A Photography forum. PhotoBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » PhotoBanter.com forum » Digital Photography » Digital SLR Cameras
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

DSLR sales static, mirrorless heavy growth?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 22nd 12, 04:20 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Trevor[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 874
Default DSLR sales static, mirrorless heavy growth?


"Bruce" wrote in message
...
The Panasonic G5 also has very good dynamic range, approximately 12
stops between ISO 160-400. I think the OM-D is probably a stop
better, which will unfortunately overshadow the G5's excellent
performance.

Of course most m4/3 users will never obtain anywhere near these
figures because they don't shoot RAW. Shooting JPEGs yields a dynamic
range that is 1-2 stops less.



How is an 8 bit file "1-2 stops less" than a 12-13 bit one?

Trevor.


  #2  
Old July 22nd 12, 03:13 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default DSLR sales static, mirrorless heavy growth?

On 2012-07-21 23:20 , Trevor wrote:
"Bruce" wrote in message
...
The Panasonic G5 also has very good dynamic range, approximately 12
stops between ISO 160-400. I think the OM-D is probably a stop
better, which will unfortunately overshadow the G5's excellent
performance.

Of course most m4/3 users will never obtain anywhere near these
figures because they don't shoot RAW. Shooting JPEGs yields a dynamic
range that is 1-2 stops less.



How is an 8 bit file "1-2 stops less" than a 12-13 bit one?


A good JPG doesn't "lose" dynamic range because of the number of bits,
it is a log compressed format and as such can potentially represent the
full DR of an image - it does lose fine dynamic resolution, of course.

Where JPG does lose DR is when it maps to a colorspace. JPG's created
in camera are mapped to a colorspace (and most cameras provide at least
a few choices). Such colorspaces have comparatively narrower DR.



--
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
-Samuel Clemens.
  #3  
Old July 22nd 12, 03:39 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Floyd L. Davidson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,138
Default DSLR sales static, mirrorless heavy growth?

Alan Browne wrote:
On 2012-07-21 23:20 , Trevor wrote:
"Bruce" wrote in message
...
The Panasonic G5 also has very good dynamic range, approximately 12
stops between ISO 160-400. I think the OM-D is probably a stop
better, which will unfortunately overshadow the G5's excellent
performance.

Of course most m4/3 users will never obtain anywhere near these
figures because they don't shoot RAW. Shooting JPEGs yields a dynamic
range that is 1-2 stops less.



How is an 8 bit file "1-2 stops less" than a 12-13 bit one?


A good JPG doesn't "lose" dynamic range because of the number of bits,


Yes it does. A generic 8 bit gamma corrected image will
not have more than about 11 stops of dynamic range.
That is less than the typical 12 to 14 that cameras
today can produce.

Of course JPEG does, as you say, do other things. The
total effect of the JPEG format results in a dynamic
range of about 9.6 stops, by design.

it is a log compressed format and as such can potentially represent the
full DR of an image - it does lose fine dynamic resolution, of course.


I have no idea what "fine dynamic resolution" is
supposed to be. But an 8 bit gamma corrected image
cannot support the "full DR" that most cameras can now
produce.

It can support more DR than either a good monitor or a
good print can produce, which is the significant point!
It was purposely designed to have just more than enough
DR for that. A JPEG can be adjusted up or down by a
stop or less, because it has about that much more than a
typical display mechanism can show.

Where JPG does lose DR is when it maps to a colorspace. JPG's created
in camera are mapped to a colorspace (and most cameras provide at least
a few choices). Such colorspaces have comparatively narrower DR.


There's more to it than that, but that is a part of it.
Of course there are colorspaces that are wide enough,
but it makes no difference because JPEG can't actually
record them with fine tonal divisions and neither can a
monitor or a print.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
  #4  
Old July 23rd 12, 02:51 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Trevor[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 874
Default DSLR sales static, mirrorless heavy growth?


"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
How is an 8 bit file "1-2 stops less" than a 12-13 bit one?


A good JPG doesn't "lose" dynamic range because of the number of bits, it
is a log compressed format and as such can potentially represent the full
DR of an image - it does lose fine dynamic resolution, of course.


I'm unaware of any camera that can adjust curves before saving to jpeg, and
I sure as hell find it easier to do it at my leasure afterwards, than try to
do it with each shot as I take it, even if they did, so I don't have any use
for saving 8 bit jpeg only files in camera. They *WILL* lose DR.


Where JPG does lose DR is when it maps to a colorspace. JPG's created in
camera are mapped to a colorspace (and most cameras provide at least a few
choices). Such colorspaces have comparatively narrower DR.


Since many only map Jpeg to Srgb, that is indeed true.

Trevor.


  #5  
Old July 23rd 12, 02:56 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Trevor[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 874
Default DSLR sales static, mirrorless heavy growth?


"Floyd L. Davidson" wrote in message
...
How is an 8 bit file "1-2 stops less" than a 12-13 bit one?


A good JPG doesn't "lose" dynamic range because of the number of bits,


Yes it does. A generic 8 bit gamma corrected image will
not have more than about 11 stops of dynamic range.


But how many camera's can correct gamma to your choice before saving to
Jpeg? And why would you want to stuff around with gamma for every shot
whilst shooting rather than save raw and do it later?
Saving to Jpeg in camera is simply for those who don't know any beter, or
whose camera's can't do anything else IMO.

Trevor.


  #6  
Old July 23rd 12, 03:09 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default DSLR sales static, mirrorless heavy growth?

On 2012-07-22 21:51 , Trevor wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
How is an 8 bit file "1-2 stops less" than a 12-13 bit one?


A good JPG doesn't "lose" dynamic range because of the number of bits, it
is a log compressed format and as such can potentially represent the full
DR of an image - it does lose fine dynamic resolution, of course.


I'm unaware of any camera that can adjust curves before saving to jpeg, and


They have no choice but to do so.

1. There is no way for the camera to go from its internal represented
image (aka raw) to the displayed image on the camera display or to the
saved file without applying curves.

2. You don't select the curves in-camera, it's pre-programmed. My
camera has several modes of JPEG "saving" which of course changes the
curve (and other parameters of the save) for each flavour. (I ignore
these generally as I do everything from the raw).

3. Note that many cameras have camera-direct-to-print capability and so
the use of curves is not only unavoidable but absolutely necessary to
get a useful image.

I sure as hell find it easier to do it at my leasure afterwards, than try to
do it with each shot as I take it, even if they did, so I don't have any use
for saving 8 bit jpeg only files in camera. They *WILL* lose DR.


That's why most of us save in raw. But not all people do and so they
lose information. It's unavoidable. On the other hand there are a lot
of photographers who are satisfied with the in-camera result or at least
with the narrow range of change they can do with the in-camera JPG.
There's nothing 'wrong' with that if it meets their needs.

Where JPG does lose DR is when it maps to a colorspace. JPG's created in
camera are mapped to a colorspace (and most cameras provide at least a few
choices). Such colorspaces have comparatively narrower DR.


Since many only map Jpeg to Srgb, that is indeed true.


Most DSLR's now save in a variety of user selected RGB spaces.

Or leave it at default since you'll take care of all of it in raw
instead and how it saved in JPG is moot.

--
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
-Samuel Clemens.
  #7  
Old July 23rd 12, 03:10 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default DSLR sales static, mirrorless heavy growth?

On 2012-07-22 21:56 , Trevor wrote:
"Floyd L. Davidson" wrote in message
...
How is an 8 bit file "1-2 stops less" than a 12-13 bit one?

A good JPG doesn't "lose" dynamic range because of the number of bits,


Yes it does. A generic 8 bit gamma corrected image will
not have more than about 11 stops of dynamic range.


But how many camera's can correct gamma to your choice before saving to
Jpeg? And why would you want to stuff around with gamma for every shot
whilst shooting rather than save raw and do it later?
Saving to Jpeg in camera is simply for those who don't know any beter, or
whose camera's can't do anything else IMO.


See my other reply - but the main point is the curve is preset in
camera. You may have a few choices of RGB colorspace. But that's it.


--
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
-Samuel Clemens.
  #8  
Old July 23rd 12, 05:36 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Trevor[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 874
Default DSLR sales static, mirrorless heavy growth?


"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
A good JPG doesn't "lose" dynamic range because of the number of bits,
it
is a log compressed format and as such can potentially represent the
full
DR of an image - it does lose fine dynamic resolution, of course.


I'm unaware of any camera that can adjust curves before saving to jpeg,
and


They have no choice but to do so.
1. There is no way for the camera to go from its internal represented
image (aka raw) to the displayed image on the camera display or to the
saved file without applying curves.


What is displayed on the little LCD screen is not as important as what is
saved to file however.


2. You don't select the curves in-camera, it's pre-programmed.


Exactly, which *IS* the problem!


My camera has several modes of JPEG "saving" which of course changes the
curve (and other parameters of the save) for each flavour. (I ignore these
generally as I do everything from the raw).


Right, me too.


3. Note that many cameras have camera-direct-to-print capability and so
the use of curves is not only unavoidable but absolutely necessary to get
a useful image.


Sure, if that's what you are after. I have no use for that either.
Many people are happy with photo's from their iphones, and RAW files sure
aren't necessary (or posible) with those. Neither could you claim they had
"12-14 bits" dynamic range :-)



I sure as hell find it easier to do it at my leasure afterwards, than try
to
do it with each shot as I take it, even if they did, so I don't have any
use
for saving 8 bit jpeg only files in camera. They *WILL* lose DR.


That's why most of us save in raw. But not all people do and so they lose
information. It's unavoidable.


Exactly my point all along.


On the other hand there are a lot of photographers who are satisfied with
the in-camera result or at least with the narrow range of change they can
do with the in-camera JPG. There's nothing 'wrong' with that if it meets
their needs.


Sure, but claiming they don't lose dynamic range (or only 1 or 2 bits) is
what I objected to.


Where JPG does lose DR is when it maps to a colorspace. JPG's created
in
camera are mapped to a colorspace (and most cameras provide at least a
few
choices). Such colorspaces have comparatively narrower DR.


Since many only map Jpeg to Srgb, that is indeed true.


Most DSLR's now save in a variety of user selected RGB spaces.


Can't see much point in non standard jpegs myself. I only use RAW for my
use, and use Srgb when converting to jpeg for the internet, because anything
else is pointless.


Or leave it at default since you'll take care of all of it in raw instead
and how it saved in JPG is moot.


Not moot when I save it as Jpeg in PS, and my camera never does anyway. Not
once in over ten years have I found it necessary to ever save as Jpeg in a
DSLR. And some can now convert files from RAW to Jpeg in camera if I ever
do. :-)
Perhaps if I ever have a need to shoot a huge burst rate/length that is
beyond my RAW capabilities, but can be met with Jpeg I would use it.
Otherwise throwing away up to half the camera's performance holds no appeal
for me.

Trevor.


  #9  
Old July 23rd 12, 05:39 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Trevor[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 874
Default DSLR sales static, mirrorless heavy growth?


"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
How is an 8 bit file "1-2 stops less" than a 12-13 bit one?

A good JPG doesn't "lose" dynamic range because of the number of bits,

Yes it does. A generic 8 bit gamma corrected image will
not have more than about 11 stops of dynamic range.


But how many camera's can correct gamma to your choice before saving to
Jpeg? And why would you want to stuff around with gamma for every shot
whilst shooting rather than save raw and do it later?
Saving to Jpeg in camera is simply for those who don't know any beter, or
whose camera's can't do anything else IMO.


See my other reply - but the main point is the curve is preset in camera.


Exactly, and a one size fits all, can often mean one size fits nothing.

Trevor.


  #10  
Old July 23rd 12, 11:27 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Wolfgang Weisselberg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,285
Default DSLR sales static, mirrorless heavy growth?

Trevor wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message

[...]

I'm unaware of any camera that can adjust curves before saving to jpeg,


Oh, so you never heard of a camera where you could set "contrast"?
Or (Canon) Picture Styles?

That's adjusting the curves before saving to JPEG.

and
I sure as hell find it easier to do it at my leasure afterwards, than try to
do it with each shot as I take it, even if they did, so I don't have any use
for saving 8 bit jpeg only files in camera. They *WILL* lose DR.


Only if the curve is too steep.

Oh, BTW, how much DR does your output medium (screen, print,
....) have? That's where you loose DR!


Where JPG does lose DR is when it maps to a colorspace. JPG's created in
camera are mapped to a colorspace (and most cameras provide at least a few
choices). Such colorspaces have comparatively narrower DR.


Since many only map Jpeg to Srgb, that is indeed true.


You'll find that most DSLRs also map to Adobe RGB (1998) and
often indicate that with a leading _ in the filename.

-Wolfgang
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Digital camera sales growth to slow Alan Browne Digital Photography 4 February 12th 05 05:47 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 PhotoBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.