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#1
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
On Aug 23, 2018, RichA wrote
(in ): All the potential ship-jumpers will no longer have to. Plus, all those Nikon lenses and thousands of others once aftermarket adapters hit. I think I will skip either one of these. Nikon missed the MILC target with these two cameras, but it is a start, so perhaps in 4-5 years they will have a good MILC which can replace the D850, 0r even the D500, but not yet. I don’t think that Nikon has quite got the concept or mirrorless. Nikon fans will probably state otherwise, but most of those do not, or have not used MILCs. Other than those Nikon, and some other brand shooters with chronic GAS I don’t believe that there will be too many Sony, or other ship jumpers. Now we wait to see what Canon will introduce to the World of FF MILC. Personally as a hobbyist/enthusiast photographer I will be sticking with APS-C rather than going to the expense of a move to FF. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#2
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
In article .com,
Savageduck wrote: RichA: All the potential ship-jumpers will no longer have to. Plus, all those Nikon lenses and thousands of others once aftermarket adapters hit. I think I will skip either one of these. Nikon missed the MILC target with these two cameras, but it is a start, so perhaps in 4-5 years they will have a good MILC which can replace the D850 In what way did they miss the mark, though? Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher frame rate. The unknowns, at least to me, is focusing speed. I haven't watched any reviews yet. As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per battery charge. Whether it's a worthy competitor to the A7R III is another story. -- Sandman |
#3
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
On Aug 24, 2018, Sandman wrote
(in ): In iganews.com, Savageduck wrote: RichA: All the potential ship-jumpers will no longer have to. Plus, all those Nikon lenses and thousands of others once aftermarket adapters hit. I think I will skip either one of these. Nikon missed the MILC target with these two cameras, but it is a start, so perhaps in 4-5 years they will have a good MILC which can replace the D850 In what way did they miss the mark, though? Start with the single memory slot. Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher frame rate. ....er, not too much smaller, especially with the fat “S" glass designed for the Zs. In a smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs have nothing to fear from the FF MILCs. The unknowns, at least to me, is focusing speed. I haven't watched any reviews yet. From what I have read the AF does not match up to the D850, D5, or D500, and Nikon isn’t going to erode sales of those cameras with either the Z6, or Z7. They are going to try to get a piece of the Sony FF pie, and they are going to pick up sales fron Nikon FF DSLR owners who have been reluctant to move into the MILC world. As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per battery charge. ....and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a pro FF MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with all specs, including battery life. For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced prosumer MILCs with a limited native lens availability (admitedly there is the promise of the “S” lens roadmap). Using F mount lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a reasonably compact system into an unwieldly kludge. even with the adaptor none of their older screw focus lenses will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC system they should consider the Sony offerings. For MF they should look to the Fujifilm GFX-50S, and the soon to be released GFX-100S. Whether it's a worthy competitor to the A7R III is another story. For now it seems the Sony has the edge. However, there are going to be a whole bunch of Nikon FF shooters with legacy F mount glass who are going to be tempted. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#4
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
On Aug 24, 2018, Savageduck wrote
(in iganews.com): On Aug 24, 2018, Sandman wrote (in ): In iganews.com, Savageduck wrote: RichA: All the potential ship-jumpers will no longer have to. Plus, all those Nikon lenses and thousands of others once aftermarket adapters hit. I think I will skip either one of these. Nikon missed the MILC target with these two cameras, but it is a start, so perhaps in 4-5 years they will have a good MILC which can replace the D850 In what way did they miss the mark, though? Start with the single memory slot. Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher frame rate. ...er, not too much smaller, especially with the fat “S" glass designed for the Zs. In a smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs have nothing to fear from the FF MILCs. The unknowns, at least to me, is focusing speed. I haven't watched any reviews yet. From what I have read the AF does not match up to the D850, D5, or D500, and Nikon isn’t going to erode sales of those cameras with either the Z6, or Z7. They are going to try to get a piece of the Sony FF pie, and they are going to pick up sales fron Nikon FF DSLR owners who have been reluctant to move into the MILC world. As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per battery charge. ...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a pro FF MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with all specs, including battery life. For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced prosumer MILCs with a limited native lens availability (admitedly there is the promise of the “S” lens roadmap). Using F mount lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a reasonably compact system into an unwieldly kludge. even with the adaptor none of their older screw focus lenses will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC system they should consider the Sony offerings. For MF they should look to the Fujifilm GFX-50S, and the soon to be released GFX-100S. Whether it's a worthy competitor to the A7R III is another story. For now it seems the Sony has the edge. However, there are going to be a whole bunch of Nikon FF shooters with legacy F mount glass who are going to be tempted. There is a major issue that Nikon hasn’t addressed. They have a massive APS-C DSLR user base, all of whom could be tempted by a Nikon APS-C MILC. These folks have been effectively kicked to the curb, and abandoned by Nikon. These are shooters who are not tempted by any sort of FF camera, and are likely to jump ship to Olympus, Panasonic, or Fujifilm, perhaps even Sony. We wait to see what Canon delivers. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#5
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
In article .com,
Savageduck says... There is a major issue that Nikon hasn?t addressed. They have a massive APS-C DSLR user base, all of whom could be tempted by a Nikon APS-C MILC. These folks have been effectively kicked to the curb, and abandoned by Nikon. These are shooters who are not tempted by any sort of FF camera, and are likely to jump ship to Olympus, Panasonic, or Fujifilm, perhaps even Sony. Perhaps Nikon don't have the resources to launch or be successful with two different mirrorless systems (one APS-C, one FF). -- Alfred Molon Olympus E-series DSLRs and micro 4/3 forum at https://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/ https://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site |
#6
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
On 8/24/2018 3:47 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On Aug 24, 2018, Sandman wrote (in ): In iganews.com, Savageduck wrote: RichA: All the potential ship-jumpers will no longer have to. Plus, all those Nikon lenses and thousands of others once aftermarket adapters hit. I think I will skip either one of these. Nikon missed the MILC target with these two cameras, but it is a start, so perhaps in 4-5 years they will have a good MILC which can replace the D850 In what way did they miss the mark, though? Start with the single memory slot. Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher frame rate. ...er, not too much smaller, especially with the fat “S" glass designed for the Zs. In a smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs have nothing to fear from the FF MILCs. The unknowns, at least to me, is focusing speed. I haven't watched any reviews yet. From what I have read the AF does not match up to the D850, D5, or D500, and Nikon isn’t going to erode sales of those cameras with either the Z6, or Z7. They are going to try to get a piece of the Sony FF pie, and they are going to pick up sales fron Nikon FF DSLR owners who have been reluctant to move into the MILC world. As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per battery charge. ...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a pro FF MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with all specs, including battery life. For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced prosumer MILCs with a limited native lens availability (admitedly there is the promise of the “S” lens roadmap). Using F mount lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a reasonably compact system into an unwieldly kludge. even with the adaptor none of their older screw focus lenses will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC system they should consider the Sony offerings. For MF they should look to the Fujifilm GFX-50S, and the soon to be released GFX-100S. Whether it's a worthy competitor to the A7R III is another story. For now it seems the Sony has the edge. However, there are going to be a whole bunch of Nikon FF shooters with legacy F mount glass who are going to be tempted. Yup. I had been thinking of trading in my 800 for the 850. I have a personal preference for FF. It gives the the type of WA shots I like, and allows me to do image mining. I also like the concept of three axis stabilization. So far the biggest drawback is the low number of shots per battery. I want to play with one for about a day before i decide. -- PeterN |
#7
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
In article .com,
Savageduck wrote: Sandman: In what way did they miss the mark, though? Start with the single memory slot. Yeah, that seems to be the only valid complaint. Sandman: Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher frame rate. ...er, not too much smaller Huh? It's a lot smaller. It's by far the smallest FF digital camera Nikon has ever made. , especially with the fat “S" glass designed for the Zs. In a smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs have nothing to fear from the FF MILCs. But you compared it to the D850, not to lesser smaller cameras. Sandman: The unknowns, at least to me, is focusing speed. I haven't watched any reviews yet. From what I have read the AF does not match up to the D850, D5, or D500, and Nikon isn’t going to erode sales of those cameras with either the Z6, or Z7. They are going to try to get a piece of the Sony FF pie, and they are going to pick up sales fron Nikon FF DSLR owners who have been reluctant to move into the MILC world. Seeing how Sony A7 focusing speed trounces Nikon today, if they want to compete, that's an important factor. Sandman: As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per battery charge. ...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a pro FF MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with all specs, including battery life. Nikon is trying to compete with the A7, not their own DSLR's. A non- insignificant part of the photographing world is moving to mirrorless, and Nikon is missing out. In doing so, their target is not to compete with their own top of the line DSLR's but with the guys that keep snatching up their customers. For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced prosumer MILCs with a limited native lens availability (admitedly there is the promise of the “S” lens roadmap). Indeed, which is exactly where Sony was a bunch of years ago, with the A7. Using F mount lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a reasonably compact system into an unwieldly kludge. Huh? You're not making much sense. The adaptor increases the flange distance, i.e. it adds bulk that is already present in all current F-mount Nikon cameras to be backwards compatible. A Z6 plus the adapter would be as "unwieldy" as a D7100. even with the adaptor none of their older screw focus lenses will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC system they should consider the Sony offerings. That's already what they are doing. Sony is the only player, and they're doing a marvellous job, with amazing offerings for prosumer up to pro. That's the piece of the pie that Nikon is losing and is wanting to get back. Backwards compatibility with the F-mount is pretty crucial to that, seeing how Nikon has a hundred times more and better glass than Sony could ever dream of. Sandman: Whether it's a worthy competitor to the A7R III is another story. For now it seems the Sony has the edge. However, there are going to be a whole bunch of Nikon FF shooters with legacy F mount glass who are going to be tempted. I bet. -- Sandman |
#8
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
On Aug 26, 2018, Sandman wrote
(in ): In iganews.com, Savageduck wrote: Sandman: In what way did they miss the mark, though? Start with the single memory slot. Yeah, that seems to be the only valid complaint. That and a few AF issues, such as no eye-AF, inconsistant AF-C tracking to name a few other complaints. Sandman: Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher frame rate. ...er, not too much smaller Huh? It's a lot smaller. It's by far the smallest FF digital camera Nikon has ever made. So Nikon is making in-house comparisons. , especially with the fat “S" glass designed for the Zs. In a smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs have nothing to fear from the FF MILCs. But you compared it to the D850, not to lesser smaller cameras. Of course I compared it D850. It uses the same sensor, and price point so the comparison is fair. However, if I were in the market for a Nikon FF camera today I would not be impressed with the Z7, and I would buy a D850. Then one wonders what Nikon has in mind for all those D7100, D7200, D7500, and D500 shooters who are waiting for a Nikon APS-C MILC. Sandman: The unknowns, at least to me, is focusing speed. I haven't watched any reviews yet. From what I have read the AF does not match up to the D850, D5, or D500, and Nikon isn’t going to erode sales of those cameras with either the Z6, or Z7. They are going to try to get a piece of the Sony FF pie, and they are going to pick up sales fron Nikon FF DSLR owners who have been reluctant to move into the MILC world. Seeing how Sony A7 focusing speed trounces Nikon today, if they want to compete, that's an important factor. Yup! Sandman: As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per battery charge. ...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a pro FF MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with all specs, including battery life. Nikon is trying to compete with the A7, not their own DSLR's. A non- insignificant part of the photographing world is moving to mirrorless, and Nikon is missing out. In doing so, their target is not to compete with their own top of the line DSLR's but with the guys that keep snatching up their customers. Unfortunately they are positioning themselves to loose a large share of the consumer APS-C DSLR market they own, to the other mirrorless options. For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced prosumer MILCs with a limited native lens availability (admitedly there is the promise of the “S” lens roadmap). Indeed, which is exactly where Sony was a bunch of years ago, with the A7. ....and now Nikon is still a bunch of years behind Sony, and the others. Using F mount lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a reasonably compact system into an unwieldly kludge. Huh? You're not making much sense. The adaptor increases the flange distance, i.e. it adds bulk that is already present in all current F-mount Nikon cameras to be backwards compatible. A Z6 plus the adapter would be as "unwieldy" as a D7100. I would reserve judgement on that, the D7xxx family are quite lightweight DSLRs. even with the adaptor none of their older screw focus lenses will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC system they should consider the Sony offerings. That's already what they are doing. Sony is the only player, and they're doing a marvellous job, with amazing offerings for prosumer up to pro. That's the piece of the pie that Nikon is losing and is wanting to get back. Backwards compatibility with the F-mount is pretty crucial to that, seeing how Nikon has a hundred times more and better glass than Sony could ever dream of. Agreed. However, as promising as the Z-cameras are from the release hype, they have a long way to go to catch up to Sony, and they might well have damaged their APS-C market share. Sandman: Whether it's a worthy competitor to the A7R III is another story. For now it seems the Sony has the edge. However, there are going to be a whole bunch of Nikon FF shooters with legacy F mount glass who are going to be tempted. I bet. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#9
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
On Aug 26, 2018, Savageduck wrote
(in iganews.com): On Aug 26, 2018, Sandman wrote (in ): In iganews.com, Savageduck wrote: Sandman: In what way did they miss the mark, though? Start with the single memory slot. Yeah, that seems to be the only valid complaint. That and a few AF issues, such as no eye-AF, inconsistant AF-C tracking to name a few other complaints. Sandman: Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher frame rate. ...er, not too much smaller Huh? It's a lot smaller. It's by far the smallest FF digital camera Nikon has ever made. So Nikon is making in-house comparisons. , especially with the fat “S" glass designed for the Zs. In a smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs have nothing to fear from the FF MILCs. But you compared it to the D850, not to lesser smaller cameras. Of course I compared it D850. It uses the same sensor, and price point so the comparison is fair. However, if I were in the market for a Nikon FF camera today I would not be impressed with the Z7, and I would buy a D850. Then one wonders what Nikon has in mind for all those D7100, D7200, D7500, and D500 shooters who are waiting for a Nikon APS-C MILC. Sandman: The unknowns, at least to me, is focusing speed. I haven't watched any reviews yet. From what I have read the AF does not match up to the D850, D5, or D500, and Nikon isn’t going to erode sales of those cameras with either the Z6, or Z7. They are going to try to get a piece of the Sony FF pie, and they are going to pick up sales fron Nikon FF DSLR owners who have been reluctant to move into the MILC world. Seeing how Sony A7 focusing speed trounces Nikon today, if they want to compete, that's an important factor. Yup! Sandman: As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per battery charge. ...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a pro FF MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with all specs, including battery life. Nikon is trying to compete with the A7, not their own DSLR's. A non- insignificant part of the photographing world is moving to mirrorless, and Nikon is missing out. In doing so, their target is not to compete with their own top of the line DSLR's but with the guys that keep snatching up their customers. Unfortunately they are positioning themselves to loose a large share of the consumer APS-C DSLR market they own, to the other mirrorless options. For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced prosumer MILCs with a limited native lens availability (admitedly there is the promise of the “S” lens roadmap). Indeed, which is exactly where Sony was a bunch of years ago, with the A7. ...and now Nikon is still a bunch of years behind Sony, and the others. Using F mount lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a reasonably compact system into an unwieldly kludge. Huh? You're not making much sense. The adaptor increases the flange distance, i.e. it adds bulk that is already present in all current F-mount Nikon cameras to be backwards compatible. A Z6 plus the adapter would be as "unwieldy" as a D7100. I would reserve judgement on that, the D7xxx family are quite lightweight DSLRs. even with the adaptor none of their older screw focus lenses will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC system they should consider the Sony offerings. That's already what they are doing. Sony is the only player, and they're doing a marvellous job, with amazing offerings for prosumer up to pro. That's the piece of the pie that Nikon is losing and is wanting to get back. Backwards compatibility with the F-mount is pretty crucial to that, seeing how Nikon has a hundred times more and better glass than Sony could ever dream of. Agreed. However, as promising as the Z-cameras are from the release hype, they have a long way to go to catch up to Sony, and they might well have damaged their APS-C market share. Sandman: Whether it's a worthy competitor to the A7R III is another story. For now it seems the Sony has the edge. However, there are going to be a whole bunch of Nikon FF shooters with legacy F mount glass who are going to be tempted. I bet. Here is Thom Hogan’s take on the Nikon V6, and V7. http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/nikon-re-enters-mirrorless.html -- Regards, Savageduck |
#10
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
In article .com,
Savageduck wrote: In what way did they miss the mark, though? Savageduck: Start with the single memory slot. Sandman: Yeah, that seems to be the only valid complaint. That and a few AF issues, such as no eye-AF Neither does the D850 or D500, remember? Sandman: Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher frame rate. Savageduck: ...er, not too much smaller Sandman: Huh? It's a lot smaller. It's by far the smallest FF digital camera Nikon has ever made. So Nikon is making in-house comparisons. No, you a Savageduck Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot. 08/24/2018 .com "I think I will skip either one of these. Nikon missed the MILC target with these two cameras, but it is a start, so perhaps in 4-5 years they will have a good MILC which can replace the D850, 0r even the D500, but not yet." That's what you said, to which I asked "in what way did they miss the mark?" above. You're the one that comparing it to the D850 and D500. Savageduck: , especially with the fat “S" glass designed for the Zs. In a smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs have nothing to fear from the FF MILCs. Sandman: But you compared it to the D850, not to lesser smaller cameras. Of course I compared it D850. It uses the same sensor, and price point so the comparison is fair. However, if I were in the market for a Nikon FF camera today I would not be impressed with the Z7, and I would buy a D850. Cool, more power to you Then one wonders what Nikon has in mind for all those D7100, D7200, D7500, and D500 shooters who are waiting for a Nikon APS-C MILC. Same as Sony. Grab the upper market first, then move down with innovations. They're just five years late, but they do have an edge when it comes to lenses, so... It's hard to say. If/when the Z line becomes successful, you'll see Z60, Z600 and Z3000 or whatever for consumer versions as well, I bet. This is pretty much how cameras and most tech products work. You create a top of the line products first and move down from there. You see it in the Sony A7, Tesla Model S, iPod, iPhone and so on. You have to go in and get the margins first, in order to trickle down the technology when it makes money. Sandman: As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per battery charge. Savageduck: ...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a pro FF MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with all specs, including battery life. Sandman: Nikon is trying to compete with the A7, not their own DSLR's. A non- insignificant part of the photographing world is moving to mirrorless, and Nikon is missing out. In doing so, their target is not to compete with their own top of the line DSLR's but with the guys that keep snatching up their customers. Unfortunately they are positioning themselves to loose a large share of the consumer APS-C DSLR market they own, to the other mirrorless options. Of course, since they don't have a APS-C offering yet. See above. They are late to this party, but this is the only way to do it. The prosumer/pro market is where the money is. The consumer market is where everyone fights with super thin margins. Savageduck: For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced prosumer MILCs with a limited native lens availability (admitedly there is the promise of the “S” lens roadmap). Sandman: Indeed, which is exactly where Sony was a bunch of years ago, with the A7. ...and now Nikon is still a bunch of years behind Sony, and the others. There are no others. It's only Sony. There are only others when it comes to APS-C. And there is very little money there. I am guessing, since I don't actually have much data, that there aren't very many camera makes that are making a lot of money from the consumer APS-C mirrorless market. The margins are usually too small. The only reason there *is* a consumer camera market is that most camera makers are hoping they will upgrade to their better cameras where they make more money. Some camera makers make only APS-C, but I believe they're still used to low margins. Even for Fujifilm, cameras is a very small part of their overall business. Savageduck: Using F mount lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a reasonably compact system into an unwieldly kludge. Sandman: Huh? You're not making much sense. The adaptor increases the flange distance, i.e. it adds bulk that is already present in all current F-mount Nikon cameras to be backwards compatible. A Z6 plus the adapter would be as "unwieldy" as a D7100. I would reserve judgement on that, the D7xxx family are quite lightweight DSLRs. They are, but the difference is pretty big: https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-camera/nikon-d7100-vs-nikon-z6 Savageduck: even with the adaptor none of their older screw focus lenses will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC system they should consider the Sony offerings. Sandman: That's already what they are doing. Sony is the only player, and they're doing a marvellous job, with amazing offerings for prosumer up to pro. That's the piece of the pie that Nikon is losing and is wanting to get back. Backwards compatibility with the F-mount is pretty crucial to that, seeing how Nikon has a hundred times more and better glass than Sony could ever dream of. Agreed. However, as promising as the Z-cameras are from the release hype, they have a long way to go to catch up to Sony, and they might well have damaged their APS-C market share. No, the Z6 and Z7 haven't or can't damage their APS-C market share. People that have or were considering Nikon's APS-C cameras have either bought a APS-S Nikon or a APS-C camera from someone else. Nikon will - depending on how the Z series works out - release mirrorless APS-C in the future. But the release of the Z6 and Z7 haven't changed anything for these customers today. While the A6XXX Sony series seem to be doing well, I don't think it's doing as well as the Nikon/Canon APS-C cameras. The place where Sony is doing really well is in FF mirrorless, i.e the A7/9 series. Or rather the A7 series, I don't know if the A9 have been an enormous success. -- Sandman |
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