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Nagging questions



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 2nd 09, 08:20 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Eric Miller
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 181
Default Nagging questions

Just some random, mostly resolution-related questions. I fully accept
that the questions themselves may be misguided, so feel free to interpret.

Chip size, noise and other stuff.

All other things being equal, will a larger sensor have more noise? I
ask this for two, interrelated reasons, the first of which is that I see
discussions of the end of the Megapixel wars for APS-C sensor due to the
loss of image quality with higher pixel pitch. The second is that I have
recently seen some pretty good images from a Canon G10 which has a much
higher pixel pitch albeit on a much smaller chip.

Actual resolution increase with higher pixel pitch.

It certainly seems that the G10 has much higher resolution than my 5D
(but certainly not better image quality) considering the pixel
pitch/sensor size. What actual resolution increase could I expect with
that kind of pixel pitch on an APS-C or FF/35mm sensor? Is there some
formula that describes the diminishing resolution gains due to added noise?

Size of pixel/photosite where resolution increase would not equal
additional pixels.

Is there a certain way in which noise is related to the size of the
individual photosite? Or is that dependent upon other factors that can
be addressed through better engineering/manufacture of the sensor?

Conversion of Bayer pattern only affect colors of image.

Finally, do the algorithms used to convert the output of a Bayer-type
sensor independently process luminance and color information? I guess
that would be, does the algorithm produce color and luminance
information independently of each other such that a grayscale value
could be produced for each pixel without using information collected at
more than one photosite?

Eric Miller
www.dyesscreek.com
  #2  
Old December 2nd 09, 08:32 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Alan Browne
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Posts: 12,640
Default Nagging questions

Eric Miller wrote:
Just some random, mostly resolution-related questions. I fully accept
that the questions themselves may be misguided, so feel free to interpret.

Chip size, noise and other stuff.

All other things being equal, will a larger sensor have more noise? I
ask this for two, interrelated reasons, the first of which is that I see
discussions of the end of the Megapixel wars for APS-C sensor due to the
loss of image quality with higher pixel pitch. The second is that I have
recently seen some pretty good images from a Canon G10 which has a much
higher pixel pitch albeit on a much smaller chip.


Basically it is the sensor "site size" that has the most affect on
signal but noise does not vary that much. Of course with less signal
the noise becomes more important.

Canon has developed remarkable noise reduction s/w as well, so they can
make less than optimal hardware look very good.


Actual resolution increase with higher pixel pitch.


Lens and anti-alias filter limited.

It certainly seems that the G10 has much higher resolution than my 5D
(but certainly not better image quality) considering the pixel
pitch/sensor size. What actual resolution increase could I expect with
that kind of pixel pitch on an APS-C or FF/35mm sensor? Is there some
formula that describes the diminishing resolution gains due to added noise?

Size of pixel/photosite where resolution increase would not equal
additional pixels.

Is there a certain way in which noise is related to the size of the
individual photosite? Or is that dependent upon other factors that can
be addressed through better engineering/manufacture of the sensor?


Yes. Roughly speaking noise does not change much with site size; but
signal goes up as the site size increases thereby increasing S/N.


Conversion of Bayer pattern only affect colors of image.

Finally, do the algorithms used to convert the output of a Bayer-type
sensor independently process luminance and color information? I guess
that would be, does the algorithm produce color and luminance
information independently of each other such that a grayscale value
could be produced for each pixel without using information collected at
more than one photosite?


Good question.

  #3  
Old December 2nd 09, 10:02 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Nagging questions

In article , Eric Miller
wrote:

Just some random, mostly resolution-related questions. I fully accept
that the questions themselves may be misguided, so feel free to interpret.

Chip size, noise and other stuff.

All other things being equal, will a larger sensor have more noise?


no. for a given sensor technology and pixel count, a larger sensor will
have larger pixels, and therefore have less noise.

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedeta...formance.summa
ry/

I ask this for two, interrelated reasons, the first of which is that I see
discussions of the end of the Megapixel wars for APS-C sensor due to the
loss of image quality with higher pixel pitch. The second is that I have
recently seen some pretty good images from a Canon G10 which has a much
higher pixel pitch albeit on a much smaller chip.


Actual resolution increase with higher pixel pitch.

It certainly seems that the G10 has much higher resolution than my 5D
(but certainly not better image quality) considering the pixel
pitch/sensor size. What actual resolution increase could I expect with
that kind of pixel pitch on an APS-C or FF/35mm sensor? Is there some
formula that describes the diminishing resolution gains due to added noise?


resolution depends on a lot of factors, including the sensor, the lens,
how accurately you focus, etc. you can have the best sensor in the
world but if you slap a cheapo lens on the camera, it won't matter
much.

if you want to know how a g10 compares with a 5d, you need to test them
both. dpreview has done that, and the g10 will have slightly higher
resolution, but a lot more noise.

Size of pixel/photosite where resolution increase would not equal
additional pixels.

Is there a certain way in which noise is related to the size of the
individual photosite? Or is that dependent upon other factors that can
be addressed through better engineering/manufacture of the sensor?


the bigger the better, but better sensor technology counts too. a small
sensor of today might be better than a large sensor of a few years ago,
but you can always make a larger sensor with the latest technology so
it's moot.

Conversion of Bayer pattern only affect colors of image.

Finally, do the algorithms used to convert the output of a Bayer-type
sensor independently process luminance and color information? I guess
that would be, does the algorithm produce color and luminance
information independently of each other such that a grayscale value
could be produced for each pixel without using information collected at
more than one photosite?


there are many many ways to demosaic bayer images, and you will need
more than one photosite no matter what you do.
  #4  
Old December 2nd 09, 10:34 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
NameHere
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 250
Default Nagging questions

On Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:02:21 -0500, nospam wrote:

In article , Eric Miller
wrote:

Just some random, mostly resolution-related questions. I fully accept
that the questions themselves may be misguided, so feel free to interpret.

Chip size, noise and other stuff.

All other things being equal, will a larger sensor have more noise?


no. for a given sensor technology and pixel count, a larger sensor will
have larger pixels, and therefore have less noise.

http://www.spamsite.com/imagedetail/...formance.summa
ry/


I guess that's why this 1/2.5" sized sensor has more dynamic range than
most APS-C sized DSLR sensors which only have 7-8 EV stops.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/...7ceaf3a1_o.jpg

You're a pretend-photographer troll, one that loves nothing better than to
spout biased misinformation posted by another DSLR-Troll who posted tests
on his website to justify why he wasted all that money on his DSLR gear.
I.e. Clarkblindness.com

  #5  
Old December 2nd 09, 10:53 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Nagging questions

In article , NameHere
wrote:

I guess that's why this 1/2.5" sized sensor has more dynamic range than
most APS-C sized DSLR sensors which only have 7-8 EV stops.


most dslr sensors are capable of over 12 stops, limited by the d/a
converter.
  #6  
Old December 4th 09, 08:41 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Peter Chant[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 82
Default Nagging questions

nospam wrote:


most dslr sensors are capable of over 12 stops, limited by the d/a
converter.


Is this the limit? Then why did Fuji have their fancy "super" sensor with
differing sizes of sites? I wonder why someone does not come out with a 16
bit a/d chip?

Pete

--
http://www.petezilla.co.uk

  #7  
Old December 4th 09, 11:32 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,alt.kook.lionel-lauer
Bob Larter is Lionel Lauer - Look it up.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 104
Default Nagging questions

On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:30:06 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:

NameHere wrote:
On Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:02:21 -0500, nospam wrote:

In article , Eric Miller
wrote:

Just some random, mostly resolution-related questions. I fully accept
that the questions themselves may be misguided, so feel free to interpret.

Chip size, noise and other stuff.

All other things being equal, will a larger sensor have more noise?
no. for a given sensor technology and pixel count, a larger sensor will
have larger pixels, and therefore have less noise.

http://www.spamsite.com/imagedetail/...formance.summa
ry/


I guess that's why this 1/2.5" sized sensor has more dynamic range than
most APS-C sized DSLR sensors which only have 7-8 EV stops.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3142/...7ceaf3a1_o.jpg

You're a pretend-photographer troll, one that loves nothing better than to

[snip]

Don't mind this loon. He has no idea what he's talking about, & delights
in wasting everybody's time.



Bob Larter's legal name: Lionel Lauer
Home news-group, an actual group in the "troll-tracker" hierarchy:
alt.kook.lionel-lauer (established on, or before, 2004)
Registered Description: "the 'owner of several troll domains' needs a group where he'll stay on topic."

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?hl=en&num=10&as_ugroup=alt.kook.lionel-lauer

"Results 1 - 10 of about 2,170 for group:alt.kook.lionel-lauer."
  #8  
Old December 4th 09, 10:15 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
JimKramer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default Nagging questions

"Alfred Molon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
lid says...
most dslr sensors are capable of over 12 stops, limited by the d/a
converter.


Not true. Most DSLRs have less than 9 stops of dynamic range, according
to the tests of dpreview. See for instance the Nikon D300s:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond300s/page17.asp

The best it achieves is 8.6 EV. Even the D3, with its bigger pixels is
not better:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD3/page20.asp

Also here the maximum is 8.6EV.


Reading all the way down to "RAW headroom" on the D3 link, 2nd paragraph:

"As usual the default Adobe Camera RAW conversion delivers less dynamic
range than JPEG from the camera (a more contrasty tone curve and very little
noise reduction in shadows). Simply switching to 'Auto' in the ACR
conversion dialog reaps huge rewards (we measured the result to have exactly
12 stops of dynamic range), and in our tests with real world shots produced
superb results with images that seemed to be over exposed beyond
redemption."

-Jim


  #9  
Old December 4th 09, 10:22 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Nagging questions

In article , Alfred
Molon wrote:

most dslr sensors are capable of over 12 stops, limited by the d/a
converter.


Not true. Most DSLRs have less than 9 stops of dynamic range, according
to the tests of dpreview. See for instance the Nikon D300s:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond300s/page17.asp


dpreview tests dynamic range by comparing jpegs which is bogus, to say
the least.

The best it achieves is 8.6 EV. Even the D3, with its bigger pixels is
not better:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD3/page20.asp

Also here the maximum is 8.6EV.


scroll to the bottom where they measured 12 stops with raw.

dxo labs measured it at 12.2 he
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Nikon/D3

and roger clark measured 13.7 here, but he measures the capability of
the sensor itself, not the rest of the system.
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedeta...formance.summa
ry/
  #10  
Old December 5th 09, 12:44 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Eric Miller
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 181
Default Nagging questions

nospam wrote:
In article , Eric Miller
wrote:

Just some random, mostly resolution-related questions. I fully accept
that the questions themselves may be misguided, so feel free to interpret.

Chip size, noise and other stuff.

All other things being equal, will a larger sensor have more noise?


no. for a given sensor technology and pixel count, a larger sensor will
have larger pixels, and therefore have less noise.

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedeta...formance.summa
ry/


Okay, but if the larger sensor has pixels of the same size, will it have
more noise?

Eric Miller
www.dyesscreek.com
 




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