mount St. Hellens? Living hundreds of miles away from
the mostly dormant volcano, I didn't really care that scientists were
predicting an eminant eruption. But, supposedly, there was some old guy who
had been living there all his life, and who had told everyone he didn't care
what the scientists were predicting because he had seen it all and heard it
all before. And, hey, nobody could remember the last time there was an
eruption, so it really was unlikely that it was going to affect him in any
way. And, hey, even if a bit of smoke and ash got spewed up in the air,
"What the hell?"

Supposedly the old guy was vapourised in the blast. And the ash trail was
detected well into Canada.

While I wouldn't exactly call myself a firm believer in aliens and their
flying fortresses, I like to think that I keep an open mind, so I won't be
taken entirely by surprise when ET parks his saucer in my backyard and wants
to rev up my cell.

Take Care,
Dudley

"Dudley Hanks" wrote in message
news:qE1vj.36815$w57.30655@edtnps90...
I'll bite on the questions of aliens, but the whole God debate I'll
leave to other forums, or you can e-mail me at
for a private dialectic.

Regarding why we should care if alien crafts are sighted but do not
interact with us, well, wouldn't you be interested if you knew that an
invasion was iminent? Or, if you, yourself, kept seeing things you
couldn't rationally interpret, wouldn't you be concerned that you either
needed to upgrade your education or seek competant psychological
assistance?

From the time of Plato and Aristotle, if not from the earliest wondering
contemplations of cavemen, the human race has sought to understand both
ourselves and the world around us. Why draw the line at the present
level of understanding and say, "Great, we now know enough to live
comfortably. Let's all just sit back and have a big retirement party!"

As long as stuff happens that cannot be rationally explained, enquiring
minds will want explainations, and the search for explainations will
spawn inquisitorial discussions until solutions are settled upon.

Take Care,
Dudley

Nope.....Not if I couldn't do anything about it, I wouldn't.

And, I will leave wild ass speculation to the speculators who
(apparently) need to have such things to speculate about.....In the
meantime, I will speculate on or about those things that I have some hope
of doing something about, or which can improve my circumstances. There
are more than enough real unsolved problems in the society. Why should I
bother with manufacturing imaginary problems that have no useful purpose
or solution?


Fair enough. If one has never encountered a physical phenomena that one
cannot explain or rationalize with reference to one's own experience, then
it is easy enough to dismiss someone else who has seen something like an
unidentified flying object.

But, when others who have had such experiences and want to discuss them, I
think it is somewhat selfish to simply dismiss the enquirey as rubbish and
nonsense. Remember Mount St. Hellens? Living hundreds of miles away from
the mostly dormant volcano, I didn't really care that scientists were
predicting an eminant eruption. But, supposedly, there was some old guy
who had been living there all his life, and who had told everyone he
didn't care what the scientists were predicting because he had seen it all
and heard it all before. And, hey, nobody could remember the last time
there was an eruption, so it really was unlikely that it was going to
affect him in any way. And, hey, even if a bit of smoke and ash got
spewed up in the air, "What the hell?"

Supposedly the old guy was vapourised in the blast. And the ash trail was
detected well into Canada.

While I wouldn't exactly call myself a firm believer in aliens and their
flying fortresses, I like to think that I keep an open mind, so I won't be
taken entirely by surprise when ET parks his saucer in my backyard and
wants to rev up my cell.

Take Care,
Dudley


The geezer could have left. Presumably he knew that volcanoes had erupted in
the past, so I guess he was taking a calculated risk.....Scientists who
study volcanoes do the same thing. And, if I saw a flying saucer, I would
change my mind, (depending on exactly what I saw) But all I have seen is the
testimony of others whom I did not believe. The same kind of testimony that
tells me that bigfoot doesn't exist. (and that crop circles don't exist,
either)So, I will keep a "closed mind", until I get some substantiation.
Today, photographs aren't good enough. Not since, "2001 - A Space Odyssey"
You can just do too much with Photoshop to make photography believable. IOW,
when the little green men get around to kidnapping me, then I will change my
mind, but until then, I think it is a waste of time to speculate on such
things.

"David McCall" wrote in message
news:Ij1vj.15560$MY2.15184@trndny07...

"William Graham" wrote in message
. ..

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" wrote in message
...
Dear William Graham:

"William Graham" wrote in message
. ..

People often say that they are telling you facts when in reality they
are using mostly flawed information to reinforce their fantasy.

David


Exactly. So, I have little to go on but my own common sense, acquired from a
lifetime of observation and experience. This common sense tells me that
UFO's (as extraterrestrial objects) don't exist. I don't believe in bigfoot
and crop circles either, for the same kinds of reasons. And today, even with
good, sharp, crisp photographs, I wouldn't believe in them either.....So,
after about 50 years of hearing about these things, and with everybody and
his brother carrying cameras, I still haven't seen or heard of any decent
evidence on any of the three.....Make that four.....(We'll throw in the Loch
Ness monster, too.) And, as time goes on, the likelihood of there being
anything to any of these wild stories lessons more every day. I am more of a
non-believer today than I ever have been in the past. But hey, if others
want to waste their time speculating about those things, well, they can have
at it. I just don't want them to be angry at me for knowing better, or to
say things like, "You don't have an open mind." My mind has to be waiting
for them to bring me absolute proof.....If that's not having an open mind,
well, I'm sorry about that, but the burden of proof has to lie with the one
who claims that the little green men exist, and not with me who claims that
they don't.

Dear William Graham:

"William Graham" wrote in message
. ..
....
"Impossible" can mean many things to many people.
In theory, anything might be possible, especially to a
pure mathematician.

Be a little careful with "in theory". Theory presumes some
experimental underpinnings. I think you mean "imagination",
rather than "theory".

But realistically, if you are going to bother to even
consider (and discuss) any problem, then you must consider the
laws of physics as we know
them to be today.

Such as the quantum realm, where neither space nor time have any
meaning? Where all particle-particle interactions travel all
possible paths at all possible speeds (not limited to c)? Did
you mean those *known* laws of physics? What we don't know is
*why* it all seems to "pace" the way classical mechanics
describes. Quantum mechanics is not keeping our butts on the
planet.

And, in the light of those laws, it is extremely
unlikely that any object here on earth came
here from some other star system.

Absolutely *no* correlation between what you understand of
physics (today), and what a possible civilization that could be
older than ours might be able to do. Hell, it does not limit
"ETs" from being Earthling visitors from the future, ala the
"Philadelphia experiment" or "Sphere". Only classical physics
provides these limits. We already know physics that has no such
limitations.

I have no objection to "flights of fantacy"
speculation, but just understand that when you
indulge it these, you are leaving the realm of
rational thought, and entering the realm of science fiction
fantacy.

Said about H.G. Wells, and a number of other folks. Seems like
their flights act to guide us... either towards or away from any
given path.

IOW, when I look up in the sky, and see
something that I do not understand, I will be
willing to believe almost anything about it
rather than speculate on it's origin being
outside of our own solar system.

To each his / her own. Funny that you do not allow for physics
that you do not yet know.

This is simply a practical matter based on all
the laws of physics that I have known (and
used) during my whole lifetime. I spent about
30 years working at a high energy physics
laboratory chock full of people with PhD's in
physics. We used relativistic mechanics on a
daily basis to solve real problems involved with
the machines we built and used to investigate the make up of
matter. I can assure you that
these equations were reliable, and enabled us
to do our jobs well. We built and used
machines that cost the taxpayers over 100
million dollars using them, and they worked as
expected when completed. So, I am forced to
go with that technology unless and until I am
shown some other technology and had it
explained mathematically to me, and
demonstrated to me as well.

Acknowledged.

So your take is, they cannot take pictures of something that
*cannot* exist? (Trying to drag this back to the thread topic.)

David A. Smith

On Feb 20, 7:35*pm, "William Graham" wrote:

(and that crop circles don't exist,
either)


Oh, they definitely exist. They're created with great care by
pranksters and farmers who make a few bucks off charging admission to
idiots who want to gawk at them.

From what I've seen, making a good one takes a lot of planning.