A Photography forum. PhotoBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » PhotoBanter.com forum » General Photography » In The Darkroom
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Road ruts with Jobo



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old January 25th 04, 09:53 AM
Tom Phillips
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo



Brian Kosoff wrote:

Tom,
I've been an advertising still life photographer for 25 years. Getting
even strobe illumination on a background in a studio is photo 101. I do this
all the time. The backgrounds measure exactly even on both a minolta
incident flashmeter and a gossen reflective spot flashmeter. When I shoot
color chromes, it is perfect.


Well of course I don't know what your shooting or at what distance, i.e., I don't
know exactly what sort of "unevenness" you've experienced (uniform illumination
fall off or nonuniform density variations.) You may even get noticable
illumination fall off at the film plane. Nor would I predict that I would or
wouldn't experience your problem given the exact same conditions. I'm just saying
in my experience you don't generally get "perfect" even illumination (or density)
with b&w on a white background. I don't always get perfectly even illumination spot
metering a gray card, corner to corner.


As for your tip on "The whole point is to light the subject, not the
background" well that all depends on the subject doesn't it?


Yes, it does.

I can
assume from your comment that you have never shot on figure fashion with a
white background.


No. I don't shoot fashion. But I understand better what your issue is. I still
doubt it's Jobo related. In fact, if I had a background I needed very even
development for I'd probably choose rotary over just about any other method of
processing. In my experience the Jobo (I use a CPP2) gives very even development
consistently.



On 1/25/04 2:04 AM, in article , "Tom Phillips"
wrote:


I can't imagine shooting with strobe in a studio setting against any
background
(wall, floor, or light table) and getting "even" illumination on the
background.
The whole point is to light the subject, not the background, and if you try to
use flat lighting) no way is the light ever going to be 100% even on a
background. Not in my experience.


  #32  
Old January 25th 04, 09:56 AM
Tom Phillips
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo



LABFIX 2 wrote:

There are some inherent problems with some jobo reels when processing certain
formats. And some process' are more prone to having problems. ie; B&W

1. If you are processing sheet film, you must use Expert Drums for even
development.


Agreed.


2. If you are processing B&W, do not use a stop bath between dev and fix.


Why not?



3. Using distilled water for chemical mixing can solve a multitude of B&W
problems.
4. Follow JOBO processing recommendations. To the letter.
5. All of my customers sheet film problems have been solved by using Expert
Drums,LOADED PROPERLY, and chemicals diluted with distilled water.

I had a customer at a museum that constantly called me in to solve a processing
problem with sheet film. They shoot 4X5, B&W and e-6. They would have a soft
diffused line down the middle of sheet film.But not all the time. It would come
and go. I performed MANY test over several weeks to try and solve their
problem. At this point they absolutely HATED their JOBO processors ( a ATL-2500
and a ATL-2000) When ever I made test, the film was perfect. Then I had the
museum make a test. When I went to take the film out to photoflo and hang to
dry, I noticed that every other piece of film was loaded incorrectly. The film
that were loaded correctly were perfect. The films loaded incorrectly(Emulsion
toward outside of barrel) had a diffused plus density line. Problem solved!
But, they still hate their JOBO's , go figure.....

Some very well known photographers use JOBO processors exclusively, with
repeatable excellent results. I know how frustrating processing anamolies can
be. But I encourage anyone with proceesing problems, to carefully review the
JOBO processor installation procedures and processing procedures-TO THE LETTER.
This solves well over 70% of the problems.

It's the other 30% that keeps me awake at night...

Irving Harris
PLR-Photographic Inc.
JOBO Premier Servicing Dealer


  #33  
Old January 25th 04, 02:49 PM
Brian Kosoff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo

Jean-David,

Here is a copy of an email that I sent to Jobo. But first a few facts
not listed in the email as I thought they were so obvious as to not need
listing. I am using the 2500 series FILM drums, with the proper inner cores
and with 2502 reels for 120 film. For my 4x5 and 8x10 films, I have the
3005 and 3010 expert drums. Maybe you have not seen uneveness in your film
because you do not shoot on totally even, studio lit, white backgrounds.
I do not need to measure the uneveness on my densitometer as it is so
blatantly evident to the eye.

As for the "magnetic field" comments, they came from 2 different Jobo
techs and as far as I can tell were said in all seriousness. Here is my
email to Jobo:

I have processed everything from 35mm to 8x10² film, using methods

ranging from small tank (inversion), tray, large tank dip and dunk, large
tank nitrogen burst and now rotary processing. I can say with absolute
confidence that I have not gotten decent, even sheet film processing since I
switched from nitrogen burst to a Jobo rotary. I can also state that I have
not gotten even roll film development since I switched from small tank
inversion to a jobo rotary. I shoot landscapes and still lifes that have
large, extremely even, white backgrounds. The uneveness of development is
quite obvious in that environment.
I have experimented countless times in order to correct these

inadequacies. I have had a back and forth dialog with various members of
your technical assistance dept for several years, and have made alterations
to my methodology, as well as many experiments based on their advice. In
spite of all of these efforts, I still have, what your people describe as
³road ruts, on my roll film, and a combination of ³road ruts² and an effect
that can only be described as pouring a blob of developer onto the center of
un-agitated film and letting it sit there for a minute or two prior to
agitation. These results come from film exposed in my Rolleis, mamiyas and
Fujis. As well as readyloads, 4x5 and 8x10 sheet film in lisco holders, and
8x10 film exposed under the enlarger. I have been told by your tech people
that using kodak film with kodak developers is problematic. I have also
been told ( by 2 different techs) that I should turn the machine 90 degrees
to the earthıs magentic field!!!!
Upon the further advice of your technical assistance people I have

measured the rpm of the processor and have processed roll film at 75rpm, 65
rpm and 50 rpm. I have used distilled water in my developers, distilled
water or tap water for my presoak when d-76 was the dev, no pre soak when
x-tol was the dev. My drums are perfectly level when in operation. I have
used chemical quantities at the recommended amounts, and at more and less
than the recommended amounts. I never process more than 4 rolls of 120
film at a time in a 2563 tank, using 4 reels. I use as much as 1000ml of
developer to do this. I have used d-76 1:1 (1000ml for 4 *120ıs), Xtol
(straight 1000ml for 4 rolls 120), xtol 1:1 (1000ml for 4 rolls of 120). On
the advice of your tech people I do not use stop bath, but use 4 rinses
prior to a 5 minute fix in kodak rapid fix. I have done all of this with
Tmax100, Ilford fp-4plus and Delta 100. I have done all of this with sheet
film, in 300x series tanks. The only difference being that your tech people
recommended 50 rpm as the speed for the 300x expert drums. I use distilled
water for presoaks, for developer and for photo flo. The photo flo is done
after the film is removed from the reels or drum and placed in a glass
beaker filled with the photo flo working solution.
All of my tanks and reels are completely clean, no contaminants

anywhere, as all of my prints are for sale in galleries, I run an archivally
oriented darkroom. There are no, sources of light in my darkroom save the
red light emitted from the jobo itself and the green glow from some gralab
timers. The entrance to the darkroom consists of entering a light tight room
first, with a light trap door, and then passing through a second light trap
door into the darkroom.
As a means of protecting my negatives I have what is probably the most

experienced B&W digital lab in the country, Bow Haus, produce 8x10 tmax100
copy negatives for me. They too have a jobo, they too can not get evenly
processed 8x10 film with it. They have tried sending their film to outside
labs who also use jobo, and they too have had the same problems. They have
not been able to find a single lab that processes 8x10 properly in a jobo.
They now process my 8x10 copy negs by hand in a tray. That has given them
the best results so far.





On 1/24/04 10:24 PM, in article , "Jean-David Beyer"
wrote:


I am not saying that, because I know enough about making dogmatic
statements: the most important of which is that the more dogmatic I get,
the more likely I am to be in error. (Be careful: do not step in the dogma.)

What I am saying is the problems are _not inherent_ in the Jobo system,
since I, among others, get no road ruts (even if carefully measured),
and without heroic measures to ensure their absense.

So it must be something the others are doing. While it is possible that
all those people (however many that may be) are either very sloppy
processors using too little chemistry, people who are trying to develop
negatives in print drums, using old reels, _or something else_, but I
have no clue what the something else might be, and I doubt it can all be
attributed to sloppy processing.

I mistrust those who say to rotate the processor 90 degrees to change
the magnetic fields though. They are either joking, or egregeously
ignorant. It happens that my processor is usually lined up along an
East-West axis (roughly; i.e., parallel to White Street in Shrewsbury,
NJ, but I have used it at 90 degrees to that and it matters not).


  #34  
Old January 25th 04, 03:20 PM
Brian Kosoff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo

Tom,
I've been an advertising still life photographer for 25 years. Getting
even strobe illumination on a background in a studio is photo 101. I do this
all the time. The backgrounds measure exactly even on both a minolta
incident flashmeter and a gossen reflective spot flashmeter. When I shoot
color chromes, it is perfect.
As for your tip on "The whole point is to light the subject, not the
background" well that all depends on the subject doesn't it? When you shoot
clear glass, or clear liquids, the main light source IS the background. The
way that you can see a transparent object is by the way it disrupts the
light coming from the background. Any lights that you aim at a transparent
object merely goes through it and only provides specular highlights. I can
assume from your comment that you have never shot on figure fashion with a
white background.



On 1/25/04 2:04 AM, in article , "Tom Phillips"
wrote:



I can't imagine shooting with strobe in a studio setting against any
background
(wall, floor, or light table) and getting "even" illumination on the
background.
The whole point is to light the subject, not the background, and if you try to
use flat lighting) no way is the light ever going to be 100% even on a
background. Not in my experience.


  #35  
Old January 25th 04, 03:40 PM
LABFIX 2
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo

There are some inherent problems with some jobo reels when processing certain
formats. And some process' are more prone to having problems. ie; B&W

1. If you are processing sheet film, you must use Expert Drums for even
development.
2. If you are processing B&W, do not use a stop bath between dev and fix.
3. Using distilled water for chemical mixing can solve a multitude of B&W
problems.
4. Follow JOBO processing recommendations. To the letter.
5. All of my customers sheet film problems have been solved by using Expert
Drums,LOADED PROPERLY, and chemicals diluted with distilled water.

I had a customer at a museum that constantly called me in to solve a processing
problem with sheet film. They shoot 4X5, B&W and e-6. They would have a soft
diffused line down the middle of sheet film.But not all the time. It would come
and go. I performed MANY test over several weeks to try and solve their
problem. At this point they absolutely HATED their JOBO processors ( a ATL-2500
and a ATL-2000) When ever I made test, the film was perfect. Then I had the
museum make a test. When I went to take the film out to photoflo and hang to
dry, I noticed that every other piece of film was loaded incorrectly. The film
that were loaded correctly were perfect. The films loaded incorrectly(Emulsion
toward outside of barrel) had a diffused plus density line. Problem solved!
But, they still hate their JOBO's , go figure.....

Some very well known photographers use JOBO processors exclusively, with
repeatable excellent results. I know how frustrating processing anamolies can
be. But I encourage anyone with proceesing problems, to carefully review the
JOBO processor installation procedures and processing procedures-TO THE LETTER.
This solves well over 70% of the problems.

It's the other 30% that keeps me awake at night...

Irving Harris
PLR-Photographic Inc.
JOBO Premier Servicing Dealer

  #37  
Old January 25th 04, 04:58 PM
Ralf R. Radermacher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo

LABFIX 2 wrote:

Some very well known photographers use JOBO processors exclusively, with
repeatable excellent results. I know how frustrating processing anamolies can
be. But I encourage anyone with proceesing problems, to carefully review the
JOBO processor installation procedures and processing procedures-TO THE
LETTER.
This solves well over 70% of the problems.

It's the other 30% that keeps me awake at night...


Any suggestions in relation to the problem of uneven development along
the edges of 35 mm film with rotary C-41 processing?

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Apr. 11, 2003
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses
  #38  
Old January 25th 04, 05:15 PM
Brian Kosoff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo

Irving,

I am doing everything you indicate. I have posted an email I sent to
jobo, which I will again post below that explains the process I have
followed.

I am using the 2500 series FILM drums, with the proper inner cores
and with 2502 reels for 120 film. For my 4x5 and 8x10 films, I have the
3005 and 3010 expert drums.

I have processed everything from 35mm to 8x10² film, using methods

ranging from small tank (inversion), tray, large tank dip and dunk, large
tank nitrogen burst and now rotary processing. I can say with absolute
confidence that I have not gotten decent, even sheet film processing since I
switched from nitrogen burst to a Jobo rotary. I can also state that I have
not gotten even roll film development since I switched from small tank
inversion to a jobo rotary. I shoot landscapes and still lifes that have
large, extremely even, white backgrounds. The uneveness of development is
quite obvious in that environment.
I have experimented countless times in order to correct these

inadequacies. I have had a back and forth dialog with various members of
your technical assistance dept for several years, and have made alterations
to my methodology, as well as many experiments based on their advice. In
spite of all of these efforts, I still have, what your people describe as
³road ruts, on my roll film, and a combination of ³road ruts² and an effect
that can only be described as pouring a blob of developer onto the center of
un-agitated film and letting it sit there for a minute or two prior to
agitation. These results come from film exposed in my Rolleis, mamiyas and
Fujis. As well as readyloads, 4x5 and 8x10 sheet film in lisco holders, and
8x10 film exposed under the enlarger. I have been told by your tech people
that using kodak film with kodak developers is problematic. I have also
been told ( by 2 different techs) that I should turn the machine 90 degrees
to the earthıs magentic field!!!!
Upon the further advice of your technical assistance people I have

measured the rpm of the processor and have processed roll film at 75rpm, 65
rpm and 50 rpm. I have used distilled water in my developers, distilled
water or tap water for my presoak when d-76 was the dev, no pre soak when
x-tol was the dev. My drums are perfectly level when in operation. I have
used chemical quantities at the recommended amounts, and at more and less
than the recommended amounts. I never process more than 4 rolls of 120
film at a time in a 2563 tank, using 4 reels. I use as much as 1000ml of
developer to do this. I have used d-76 1:1 (1000ml for 4 *120ıs), Xtol
(straight 1000ml for 4 rolls 120), xtol 1:1 (1000ml for 4 rolls of 120). On
the advice of your tech people I do not use stop bath, but use 4 rinses
prior to a 5 minute fix in kodak rapid fix. I have done all of this with
Tmax100, Ilford fp-4plus and Delta 100. I have done all of this with sheet
film, in 300x series tanks. The only difference being that your tech people
recommended 50 rpm as the speed for the 300x expert drums. I use distilled
water for presoaks, for developer and for photo flo. The photo flo is done
after the film is removed from the reels or drum and placed in a glass
beaker filled with the photo flo working solution.
All of my tanks and reels are completely clean, no contaminants

anywhere, as all of my prints are for sale in galleries, I run an archivally
oriented darkroom. There are no, sources of light in my darkroom save the
red light emitted from the jobo itself and the green glow from some gralab
timers. The entrance to the darkroom consists of entering a light tight room
first, with a light trap door, and then passing through a second light trap
door into the darkroom.
As a means of protecting my negatives I have what is probably the most

experienced B&W digital lab in the country, Bow Haus, produce 8x10 tmax100
copy negatives for me. They too have a jobo, they too can not get evenly
processed 8x10 film with it. They have tried sending their film to outside
labs who also use jobo, and they too have had the same problems. They have
not been able to find a single lab that processes 8x10 properly in a jobo.
They now process my 8x10 copy negs by hand in a tray. That has given them
the best results so far.




On 1/25/04 9:40 AM, in article ,
"LABFIX 2" wrote:

There are some inherent problems with some jobo reels when processing certain
formats. And some process' are more prone to having problems. ie; B&W

1. If you are processing sheet film, you must use Expert Drums for even
development.
2. If you are processing B&W, do not use a stop bath between dev and fix.
3. Using distilled water for chemical mixing can solve a multitude of B&W
problems.
4. Follow JOBO processing recommendations. To the letter.
5. All of my customers sheet film problems have been solved by using Expert
Drums,LOADED PROPERLY, and chemicals diluted with distilled water.

I had a customer at a museum that constantly called me in to solve a
processing
problem with sheet film. They shoot 4X5, B&W and e-6. They would have a soft
diffused line down the middle of sheet film.But not all the time. It would
come
and go. I performed MANY test over several weeks to try and solve their
problem. At this point they absolutely HATED their JOBO processors ( a
ATL-2500
and a ATL-2000) When ever I made test, the film was perfect. Then I had the
museum make a test. When I went to take the film out to photoflo and hang to
dry, I noticed that every other piece of film was loaded incorrectly. The film
that were loaded correctly were perfect. The films loaded incorrectly(Emulsion
toward outside of barrel) had a diffused plus density line. Problem solved!
But, they still hate their JOBO's , go figure.....

Some very well known photographers use JOBO processors exclusively, with
repeatable excellent results. I know how frustrating processing anamolies can
be. But I encourage anyone with proceesing problems, to carefully review the
JOBO processor installation procedures and processing procedures-TO THE
LETTER.
This solves well over 70% of the problems.

It's the other 30% that keeps me awake at night...

Irving Harris
PLR-Photographic Inc.
JOBO Premier Servicing Dealer


  #39  
Old January 25th 04, 05:23 PM
Nicholas O. Lindan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Road ruts with Jobo

"Brian Kosoff" wrote

As for the "magnetic field" comments, they came from 2 different Jobo
techs and as far as I can tell were said in all seriousness.


The techs may even believe the magnetic field fix. After all, after
giving this advice, they have found that very few customers call back
- ergo, problem solved.

Call them back and tell them it is not the magnetic field, but that the
lift handle has to pointed at Sirius Minor.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright İ2004-2024 PhotoBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.