Very pocketable?

T i m wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 16:09:38 -0700, SMS
wrote:

T i m wrote:
I have looked here, asked elsewhere and Googled quite a bit and I
think it's down to the Fuji F30 or, if anyone can spot what we might
loose that is 'essential' the F20 LE or the F31fd?

In case the F20 LE is unique to one store here in the UK (Argos) a
link to it is here.
Avoid those cameras at all costs.

Do you mean the LE variant, the F20 or even Fuji's in general?
I guess I'd opt for the Canon SD1000. You definitely don't want to give
up an optical viewfinder. It's $200 in the U.S..

I spotted it for about £160 here so right on the upper edge of my
budget.

I found a review (just at random) and it was looking good (especially
being ~20mm thick) but this bit didn't sound so good ..

"With no optical image stabilisation system available, this limits the
camera to good light photography only"

http://www.photographyblog.com/revie...al_ixus_70.php

Assuming the camera reviewed really is the same as the Canon SD1000 of
course?

So how important is IS really (never had it myself etc)? Would you
still say an optical viewfinder wins over IS?

All the best ..

T i m

Just personal preference, but I wouldn't buy a camera without an optical
viewfinder. As for IS, it is quite useful, but I have taken pictures
for about 55 years without one, so.....

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:48:27 GMT, Paul Heslop
wrote:


I have an olympus superzoom and an older olympus c220. The first has a
ten times zoom and the second the straight 3X. On the older cam I
hardly worried about camera shake, the flash was adequate when needed
and although it didn't have IS I hardly noticed except in extreme
cases, and even then managed to take some handheld flashless pics in
very low light for effect, though there was occasional evidence of
movement.

Ok ...

With the superzoom and no IS the problems are pretty
obvious, specially at the top end of the zoom. I've missed some really
good shots just through my shaky hands and arms. When it takes good
pics they are very good, but how much I would love a real IS!

;-)

It's often the case with lots of things that there are the
exceptional, average and lemons. In most cases we will settle for
'good' (you get a camera for Xmas, it works but it's not what you
would have bought yourself etc) but sometimes, either as a result of
hard research, a good recommendation or sheer luck we stumble on what
is probably one_of_the or the_only model that for fills ALL our
requirements and works brilliantly.

Improvements in technology come (and sometimes) go and often pass us
by but sometimes they become a must have and we start the process all
over again .. ;-(

Reading all the replies here it would seem I may be pretty close to
*my* ideal with my F420 (it's only hers that seems to eat batteries).
We took my F420 out yesterday to a little jazz gig in a local park and
our daughter (and b/f) took some video clips of the band and maybe 20
fun pics (like kids do) and all seemed ok and maybe because it's only
a short zoom and may have a good ccd is why we don't see many bad pics
because of camera shake?

All the best Paul ..

T i m

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:44:33 -0400, ASAAR wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:32:42 GMT, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 16:09:38 -0700, SMS
wrote:

T i m wrote:

I have looked here, asked elsewhere and Googled quite a bit and I
think it's down to the Fuji F30 or, if anyone can spot what we might
loose that is 'essential' the F20 LE or the F31fd?

In case the F20 LE is unique to one store here in the UK (Argos) a
link to it is here.

Avoid those cameras at all costs.

Do you mean the LE variant, the F20 or even Fuji's in general?

He means the F20, F30 and F31fd, and gives his reason in the next
sentence.

I guess I was confused because I thought the F30 (for example) seemed
highly recommended by many?

You're probably not familiar with SMS, but he's prone to
making rash statements, and thinks that what he doesn't like should
be avoided by everyone.

It's good to have convictions. ;-)

In this case it's the lack of an optical
viewfinder. Often he'll rule out cameras because they use AA
batteries or because they don't have IS. His list of deal breakers
is quite long.

Although it's good to be firm with your demands if you hold out too
much you can end up with nothing!

I agree with him in that I'd much prefer a P&S camera to have a
viewfinder, but the F30 and F31fd are unique cameras, having
features that do much to make up for their lack of viewfinders.

Understood ..

It's true that the LCD display can sometimes be hard to see in
bright daylight at certain angles, but even when using cameras
having viewfinders, it's not a good idea to point the camera in the
direction of the sun even if the sun is only close to, and not
actually included in the frame.

Ok ..

According to reviews, "The screen
does have a nice anti-reflective coating which works well, blocking
all but direct sunlight from blanking the screen out."

I think there is also an ability to 'see though' the reflections etc
that comes with practice (as I can 'hear through' the static as I have
been a CB'er, AR'er for a long time etc). Our daughter was born into
an era of TFT displays on everything so seems to be able to cope in
most conditions. If it's that bad they make little stick on / pop up
shrouds for most sizes of screen ..

The main advantage that these Fujis offer is the highest usable
ISO available in small P&S cameras. This allows them to take sharp,
clear pictures in much dimmer light than other P&S cameras can
manage, approaching the low light ability of DSLRs.

I did read that on most of the reviews ..

This is enough
to compensate for their lack of IS. In fact, it's better than IS
for low light photography because it doesn't do it by allowing you
to use slower shutter speeds. That would be fine for static
objects, but objects such as moving hands, turning heads, people
walking, etc., will be captured nicely, whereas other P&S cameras
having IS will get clear shots of non-moving objects such as tables
and chairs, but the people sitting in the chairs or those walking by
will be blurry.

Ah, good point.

I'd prefer the F30 or F31fd, since the F20 is a budget model that
has a poor, lower resolution screen.

Ok ...

The F20 also uses a different
battery that doesn't last for nearly as many shots as the F30 and
F31fd. But those cameras have exceptionally good battery
performance, IIRC, over 500 shots per charge. So if the F20's
battery is only good for 300 shots (the review didn't state a
number, just that it was worse than the F30, etc.), that would be
good enough to satisfy many photographers.

Well 300 shots (or even 200) sounds like a luxury to us Steven!


http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/con...ons-Review.htm

Nice, thanks. Assuming one uses the screen on a P&S for framing rather
than detail (if you can see it in the sun at all etc g) then is that
worth the difference between the F20 at £90 and the £150 F30 would you
say please (assuming 300 shots / battery was acceptable etc)?


So how important is IS really (never had it myself etc)? Would you
still say an optical viewfinder wins over IS?

IS is really nice. But as mentioned above, having a considerably
higher usable ISO allows you to use faster shutter speeds that
prevent blur just about as effectively as IS for static objects, and
for moving objects there's no question, high ISO helps a good deal
and IS doesn't. In an ideal world, you'd be able to buy a camera
that has the Fuji's excellent sensor and low noise processing, as
well as IS.

Understood.


[ from your original post : ]
Things I have considered so far ..

1) It needs to be very pocketable or she won't take it out. So
something slim rather than small may be better.

The F30/F31fd is compact but not ultra slim. For it's capability,
giving up slimness should be well worth its extra thickness. The
high usable ISO means that in many indoor, low light situations, the
F30/F31fd can take pictures without using the flash that most other
cameras would have to use. Flash creates *many* problems. Uneven
lighting, harsh shadows, redeye, etc. so the F30/F31fd will often be
able to create much nicer, more natural looking pictures.

All good points, thanks ..


2) It needs to have good battery life. She's likely to be out the
whole day (away from power) and possibly not 'remember' to charge it
up every night.

Ok, you made me verify it. The F30 gets about 580 shots per
charge. Is that enough?

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilmf30/

Ermm, *should be* .. weg. Like with her S7000. I have given her
some 2800mA NiMH's (and some Duracells as backup) and she uses the
camera a good few times between charges.


3) It doesn't want to be too 'expensive' (or she won't want to get it
out in case it get's snatched or she drops it and we won't be able to
afford it).

The F30 is a simple, plain looking camera, so unless the would-be
thief is knowledgeable, the F30 would appear to be a very
inexpensive camera.

Yep, silver P&S's are everywhere now so as you say ...

I believe that the prices are much lower now
than when the cameras were first introduced, but don't know the
actual prices since the F30 was recently discontinued in the USA.
The F31fd is available from B&H and Adorama for $210 (you pay
$239.95 and get a $30 rebate).

And we often pay twice what you do here in 'rip off Britain .. but in
this case (even with $2 £1) the prices seem fairly similar.


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._Camera.htm l

http://www.adorama.com/IFJFPF31FD.html

(cheers)


4) I think it would be good to have an optical viewfinder (sometimes
it's difficult to see the screens in bright sunlight or catch moving
things).

I agree, but as the song goes, "You can't always get what you
want." But you can often get most of what you want.

Indeed.


5) Something that has proven to be reasonably 'resistant' .. both
against less_than_ideal treatment and the elements. I'm not looking
specifically for 'waterproof' or 'rugged' though.

6) The ability to take video with sound (for the fun element).

No reports of flimsiness, and DPReview says of the F31fd :

Superb build and handling
Decent movie mode

Brilliant ..

Video modes allow up to 640x480 at 30frames/sec, with sound.

I think that's the same as on her S7000 isn't it?

I have looked here, asked elsewhere and Googled quite a bit and I
think it's down to the Fuji F30 or, if anyone can spot what we might
loose that is 'essential' the F20 LE or the F31fd?

As noted, the F20 isn't as desirable, the F30 may or may not still
be available (new) and the "fd" of the F31fd stands for "Face
Detection" technology. This helps the camera to better focus on
faces in some situations. Several cameras offer this feature, but I
don't think it's a "must have" feature, and I wouldn't want to rely
too much on it. I can't say if it's a gimmick or not, as I've never
used a camera that implemented Face Detection.

Thanks (again) for the insight ..

There's also a newer F40fd, but it has a greater number of
megapixels than the F31fd, (8mp vs. 6mp) so while it will still be a
far superior camera in low light, high ISO situations, it probably
won't be quite as good as the F31fd.

Weird that eh (from a camera nooby's pov anyway).

When the original 6mp F10 was
reviewed and compared with 7mp cameras from several other
manufacturers, the 6mp F10 was found to create sharper, higher
resolution shots than the others. Factors contributing to this are
a good lens as well as not needing to use the 'detail robbing'
processing that the other cameras employed to reduce image noise.

Great, thanks *very* much for all your feedback and good advice
Steven.

In the light of the F32fd being considered 'good' and therefore it
reducing the price differential between the F20 and F30 then I think
I'll give it a closer look.

All the best and thanks again ..

T i m

Ron Hunter wrote:
[]
Just personal preference, but I wouldn't buy a camera without an
optical viewfinder. As for IS, it is quite useful, but I have taken
pictures for about 55 years without one, so.....

.... so you might like to try IS and see the benefits, particularly as you
/may/ not be quite as steady as 55 years ago!

David

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:48:32 +0100, Prometheus wrote:

I agree with him in that I'd much prefer a P&S camera to have a
viewfinder, but the F30 and F31fd are unique cameras, having features
that do much to make up for their lack of viewfinders. It's true that
the LCD display can sometimes be hard to see in bright daylight at
certain angles, but even when using cameras having viewfinders, it's
not a good idea to point the camera in the direction of the sun even if
the sun is only close to, and not actually included in the frame.
According to reviews, "The screen does have a nice anti-reflective
coating which works well, blocking all but direct sunlight from
blanking the screen out."

If you have the Sun in, or nearly in, the frame then it is in front of
the camera and therefor will NOT be reflecting from the LCD which is
conventionally on the back of the camera, however your bright adapted
eyes might not see the not very brightly light LCD.

The bit about the anti-reflective coating was tossed in as an
afterthought. The only time I ever had a real problem trying to
shoot with my Fuji P&S due to the sun was with the camera pointed
towards a very bright setting sun, which completely overwhelmed the
camera's LCD and EVF. I don't think that problems seeing the LCD
are primarily due to "bright adapted eyes". It seems to me that the
illumination of the LCD is totally swamped by the far greater
brightness of an LCD (whether turned on or off) illuminated by a
bright sun. In other words, quickly putting on a pair of glasses
whose lenses consist of very dark ND filters wouldn't make it any
easier to see the image on the LCD, whereas having the sun blocked
by dark clouds would.

Ron Hunter wrote:

Just personal preference, but I wouldn't buy a camera without an optical
viewfinder. As for IS, it is quite useful, but I have taken pictures
for about 55 years without one, so.....

Yeah, but for those 55 years, you had an optical viewfinder. If you rely
on an LCD, you're virtually guaranteed to be holding the camera in a way
that increases the shake significantly (unless it's on a tripod) so the
IS becomes much more important. Just watch people taking pictures with
cameras that lack an optical viewfinder (or EVF)--it's almost as comical
as all those flashes going off in stadiums.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:55:45 GMT, T i m wrote:

The F20 also uses a different
battery that doesn't last for nearly as many shots as the F30 and
F31fd. But those cameras have exceptionally good battery
performance, IIRC, over 500 shots per charge. So if the F20's
battery is only good for 300 shots (the review didn't state a
number, just that it was worse than the F30, etc.), that would be
good enough to satisfy many photographers.

Well 300 shots (or even 200) sounds like a luxury to us Steven!

Please! Steven (SMS) is the guy that is trying to convince you
that the F30/F20/F31fd is unacceptable due to it not having a
viewfinder. I'm the other guy.


Nice, thanks. Assuming one uses the screen on a P&S for framing rather
than detail (if you can see it in the sun at all etc g) then is that
worth the difference between the F20 at £90 and the £150 F30 would you
say please (assuming 300 shots / battery was acceptable etc)?

In addition to the other reasons, I'd avoid the F20 because it is
almost completely automatic, lacking the aperture and shutter
priority modes of the F30/F31fd. So if you want to use a particular
shutter speed or aperture with the F20, you can only hope that the
camera gives you what you want rather than being able to dial it in.


Video modes allow up to 640x480 at 30frames/sec, with sound.

I think that's the same as on her S7000 isn't it?

Yes.


When the original 6mp F10 was
reviewed and compared with 7mp cameras from several other
manufacturers, the 6mp F10 was found to create sharper, higher
resolution shots than the others. Factors contributing to this are
a good lens as well as not needing to use the 'detail robbing'
processing that the other cameras employed to reduce image noise.

Great, thanks *very* much for all your feedback and good advice
Steven.

Uh, it's actually Bill, not Steven. g


In the light of the F32fd being considered 'good' and therefore it
reducing the price differential between the F20 and F30 then I think
I'll give it a closer look.

F32fd? Typo for F31fd I assume?


All the best and thanks again ..

You're welcome.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 04:12:14 -0500, Ron Hunter
wrote:



So how important is IS really (never had it myself etc)? Would you
still say an optical viewfinder wins over IS?

All the best ..

T i m

Just personal preference, but I wouldn't buy a camera without an optical
viewfinder.

I do like the idea of having an optical viewfinder but thinking about
it I can't remember the last time I actually used it on my F420?

As for IS, it is quite useful, but I have taken pictures
for about 55 years without one, so.....

Well there is that ... 'what did we do before mobile phones' etc ..
and I think one answer could be 'missed out on a lot'?

I guess it's one of those things .. soon it could be incorporated in
every camera (maybe with the option to turn it off) and we will all
wonder how we did without it?

Someone else suggested a Konica Minolta Dimage XG as a good compact
all rounder and I actually bid on one on eBay but it got too expensive
for what was a second hand 3.2 MP camera.

All the best ..

T i m

T i m wrote:

Improvements in technology come (and sometimes) go and often pass us
by but sometimes they become a must have and we start the process all
over again .. ;-(

The problem is that often products are decontented to save the
manufacturer money, or for other reasons, and you have to work extra
hard to avoid these products.

Another problem is that manufacturers often compete in ways that don't
benefit the user, but the user doesn't realize it. The trend to very
high megapixel counts on very small sensors has resulted in decreased
image quality, but the "megapixel wars" mean that someone selling a 5 MP
point and shoot, has just no chance against a 10 MP point and shoot. The
"LCD size" wars mean that to have space for the large LCD, the optical
viewfinder often has to be eliminated.

I think that only your daughter can tell if she'll be okay always using
the LCD. She has the S7000 so she's probably favoring either the LCD or
the EVF. I know the LCD-only cameras drive my daughter crazy after she
learned proper technique, but she's fast becoming a professional, and
has already had her work published.

That said, the F30 is actually a very good camera, other than the lack
of an optical viewfinder, it's one of the best compact cameras on the
market.

I'm currently in the market for a pocketable camera, because my old S500
got dropped by someone, destroying the LCD. If I could have everything I
wanted, it would include:

1. Optical viewfinder
2. Zoom that goes down to 28mm
3. EIS
4. Li-Ion battery
5. =8 megapixels
6. AF Assist Lamp (very few cameras lack this now, thanks to Canon!)
7. Manual white balance control
8. SD storage

I value the wide angle lens, something that is not very common on
pocketable cameras, other than the seriously flawed Panasonic FX and LX
series.

Of course you can't go just by specs, i.e. Panansonic has some excellent
spec cameras that are horrible.

I also like the Sony DSC-W55 but they don't have manual white balance
control, and this is an absolute no-compromise requirement.

Since you're in the UK, you might also look at the Ricoh Caplio R6. It
also lacks the optical viewfinder, but it has a wide-angle lens. Ricoh
doesn't sell cameras in the U.S. any more.

T i m wrote:


;-)

It's often the case with lots of things that there are the
exceptional, average and lemons. In most cases we will settle for
'good' (you get a camera for Xmas, it works but it's not what you
would have bought yourself etc) but sometimes, either as a result of
hard research, a good recommendation or sheer luck we stumble on what
is probably one_of_the or the_only model that for fills ALL our
requirements and works brilliantly.

Improvements in technology come (and sometimes) go and often pass us
by but sometimes they become a must have and we start the process all
over again .. ;-(

Reading all the replies here it would seem I may be pretty close to
*my* ideal with my F420 (it's only hers that seems to eat batteries).
We took my F420 out yesterday to a little jazz gig in a local park and
our daughter (and b/f) took some video clips of the band and maybe 20
fun pics (like kids do) and all seemed ok and maybe because it's only
a short zoom and may have a good ccd is why we don't see many bad pics
because of camera shake?

All the best Paul ..

T i m

good luck with your purchase Tim.
--
Paul (We won't die of devotion)
-------------------------------------------------------
Stop and Look
http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/