Question on film

I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
care if its touchy in developing or shooting, no grain is good grain ?

I have read Agfa 25 fits the bill, but also have read Agfa is Kaput....

What else is there out there ? rollei 100 made by ? I have read that
its shap, less of a "modern" film, but Im looking for something RAZOR,
slow is fine....as sharp as possible is the requirmment...

(Oh in 120)

Thanks

Chris

On 20 Mar 2006 20:16:49 -0800, wrote:

I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
care if its touchy in developing or shooting, no grain is good grain ?

I have read Agfa 25 fits the bill, but also have read Agfa is Kaput....

What else is there out there ? rollei 100 made by ? I have read that
its shap, less of a "modern" film, but Im looking for something RAZOR,
slow is fine....as sharp as possible is the requirmment...

(Oh in 120)

Thanks

Chris

You're asking for opinions so here's mine.

TMX-100, EI 32, D-23 1:1, 12 min. 70F.

Yes, APX25 was the best film made and yes, Agfa is kaput.

==
John S. Douglas
Photographer & Webmaster
www.legacy-photo,com
www.xs750.net

Hi Chris,

Two points about "sharp", first it is highly subjective. Second, it is more
a matter of processing than film type. You need to minimize agitation while
processing to build up a good edge effect. In the post by John Douglas ,
he gives an example of using a relatively dilute traditional developer with
a rather modern film. Note that his recommendation is to over expose the
film and develop for a relatively long period. As a photoscientist, I agree
that this is good advice both for tonality and sharpness. I would only add
that you need to agitate far less. The problem with this technique is that
it is difficult to achieve uniform development. If I were you, I might also
look at Fuji Acros. I've never used it myself, but I am ready to get off my
rear end and start shooting black and white again after the spring starts to
arrive. This morning it's 24degrees F. A little too cold for an old duffer
like me..

--
Tom Lianza
Director of Display and Capture Technologies
GretagMacbeth LLC
3 Industrial Drive
Unit 7&8
Windham, NH 03087
603.681.0315 x232 Tel
603.681.0316 Fax


wrote in message
oups.com...
I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
care if its touchy in developing or shooting, no grain is good grain ?

I have read Agfa 25 fits the bill, but also have read Agfa is Kaput....

What else is there out there ? rollei 100 made by ? I have read that
its shap, less of a "modern" film, but Im looking for something RAZOR,
slow is fine....as sharp as possible is the requirmment...

(Oh in 120)

Thanks

Chris

John wrote:
On 20 Mar 2006 20:16:49 -0800, wrote:

I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
care if its touchy in developing or shooting, no grain is good grain ?

I have read Agfa 25 fits the bill, but also have read Agfa is Kaput....

What else is there out there ? rollei 100 made by ? I have read that
its shap, less of a "modern" film, but Im looking for something RAZOR,
slow is fine....as sharp as possible is the requirmment...

(Oh in 120)

Thanks

Chris

You're asking for opinions so here's mine.

TMX-100, EI 32, D-23 1:1, 12 min. 70F.

I partly agree. If you use D-23, John is probably right, though I do not
think D-23 is sharp enough, probably due to all that sulphite. For 4x5 and
up it is probably acceptable. For 35mm, it may be too mushy for your taste.

I think TMX (100) is the sharpest film for practical use in a hand-held
camera. I prefer Xtol developer 1+1, and for that, an EI of 50 is perfectly
good (the EI is affected somewhat by the developer used). I develop for the
time Kodak recommend, using a diffusion enlarger. If you use a condenser
enlarger, you will probably want to develop for a bit less time.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 07:05:01 up 5 days, 8:16, 3 users, load average: 4.34, 4.21, 4.12

It has been several years since I did much darkroom work, but the best
film that I ever saw was Ilford Pan F (Now called Ilford Pan F Plus).
It is available in 120 size from helixcamera.com for $2.99 per roll. I
did a lot of film over the years, but Ilford Pan F was the only film I
ever found that was "viritually" grainless.
Clint H.

Last night surfing I found Efke 25 and Rollei 25 , any word on these ?
the Efke is cheap. $3.00 a roll cheap..."supposedly" it is not a
"modern" film and supposedly has a high silver content.

And while I know there is much heated debate (on the net) about silver
content old stly vs new stlye film etc etc.

What I am looking for is pictures like my grandfather shot, he isnt
around anymore to ask but his photos were absolutley amazing, the B&W
was so crisp with no grain visible

Another question on what you and another were saying about developing,
I apologize for my ABSOLUTE ignornace when you say a 1:1 dilution , I
mixed the developer with 1 gal of water as the instructions said , do I
then mix say 1 pint of that solution with 1 pint of water again ?

Do I want a slower/longer developing process or a quicker one to avoid
the graininess ?

Also is it better to do this in a Tray or Tank for clarity ?

Many Thanks

Chris

Jean-David Beyer wrote:
John wrote:
On 20 Mar 2006 20:16:49 -0800, wrote:

I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
care if its touchy in developing or shooting, no grain is good grain ?

I have read Agfa 25 fits the bill, but also have read Agfa is Kaput....

What else is there out there ? rollei 100 made by ? I have read that
its shap, less of a "modern" film, but Im looking for something RAZOR,
slow is fine....as sharp as possible is the requirmment...

(Oh in 120)

Thanks

Chris

You're asking for opinions so here's mine.

TMX-100, EI 32, D-23 1:1, 12 min. 70F.

I partly agree. If you use D-23, John is probably right, though I do not
think D-23 is sharp enough, probably due to all that sulphite. For 4x5 and
up it is probably acceptable. For 35mm, it may be too mushy for your taste.

I think TMX (100) is the sharpest film for practical use in a hand-held
camera. I prefer Xtol developer 1+1, and for that, an EI of 50 is perfectly
good (the EI is affected somewhat by the developer used). I develop for the
time Kodak recommend, using a diffusion enlarger. If you use a condenser
enlarger, you will probably want to develop for a bit less time.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 07:05:01 up 5 days, 8:16, 3 users, load average: 4.34, 4.21, 4.12

wrote:
I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
care if its touchy in developing or shooting, no grain is good grain ?

I have read Agfa 25 fits the bill, but also have read Agfa is Kaput....

What else is there out there ? rollei 100 made by ? I have read that
its shap, less of a "modern" film, but Im looking for something RAZOR,
slow is fine....as sharp as possible is the requirmment...

(Oh in 120)

Thanks

Chris

If what you want is absense of grain and high resolution use
100T-Max developed in either Microdol-X or Perceptol (they are
virtually identical) at full sttrength. Sharpness is another issue. The
eye interprets high contrast edges as sharpness. Kodak invented the
term "acutance" for this effect. High acutance pictures will give the
illusion of sharpness even when there is not really very much detail
present. A sharp grain pattern can also give the illusion of sharpness
even when the underlying image is a bit blurry. Both of these effects
have been widely used in 35mm photography where both film and lens
performance is often limited.
Acutance effefts are produced on the negative by using developers
which tend to exagerate the contrast as sharp transitions between dark
and light. The mechanism for this has to with the generation of
developer reaction products right at the transition. The developer must
have certain properties to exagerate acutance. Those which are suitable
are generally fairly highly diluted and have relatively sulfite in
them. The sulfite tends to prevent the reaction products which are
responsible for the acutance effect from being formed.
The extra-fine-grain developers I recommended above do not produce
much acutance effect, nor, of cource, do they produce a sharp grain
pattern. What they offer is relatively high resolution and smoothness
of tone rendition both due to the relative absence of grain. Images
from 35mm cameras can look soft when photographed with a fine grain
film and fine grain developer because the lens itself is not too sharp.
Where excellent lenses are used the image will appear to be sharp plus
the tone rendition will begin to have the smoothness usually produced
by larger formats.
Tabluar grain films, like Kodak T-Max, Ilford Delta, and Fuji
Acros, have inherently finer grain for a given speed than conventional
emulsions. I can't say about Delta and Fuji, but I have experimented
with 100T-Max and Perceptol and find it about as fine grained as Kodak
Technical Pan in Technidol developer. Technical Pan, now discontinued,
was a special film, a normally rather high contrast film which produced
extremely fine grain with normal contrast when developed in a special
developer. T-Max in Perceptol or Microdol-X, is virtually as fine
grain, is not fussy about contrast, and has around 3 to 4 times the
speed.

--
Richard Knoppow

About six months ago I decided to give Efke-25 a try. Keeping with the
"old" film approach I got some tfx-2 from photographers formulary. I used
a semi-stand development and am at time still amazed by the results. When
printing 4x5 negatives on 11x14 paper the prints are painfully sharp.

One thing to keep in mind is that Efke-25 and Efke-50 are Ortho-Panchromatic
meaning that they have very little sensitivity to red. This means you need
to be carefull with red filters!! :-) After giving the film a try I've
decided to switch to it from Tmax-100.



wrote:
: Last night surfing I found Efke 25 and Rollei 25 , any word on these ?
: the Efke is cheap. $3.00 a roll cheap..."supposedly" it is not a
: "modern" film and supposedly has a high silver content.

: And while I know there is much heated debate (on the net) about silver
: content old stly vs new stlye film etc etc.

: What I am looking for is pictures like my grandfather shot, he isnt
: around anymore to ask but his photos were absolutley amazing, the B&W
: was so crisp with no grain visible

: Another question on what you and another were saying about developing,
: I apologize for my ABSOLUTE ignornace when you say a 1:1 dilution , I
: mixed the developer with 1 gal of water as the instructions said , do I
: then mix say 1 pint of that solution with 1 pint of water again ?

: Do I want a slower/longer developing process or a quicker one to avoid
: the graininess ?

: Also is it better to do this in a Tray or Tank for clarity ?

: Many Thanks

: Chris

: Jean-David Beyer wrote:
: John wrote:
: On 20 Mar 2006 20:16:49 -0800, wrote:
:
: I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
: and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
: care if its touchy in developing or shooting, no grain is good grain ?
:
: I have read Agfa 25 fits the bill, but also have read Agfa is Kaput....
:
: What else is there out there ? rollei 100 made by ? I have read that
: its shap, less of a "modern" film, but Im looking for something RAZOR,
: slow is fine....as sharp as possible is the requirmment...
:
: (Oh in 120)
:
: Thanks
:
: Chris
:
: You're asking for opinions so here's mine.
:
: TMX-100, EI 32, D-23 1:1, 12 min. 70F.
:
: I partly agree. If you use D-23, John is probably right, though I do not
: think D-23 is sharp enough, probably due to all that sulphite. For 4x5 and
: up it is probably acceptable. For 35mm, it may be too mushy for your taste.
:
: I think TMX (100) is the sharpest film for practical use in a hand-held
: camera. I prefer Xtol developer 1+1, and for that, an EI of 50 is perfectly
: good (the EI is affected somewhat by the developer used). I develop for the
: time Kodak recommend, using a diffusion enlarger. If you use a condenser
: enlarger, you will probably want to develop for a bit less time.
:
: --
: .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
: /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
: /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
: ^^-^^ 07:05:01 up 5 days, 8:16, 3 users, load average: 4.34, 4.21, 4.12


--




-------------------
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you

In article .com,
writes:

Last night surfing I found Efke 25 and Rollei 25 , any word on these ?
the Efke is cheap. $3.00 a roll cheap..."supposedly" it is not a
"modern" film and supposedly has a high silver content.

I've shot a few rolls of Efke. I liked the Efke 25 a lot, but the 100 was
too grainy for its speed, IMHO. I haven't shot more Efke simply because I
decided to standardize on Ilford Pan F+ (an ISO 50 film) as my low-speed
film.

What I am looking for is pictures like my grandfather shot, he isnt
around anymore to ask but his photos were absolutley amazing, the B&W
was so crisp with no grain visible

This gets into a lot of subjective issues, or at least issues that are
hard to articulate. What you liked about your grandfather's photos might
or might not be very dependent on the film used. If it was film-dependent,
then the Efke, as an old emulsion design, is likely to help you reproduce
that look. Foma films also have an old-fashioned look, although they're
faster (ISOs 100, 200, and 400) and grainier than the Efke 25 (but the
Foma 100 is much less grainy than the Efke 100). If you can find any,
Svema films (from Ukraine) also have an old-fashioned look, but I know of
no official source for this film in the US. Among Western and Japanese
film makers (Kodak, Ilford, Fuji), I'd avoid T-grain films (Kodak T-Max,
Ilford Delta, and Fuji Acros) and go for the older emulsions (Plus-X,
Tri-X, FP4+, HP5+), but even they are likely to have a more modern look
than the Efke, Foma, or Svema films will produce. OTOH, because you
mentioned lack of grain, slow T-grain films (Kodak T-Max 100, Ilford Delta
100, and Fuji Acros 100) are worth mentioning as being very fine-grained
films, which just goes to show how much depends on what you want --
T-grain films might or might not be appropriate.

Another question on what you and another were saying about developing,
I apologize for my ABSOLUTE ignornace when you say a 1:1 dilution , I
mixed the developer with 1 gal of water as the instructions said , do I
then mix say 1 pint of that solution with 1 pint of water again ?

You mixed what's called a "stock solution." With most powdered developers
(D-76, XTOL, etc.) you mix a stock solution, which you may then optionally
further dilute. A "1:1" or "1+1" dilution means to mix one part of the
stock solution with one part of water. For instance, to get 300ml of
working solution you'd mix 150ml of stock solution with 150ml of water.
It's often possible, and sometimes necessary, to dilute far more than
this. For instance, Rodinal (which is sold as a liquid) is typically
diluted at 1+25 to 1+100 -- one part of the bottled developer in 25 or 100
parts of water.

Do I want a slower/longer developing process or a quicker one to avoid
the graininess ?

With most developers, grain is reduced by using a less dilute developer,
which typically requires developing for a shorter period of time. You can
also adjust graininess by selecting the most appropriate developer. For
instance, Rodinal has a reputation for producing large grain, whereas XTOL
is generally considered a (relatively) fine-grained developer. (DO NOT use
XTOL with Svema film, though; I tried a couple of times and the results
were horrific. XTOL works nicely with Foma films, but I've never tried it
with Efke films.)

--
Rod Smith,
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

wrote:
I also had a question on film, I am looking to do some B&W landscapes
and close ups , I am looking for the SHARPEST possible film, I dont
care if its touchy in developing or shooting, no grain is good grain ?

I have read Agfa 25 fits the bill, but also have read Agfa is Kaput....

What else is there out there ? rollei 100 made by ? I have read that
its shap, less of a "modern" film, but Im looking for something RAZOR,
slow is fine....as sharp as possible is the requirmment...

(Oh in 120)

If you're coming into this for the first time and are so completely
obsessed with not seeing grain, you might try Ilford XP2 B&W film. It
is available in 120 rollfilm.

After you've done this a few times you will probably discover that
there's a lot more to a photograph than "no grain". But as you're new,
the XP2 is a very forgiving film in addition to not having the
traditional grain structure of a B&W negative.

"Razor sharp" and "no grain" are somewhat exclusive in my experience.
Grain is not all bad.

Tim.