The disappearance of darkness

In article , Me
wrote:

The very reactive load of these speakers may well mean that cable
resistance becomes an audible factor, and cable inductance/capacitance
becomes significant (impedance is very low at high frequencies, and very
high at low frequencies).

speakers are a reactive load. wire is a resistive load. inductance and
capacitance of straight wire is *so* incredibly tiny that it can be
assumed to be zero (nanohenries & picofarads versus milliohms).

ESL tend to be /much/ more reactive than conventional speakers - IIRC,
impedance can vary from 1 ohm to 100 ohm depending on frequency. They
were very effective at frying conventional amplifiers.

even at 1 ohm inductance, different speaker wire isn't going to matter.
the differences are a tiny fraction of an ohm.

On 2013.05.14 12:10 , Peter Irwin wrote:
Me wrote:

Even well regarded companies like B&W IMO make some extremely bold
claims about their technology, usually along the lines of acoustic /
mechanical properties of some very expensive and hard to copy substance
which is very close to unobtanium. They then go on to justify this based
on things like linear accuracy of waveform / THD at high frequencies,
when apparently the human auditory system can't even discern the
difference between a sine wave and a square wave at about 8KHz or higher.

While it is true that you can't hear ultrasonic harmonics, the same
distortion mechanisms produce intermodulation distortion. It is
probable that most tweeters produce audible IM products in the
midrange based on high frequency input signal in at least some
real world conditions. Practically any tweeter will have audible
IM under contrived conditions. (Feed the tweeter with 19khz and 20khz
at a fairly high level and while you may not hear those tones, you
will hear the 1khz difference tone.)

Your ears may not hear the driving tones but the
constructive/destructive product is easily heard.

(aka: beat).

--
"A Canadian is someone who knows how to have sex in a canoe."
-Pierre Berton

On 2013.05.14 06:28 , Eric Stevens wrote:
On Mon, 13 May 2013 19:32:22 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

On 2013.05.09 02:28 , nospam wrote:
In article , R. Mark Clayton
wrote:

Indeed one of the more sensible Hi-Fi mags tested regular mains cable
against a group of expensive speaker cables. Virtually no difference. I
did use [cheap] chunky speaker cable for my mains, but at full pelt they can
be carrying quite a lot of current (10A+).

i got my speaker cable at a hardware store. 14 gauge wire is 14 gauge
wire.

there's nothing special about 'audiophile cable.' it's the same stuff,
but with a nicer looking insulation and a significantly higher price.

Not quite true.

For example the more recent fad is "oxygen free" copper cable which has
a _measurably_ lower resistance over a given length.

It's not a recent fad: I've been using it for +25 years.

"Audiophiles" can rejoice because they can ACTUALLY MEASURE THE LOWER
RESISTANCE of their expensive cable v. lesser stuff.

(The fact that nobody can _hear_ the difference sails way over their heads).

I use it to connect my 'current dumping" Quad 606 amplifier to my Quad
ESL63 speakers and I can certainly hear the difference. It's not
blindingly obvious but using any one of several (vinyl) test records I
was able to demonstrate an audible difference via several double blind
tests. If you can't hear the difference it may say more about your
equipment than the cables.

The difference in resistance is negligible for the same gauge and length.

If the 'other' cable was truly limiting current to the point of
affecting sound, then you would have done as well by just going to a
fatter gauge ordinary wire.

--
"A Canadian is someone who knows how to have sex in a canoe."
-Pierre Berton

On 2013.05.13 20:29 , nospam wrote:
In article , Alan Browne
wrote:

Indeed one of the more sensible Hi-Fi mags tested regular mains cable
against a group of expensive speaker cables. Virtually no difference. I
did use [cheap] chunky speaker cable for my mains, but at full pelt they
can
be carrying quite a lot of current (10A+).

i got my speaker cable at a hardware store. 14 gauge wire is 14 gauge
wire.

there's nothing special about 'audiophile cable.' it's the same stuff,
but with a nicer looking insulation and a significantly higher price.

Not quite true.

it's definitely true. it's all snake oil with a huge price tag for
suckers who fall for the deceptive marketing.


No ****. Don't you recognize sarcastic posts for what they are?


--
"A Canadian is someone who knows how to have sex in a canoe."
-Pierre Berton

In article , Alan Browne
wrote:

"Audiophiles" can rejoice because they can ACTUALLY MEASURE THE LOWER
RESISTANCE of their expensive cable v. lesser stuff.

(The fact that nobody can _hear_ the difference sails way over their
heads).

I use it to connect my 'current dumping" Quad 606 amplifier to my Quad
ESL63 speakers and I can certainly hear the difference. It's not
blindingly obvious but using any one of several (vinyl) test records I
was able to demonstrate an audible difference via several double blind
tests. If you can't hear the difference it may say more about your
equipment than the cables.

The difference in resistance is negligible for the same gauge and length.

If the 'other' cable was truly limiting current to the point of
affecting sound, then you would have done as well by just going to a
fatter gauge ordinary wire.

exactly, and save a significant amount of money in the process.

On Tue, 14 May 2013 14:46:03 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

For example the more recent fad is "oxygen free" copper cable which has
a _measurably_ lower resistance over a given length.

It's not a recent fad: I've been using it for +25 years.

so has everyone else. most wire is oxygen free, and silver is a better
conductor anyway but the name doesn't sound as cool.

"Audiophiles" can rejoice because they can ACTUALLY MEASURE THE LOWER
RESISTANCE of their expensive cable v. lesser stuff.

(The fact that nobody can _hear_ the difference sails way over their heads).

I use it to connect my 'current dumping" Quad 606 amplifier to my Quad
ESL63 speakers and I can certainly hear the difference.

you may think you can, but you can't. differences in fractions of an
ohm make no difference and are not audible.

It was a long time ago and my memory is coming back to me. I am using
a low-oxygen cable but not the fancy stuff that the audiophiles pay
heaps for. I can't the conductor cross section but it is generous.

What I was testing against was a fancy cable where the in and out
conductors each employed three sets of wires which were interwoven. I
think that this may have been the conductor which achieved fame by
blowing up a Naim amplifier as soon as it was connected. Fortunately
the Quad 606 is "Unconditionally stable with any load and any signal".
In any case, I could hear the difference and dumped the fancy cable.

It's not
blindingly obvious but using any one of several (vinyl) test records I
was able to demonstrate an audible difference via several double blind
tests. If you can't hear the difference it may say more about your
equipment than the cables.

of course it's not blindingly obvious, because there is no difference
to be heard.

if you guessed correctly, it was pure luck.

It was much better than pure luck.

Cable impedance does play an important part as I am sure you know.
Only with zero impedance does the amplifier have 100% control of the
speaker. Quad puts it as "For optimum performance it is necessary to
ensure that the impedance of the cable is small relative to the
impedance of the load". This makes sense as the amplifier is able to
poke out more than 10 amps under the right conditions.

In fact what I think I may have been hearing was the effect of the
unusually high reactance of the quite long interwoven cable.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Wed, 15 May 2013 08:28:28 +1200, Me wrote:

On 15/05/2013 8:21 a.m., nospam wrote:
In article , Me
wrote:

"Audiophiles" can rejoice because they can ACTUALLY MEASURE THE LOWER
RESISTANCE of their expensive cable v. lesser stuff.

(The fact that nobody can _hear_ the difference sails way over their
heads).

I use it to connect my 'current dumping" Quad 606 amplifier to my Quad
ESL63 speakers and I can certainly hear the difference.

you may think you can, but you can't. differences in fractions of an
ohm make no difference and are not audible.

The system that Eric refers to doesn't use conventional speakers - "ESL"
= ElectroStatic Loudspeaker.

i checked the equipment he mentioned but it doesn't matter.

The very reactive load of these speakers may well mean that cable
resistance becomes an audible factor, and cable inductance/capacitance
becomes significant (impedance is very low at high frequencies, and very
high at low frequencies).

speakers are a reactive load. wire is a resistive load. inductance and
capacitance of straight wire is *so* incredibly tiny that it can be
assumed to be zero (nanohenries & picofarads versus milliohms).

ESL tend to be /much/ more reactive than conventional speakers - IIRC,
impedance can vary from 1 ohm to 100 ohm depending on frequency. They
were very effective at frying conventional amplifiers.

Quite right, but this applies to most electrostatic speakers.

the most that can happen with audiophile wire is that it will be a
fraction of an ohm lower (and that's being incredibly optimistic),
which isn't going to make any difference. this is measurable. it's not
a question of can you hear it.

for example, 25 feet of 14 gauge wire is just 0.063 ohms. the impedance
of the speaker is typically 8 ohms. that's over 100x as much.

http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html

If he says he could hear the difference with this setup - then I believe it.

if the electrical properties of the wire are the same, the audio will
be the same. it's basic physics.

moving the speaker closer or further away from the wall will have far
more of an effect than any cable could ever have, but you can't sell
that.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

"Audiophiles" can rejoice because they can ACTUALLY MEASURE THE LOWER
RESISTANCE of their expensive cable v. lesser stuff.

(The fact that nobody can _hear_ the difference sails way over their
heads).

I use it to connect my 'current dumping" Quad 606 amplifier to my Quad
ESL63 speakers and I can certainly hear the difference.

you may think you can, but you can't. differences in fractions of an
ohm make no difference and are not audible.

It was a long time ago and my memory is coming back to me. I am using
a low-oxygen cable but not the fancy stuff that the audiophiles pay
heaps for. I can't the conductor cross section but it is generous.

in other words, standard wire.

What I was testing against was a fancy cable where the in and out
conductors each employed three sets of wires which were interwoven. I
think that this may have been the conductor which achieved fame by
blowing up a Naim amplifier as soon as it was connected. Fortunately
the Quad 606 is "Unconditionally stable with any load and any signal".
In any case, I could hear the difference and dumped the fancy cable.

woven wire looks nice. electrically it's meaningless.

It's not
blindingly obvious but using any one of several (vinyl) test records I
was able to demonstrate an audible difference via several double blind
tests. If you can't hear the difference it may say more about your
equipment than the cables.

of course it's not blindingly obvious, because there is no difference
to be heard.

if you guessed correctly, it was pure luck.

It was much better than pure luck.

it was luck. electrically, the cable is the same, therefore no
difference to be heard.

Cable impedance does play an important part as I am sure you know.

the impedance of wire is for all intents, zero. as noted before, 25' of
14ga wire is 0.063 ohms and any reactive component is many orders of
magnitude lower than that.

Only with zero impedance does the amplifier have 100% control of the
speaker.

it's close enough to zero that it can be considered zero.

Quad puts it as "For optimum performance it is necessary to
ensure that the impedance of the cable is small relative to the
impedance of the load". This makes sense as the amplifier is able to
poke out more than 10 amps under the right conditions.

the impedance of the wire *is* small relative to the load.

the wire is 0.063 ohms and the load is nominally 8 ohms. even if the
load drops to 1-2 ohms at certain frequencies, the wire is still
insignificant.

In fact what I think I may have been hearing was the effect of the
unusually high reactance of the quite long interwoven cable.

definitely not. what you were hearing was what you wanted to hear.

On Wed, 15 May 2013 01:55:14 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

"Audiophiles" can rejoice because they can ACTUALLY MEASURE THE LOWER
RESISTANCE of their expensive cable v. lesser stuff.

(The fact that nobody can _hear_ the difference sails way over their
heads).

I use it to connect my 'current dumping" Quad 606 amplifier to my Quad
ESL63 speakers and I can certainly hear the difference.

you may think you can, but you can't. differences in fractions of an
ohm make no difference and are not audible.

It was a long time ago and my memory is coming back to me. I am using
a low-oxygen cable but not the fancy stuff that the audiophiles pay
heaps for. I can't the conductor cross section but it is generous.

in other words, standard wire.

'Good' standard wire. The bulk of the advantage is mechanical.

What I was testing against was a fancy cable where the in and out
conductors each employed three sets of wires which were interwoven. I
think that this may have been the conductor which achieved fame by
blowing up a Naim amplifier as soon as it was connected. Fortunately
the Quad 606 is "Unconditionally stable with any load and any signal".
In any case, I could hear the difference and dumped the fancy cable.

woven wire looks nice. electrically it's meaningless.

Not this lot. Three cores in, three cores out, the whole interwoven to
form a six ply tube. As I said, the reactance was such that in the old
days Naim amplifiers could not tolerate them even for milliseconds.

It's not
blindingly obvious but using any one of several (vinyl) test records I
was able to demonstrate an audible difference via several double blind
tests. If you can't hear the difference it may say more about your
equipment than the cables.

of course it's not blindingly obvious, because there is no difference
to be heard.

if you guessed correctly, it was pure luck.

It was much better than pure luck.

it was luck. electrically, the cable is the same, therefore no
difference to be heard.

Cable impedance does play an important part as I am sure you know.

the impedance of wire is for all intents, zero. as noted before, 25' of
14ga wire is 0.063 ohms and any reactive component is many orders of
magnitude lower than that.

Note that I did not say 'resistance'. I said 'impedance' of which
reactance is a factor.

Only with zero impedance does the amplifier have 100% control of the
speaker.

it's close enough to zero that it can be considered zero.

Quad puts it as "For optimum performance it is necessary to
ensure that the impedance of the cable is small relative to the
impedance of the load". This makes sense as the amplifier is able to
poke out more than 10 amps under the right conditions.

the impedance of the wire *is* small relative to the load.

the wire is 0.063 ohms and the load is nominally 8 ohms. even if the
load drops to 1-2 ohms at certain frequencies, the wire is still
insignificant.

In fact what I think I may have been hearing was the effect of the
unusually high reactance of the quite long interwoven cable.

definitely not. what you were hearing was what you wanted to hear.

Double blind, remember.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems nospam wrote:
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

For example the more recent fad is "oxygen free" copper cable which has
a _measurably_ lower resistance over a given length.

It's not a recent fad: I've been using it for +25 years.

so has everyone else. most wire is oxygen free, and silver is a better
conductor anyway but the name doesn't sound as cool.

"Audiophiles" can rejoice because they can ACTUALLY MEASURE THE LOWER
RESISTANCE of their expensive cable v. lesser stuff.

(The fact that nobody can _hear_ the difference sails way over their heads).

I use it to connect my 'current dumping" Quad 606 amplifier to my Quad
ESL63 speakers and I can certainly hear the difference.

you may think you can, but you can't. differences in fractions of an
ohm make no difference and are not audible.

Except when they do make a difference of course. Such as the notorious
case of some amps when driving electrostatic loudspeakers through
unusually low resistance cables becoming unstable and distorting
because they needed the very slight cable resistance to stay stable
with an ELS load. IIRC it was some early models of NAIM amps.

--
Chris Malcolm