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#11
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[SI] Pairs comments - Alan B.
On 7/28/2012 12:27 PM, Robert Coe wrote:
snip This thread is degenerating into a murky, inconclusive analysis of analysis - the sort of thing you might get in a prolonged debate between an Orthodox rabbi and a Jesuit. I think we should simply acknowledge that comments are good (at least they demonstrate interest), well thought-out comments are better, and deep, penetrating insight is as valuable as it is rare. Then go ahead and take the comments we receive for what they seem to be worth, remembering always that pride and defensiveness are often a creative person's worst enemies. I certainly acknowledge that. However, the Duck has made it clear that if I comment, I should comment on all images. I do not agree with that assertion. -- Peter |
#12
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[SI] Pairs comments - Alan B.
On 2012-07-29 12:18:12 -0700, PeterN said:
On 7/28/2012 12:27 PM, Robert Coe wrote: snip This thread is degenerating into a murky, inconclusive analysis of analysis - the sort of thing you might get in a prolonged debate between an Orthodox rabbi and a Jesuit. I think we should simply acknowledge that comments are good (at least they demonstrate interest), well thought-out comments are better, and deep, penetrating insight is as valuable as it is rare. Then go ahead and take the comments we receive for what they seem to be worth, remembering always that pride and defensiveness are often a creative person's worst enemies. I certainly acknowledge that. However, the Duck has made it clear that if I comment, I should comment on all images. I do not agree with that assertion. Comment on whatever you choose to. My personal feeling is, if a submission has been made, and a commentator has chosen to make his opinion known for one, all are worthy of comment. Each of us has a particular sensitivity regarding the images we produce and then submit to scrutiny in the SI, or wherever we might share our images. We each make that effort. Then an individual who has taken the effort to comment on particular images for whatever reason, choses to deem some entries as unworthy of his comment, again for whatever reason demeans the effort made by a particular entrant. Imagine if you will, a first time SI entrant who is wary of taking that risk of submitting his/her work to an opinionated group of critics. This individual has seen comments made on entries in the past and hopes to learn something from comments made on their submission, only to find that their images don't interest one commentator, or have been deemed unworthy of comment. Personally I would find that extremely discouraging and would think twice about submitting any of my images to a group which places no value in my participation. Now imaging just how enthusiastic you might feel about the SI if all those who comment might just totally ignore any of your entries because they don't like your particular style and don't care to comment . Try going for two or three months with nary a word on your images, you might just stop shooting for the SI and sharing your images. I can only think there might be some folks who will think, "Damn! I've gone to the trouble of submitting an image to this SI thing, and nobody even takes the trouble to say they don't care for my work. **** them!" Anyway It would get to be very much a case of, here is what I have to say about these 5 or so images. I can't think of a thing to say about the rest. I ought to try that sometime, it would cut down on the effort I put into my minimalist comments. ....or perhaps we should just agree to forego comments at all, then we could truly watch the SI die on the vine. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#13
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[SI] Pairs comments - Alan B.
On 7/29/2012 3:51 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On 2012-07-29 12:18:12 -0700, PeterN said: On 7/28/2012 12:27 PM, Robert Coe wrote: snip This thread is degenerating into a murky, inconclusive analysis of analysis - the sort of thing you might get in a prolonged debate between an Orthodox rabbi and a Jesuit. I think we should simply acknowledge that comments are good (at least they demonstrate interest), well thought-out comments are better, and deep, penetrating insight is as valuable as it is rare. Then go ahead and take the comments we receive for what they seem to be worth, remembering always that pride and defensiveness are often a creative person's worst enemies. I certainly acknowledge that. However, the Duck has made it clear that if I comment, I should comment on all images. I do not agree with that assertion. Comment on whatever you choose to. My personal feeling is, if a submission has been made, and a commentator has chosen to make his opinion known for one, all are worthy of comment. Each of us has a particular sensitivity regarding the images we produce and then submit to scrutiny in the SI, or wherever we might share our images. We each make that effort. Then an individual who has taken the effort to comment on particular images for whatever reason, choses to deem some entries as unworthy of his comment, again for whatever reason demeans the effort made by a particular entrant. Imagine if you will, a first time SI entrant who is wary of taking that risk of submitting his/her work to an opinionated group of critics. This individual has seen comments made on entries in the past and hopes to learn something from comments made on their submission, only to find that their images don't interest one commentator, or have been deemed unworthy of comment. Personally I would find that extremely discouraging and would think twice about submitting any of my images to a group which places no value in my participation. Now imaging just how enthusiastic you might feel about the SI if all those who comment might just totally ignore any of your entries because they don't like your particular style and don't care to comment . Try going for two or three months with nary a word on your images, you might just stop shooting for the SI and sharing your images. I can only think there might be some folks who will think, "Damn! I've gone to the trouble of submitting an image to this SI thing, and nobody even takes the trouble to say they don't care for my work. **** them!" Anyway It would get to be very much a case of, here is what I have to say about these 5 or so images. I can't think of a thing to say about the rest. I ought to try that sometime, it would cut down on the effort I put into my minimalist comments. ....or perhaps we should just agree to forego comments at all, then we could truly watch the SI die on the vine. If you are arguing that comments are good, I agree. If you are saying that more comments are better, I agree, to the extent that the additional comments are meaningful. What I can't agree on is that no comments are better than some comments. -- Peter |
#14
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[SI] Pairs comments - Alan B.
On 2012-07-29 17:39:23 -0700, PeterN said:
On 7/29/2012 3:51 PM, Savageduck wrote: On 2012-07-29 12:18:12 -0700, PeterN said: On 7/28/2012 12:27 PM, Robert Coe wrote: snip This thread is degenerating into a murky, inconclusive analysis of analysis - the sort of thing you might get in a prolonged debate between an Orthodox rabbi and a Jesuit. I think we should simply acknowledge that comments are good (at least they demonstrate interest), well thought-out comments are better, and deep, penetrating insight is as valuable as it is rare. Then go ahead and take the comments we receive for what they seem to be worth, remembering always that pride and defensiveness are often a creative person's worst enemies. I certainly acknowledge that. However, the Duck has made it clear that if I comment, I should comment on all images. I do not agree with that assertion. Comment on whatever you choose to. My personal feeling is, if a submission has been made, and a commentator has chosen to make his opinion known for one, all are worthy of comment. Each of us has a particular sensitivity regarding the images we produce and then submit to scrutiny in the SI, or wherever we might share our images. We each make that effort. Then an individual who has taken the effort to comment on particular images for whatever reason, choses to deem some entries as unworthy of his comment, again for whatever reason demeans the effort made by a particular entrant. Imagine if you will, a first time SI entrant who is wary of taking that risk of submitting his/her work to an opinionated group of critics. This individual has seen comments made on entries in the past and hopes to learn something from comments made on their submission, only to find that their images don't interest one commentator, or have been deemed unworthy of comment. Personally I would find that extremely discouraging and would think twice about submitting any of my images to a group which places no value in my participation. Now imaging just how enthusiastic you might feel about the SI if all those who comment might just totally ignore any of your entries because they don't like your particular style and don't care to comment . Try going for two or three months with nary a word on your images, you might just stop shooting for the SI and sharing your images. I can only think there might be some folks who will think, "Damn! I've gone to the trouble of submitting an image to this SI thing, and nobody even takes the trouble to say they don't care for my work. **** them!" Anyway It would get to be very much a case of, here is what I have to say about these 5 or so images. I can't think of a thing to say about the rest. I ought to try that sometime, it would cut down on the effort I put into my minimalist comments. ....or perhaps we should just agree to forego comments at all, then we could truly watch the SI die on the vine. If you are arguing that comments are good, I agree. If you are saying that more comments are better, I agree, to the extent that the additional comments are meaningful. So we agree. ;-) What I can't agree on is that no comments are better than some comments. Since I didn't actually say that no comments were better than some comments, I must be at fault for not explaining myself clearer. I was formulating a worst case scenario. My intent was to show that a lack of comments, good, bad, or indifferent, confirmatory of another's opinion, good or bad, or an absence of thoughts on a fix, or the lack of an observation on how a pleasing effect was achieved, tend to discourage entrants and participation in the SI, or any other type of event. Think of your camera clubs and any in club competitions and critique sessions they might hold. How would you feel if the judges and critics bypassed your entries month after month without comment, or even remark as to why they were ignoring your work. I might find that discouraging, as I am sure you would. It would quickly become one of those clubs, Groucho, you, and I would not want to be a member of. My point was if all those of us who actually write comments, however valuable, for the complete monthly SI entry gallery, are for whatever reason are unable to comment, or just feel not up to making comments for a particular month, those who anticipate comments would surely be disappointed. Then if the only comments came from those who cherry picked images to comment on, there would be a bad taste of being ignored experienced by those shooters of images not commented on. No comments is not a good thing, cherry picking images for commentary is also not a good thing and has the potential to discourage some shooters leading to an SI drop out. So again, we agree. ;-) Comments are good. Comments for all are better. ....but do as you please. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#15
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[SI] Pairs comments - Alan B.
On 2012-07-29 19:45:07 -0700, tony cooper said:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 18:24:26 -0700, Savageduck wrote: No comments is not a good thing, cherry picking images for commentary is also not a good thing and has the potential to discourage some shooters leading to an SI drop out. One problem with this theory is that sometimes we see nothing of interest or positive to comment on in some images. I think I'm probably too blunt the way it is. Sometimes it's kinder to not comment. ....and where is the lesson to be learned for the individual who needs it? Is it actually kinder to keep quiet. and let a photographer, blissfully continue to make the same mistakes he/she does not recognize? I don't think so. It starts to put us into the realm of the Flickr, "Great!" "Awesome!" "Fantastic shot!" platitudinous worthless one word utterance of empty praise. I thought that was one of the things we were trying to avoid here. There are two sides to the SI and this commentary coin. All of us who who submit images to the SI are vulnerable to having our work criticized, hopefully it will be constructive criticism given without malice. We should all be receptive to that constructive criticism, as we might not recognize our own failings. It is part of the learning process. I know that I have benefitted from remarks made about some of my images. This is especially true for the newcomer, who might feel that they are left out of this odd club of ours if we have this idea that if there is something unspeakably awful about an image we should just keep quiet. My hope would be that we take on the images that are the most challenging to comment on, because they are the ones which need fixing most, either the physical/technical attributes of the image, or elements of the subject, or esthetics which might be displeasing enough for you to be reluctant to comment. We are pushing ourselves out of our comfort zones by taking on challenging mandates. Why not close the circle by taking on challenging commentary? -- Regards, Savageduck |
#16
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[SI] Pairs comments - Alan B.
On 7/29/2012 9:24 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On 2012-07-29 17:39:23 -0700, PeterN said: On 7/29/2012 3:51 PM, Savageduck wrote: On 2012-07-29 12:18:12 -0700, PeterN said: On 7/28/2012 12:27 PM, Robert Coe wrote: snip This thread is degenerating into a murky, inconclusive analysis of analysis - the sort of thing you might get in a prolonged debate between an Orthodox rabbi and a Jesuit. I think we should simply acknowledge that comments are good (at least they demonstrate interest), well thought-out comments are better, and deep, penetrating insight is as valuable as it is rare. Then go ahead and take the comments we receive for what they seem to be worth, remembering always that pride and defensiveness are often a creative person's worst enemies. I certainly acknowledge that. However, the Duck has made it clear that if I comment, I should comment on all images. I do not agree with that assertion. Comment on whatever you choose to. My personal feeling is, if a submission has been made, and a commentator has chosen to make his opinion known for one, all are worthy of comment. Each of us has a particular sensitivity regarding the images we produce and then submit to scrutiny in the SI, or wherever we might share our images. We each make that effort. Then an individual who has taken the effort to comment on particular images for whatever reason, choses to deem some entries as unworthy of his comment, again for whatever reason demeans the effort made by a particular entrant. Imagine if you will, a first time SI entrant who is wary of taking that risk of submitting his/her work to an opinionated group of critics. This individual has seen comments made on entries in the past and hopes to learn something from comments made on their submission, only to find that their images don't interest one commentator, or have been deemed unworthy of comment. Personally I would find that extremely discouraging and would think twice about submitting any of my images to a group which places no value in my participation. Now imaging just how enthusiastic you might feel about the SI if all those who comment might just totally ignore any of your entries because they don't like your particular style and don't care to comment . Try going for two or three months with nary a word on your images, you might just stop shooting for the SI and sharing your images. I can only think there might be some folks who will think, "Damn! I've gone to the trouble of submitting an image to this SI thing, and nobody even takes the trouble to say they don't care for my work. **** them!" Anyway It would get to be very much a case of, here is what I have to say about these 5 or so images. I can't think of a thing to say about the rest. I ought to try that sometime, it would cut down on the effort I put into my minimalist comments. ....or perhaps we should just agree to forego comments at all, then we could truly watch the SI die on the vine. If you are arguing that comments are good, I agree. If you are saying that more comments are better, I agree, to the extent that the additional comments are meaningful. So we agree. ;-) What I can't agree on is that no comments are better than some comments. Since I didn't actually say that no comments were better than some comments, I must be at fault for not explaining myself clearer. I was formulating a worst case scenario. My intent was to show that a lack of comments, good, bad, or indifferent, confirmatory of another's opinion, good or bad, or an absence of thoughts on a fix, or the lack of an observation on how a pleasing effect was achieved, tend to discourage entrants and participation in the SI, or any other type of event. Think of your camera clubs and any in club competitions and critique sessions they might hold. How would you feel if the judges and critics bypassed your entries month after month without comment, or even remark as to why they were ignoring your work. I might find that discouraging, as I am sure you would. It would quickly become one of those clubs, Groucho, you, and I would not want to be a member of. My point was if all those of us who actually write comments, however valuable, for the complete monthly SI entry gallery, are for whatever reason are unable to comment, or just feel not up to making comments for a particular month, those who anticipate comments would surely be disappointed. Then if the only comments came from those who cherry picked images to comment on, there would be a bad taste of being ignored experienced by those shooters of images not commented on. No comments is not a good thing, cherry picking images for commentary is also not a good thing and has the potential to discourage some shooters leading to an SI drop out. So again, we agree. ;-) Comments are good. Comments for all are better. ....but do as you please. That we may agree on most points is not the issue. A frank discussion is more important. As I stated earlier, I consider that as the recipient of comments, I have a moral obligation to help others with my comments. That concept is indeed what keeps the SI going. I detest the flaccid comments on other forums. They are, to be kind, contra helpful. I spend some time trying to make helpful comments, without feeling repetitive. Sorry! that's me. I recently asked on of the members of my CC for a comment. I recognized it was not a great image and was seeking advice. His reply was that he had seen much better work from me, and the image was beyond fixing. What I considered the main POI, he considered trivial and trite. Since I know his comment to be honest, I revisited my image. In retrospect he was right. That image will never again see the light of day. -- Peter |
#17
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[SI] Pairs comments - Alan B.
On 2012-07-30 16:51:42 -0700, PeterN said:
On 7/29/2012 9:24 PM, Savageduck wrote: On 2012-07-29 17:39:23 -0700, PeterN said: On 7/29/2012 3:51 PM, Savageduck wrote: On 2012-07-29 12:18:12 -0700, PeterN said: On 7/28/2012 12:27 PM, Robert Coe wrote: snip This thread is degenerating into a murky, inconclusive analysis of analysis - the sort of thing you might get in a prolonged debate between an Orthodox rabbi and a Jesuit. I think we should simply acknowledge that comments are good (at least they demonstrate interest), well thought-out comments are better, and deep, penetrating insight is as valuable as it is rare. Then go ahead and take the comments we receive for what they seem to be worth, remembering always that pride and defensiveness are often a creative person's worst enemies. I certainly acknowledge that. However, the Duck has made it clear that if I comment, I should comment on all images. I do not agree with that assertion. Comment on whatever you choose to. My personal feeling is, if a submission has been made, and a commentator has chosen to make his opinion known for one, all are worthy of comment. Each of us has a particular sensitivity regarding the images we produce and then submit to scrutiny in the SI, or wherever we might share our images. We each make that effort. Then an individual who has taken the effort to comment on particular images for whatever reason, choses to deem some entries as unworthy of his comment, again for whatever reason demeans the effort made by a particular entrant. Imagine if you will, a first time SI entrant who is wary of taking that risk of submitting his/her work to an opinionated group of critics. This individual has seen comments made on entries in the past and hopes to learn something from comments made on their submission, only to find that their images don't interest one commentator, or have been deemed unworthy of comment. Personally I would find that extremely discouraging and would think twice about submitting any of my images to a group which places no value in my participation. Now imaging just how enthusiastic you might feel about the SI if all those who comment might just totally ignore any of your entries because they don't like your particular style and don't care to comment . Try going for two or three months with nary a word on your images, you might just stop shooting for the SI and sharing your images. I can only think there might be some folks who will think, "Damn! I've gone to the trouble of submitting an image to this SI thing, and nobody even takes the trouble to say they don't care for my work. **** them!" Anyway It would get to be very much a case of, here is what I have to say about these 5 or so images. I can't think of a thing to say about the rest. I ought to try that sometime, it would cut down on the effort I put into my minimalist comments. ....or perhaps we should just agree to forego comments at all, then we could truly watch the SI die on the vine. If you are arguing that comments are good, I agree. If you are saying that more comments are better, I agree, to the extent that the additional comments are meaningful. So we agree. ;-) What I can't agree on is that no comments are better than some comments. Since I didn't actually say that no comments were better than some comments, I must be at fault for not explaining myself clearer. I was formulating a worst case scenario. My intent was to show that a lack of comments, good, bad, or indifferent, confirmatory of another's opinion, good or bad, or an absence of thoughts on a fix, or the lack of an observation on how a pleasing effect was achieved, tend to discourage entrants and participation in the SI, or any other type of event. Think of your camera clubs and any in club competitions and critique sessions they might hold. How would you feel if the judges and critics bypassed your entries month after month without comment, or even remark as to why they were ignoring your work. I might find that discouraging, as I am sure you would. It would quickly become one of those clubs, Groucho, you, and I would not want to be a member of. My point was if all those of us who actually write comments, however valuable, for the complete monthly SI entry gallery, are for whatever reason are unable to comment, or just feel not up to making comments for a particular month, those who anticipate comments would surely be disappointed. Then if the only comments came from those who cherry picked images to comment on, there would be a bad taste of being ignored experienced by those shooters of images not commented on. No comments is not a good thing, cherry picking images for commentary is also not a good thing and has the potential to discourage some shooters leading to an SI drop out. So again, we agree. ;-) Comments are good. Comments for all are better. ....but do as you please. That we may agree on most points is not the issue. A frank discussion is more important. As I stated earlier, I consider that as the recipient of comments, I have a moral obligation to help others with my comments. That concept is indeed what keeps the SI going. I detest the flaccid comments on other forums. They are, to be kind, contra helpful. I spend some time trying to make helpful comments, without feeling repetitive. Sorry! that's me. I recently asked on of the members of my CC for a comment. I recognized it was not a great image and was seeking advice. His reply was that he had seen much better work from me, and the image was beyond fixing. What I considered the main POI, he considered trivial and trite. Since I know his comment to be honest, I revisited my image. In retrospect he was right. That image will never again see the light of day. The SI is a two edged sword, making the effort to submit images, and when there are comments made, respond appropriately. For all of this to work, those who's work is commented on, have to drop defensive attitudes and understand that if the constructive criticism is made sincerely without malice, there might just be something to be learned. Just like Usenet, the SI is not a place sensitive souls will flourish. I know that in my case, as soon as I perceive a negative remark, I start to bristle reflexively to defend my work. I stop, take a deep breath and consider the source of the remark, and most importantly revisit my image to look at it through fresh eyes. Most times the issue I had been blind to, will stick out like a sore thumb, and I will work at it anew or move on with a lesson learned. There have been times I have thought remarks made about some of my images were cruel, malicious, and nit-picky, but ultimately I have had to concede that a fix or disposal was needed, bring my damaged pride to heel and get to work. My hope is, all contributors to the SI will hold their breath when a correction or change is suggested, or if the commentator finds the particular subject or genre is not a match for their taste, before responding to the comment. The most benign position would be to agree to disagree. The best, would be to recognize an issue and readdress the work for improvement or even a reshoot, perhaps at a different time of day. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#18
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Pairs comments - Alan B.
"otter" wrote in message
... "Why ..." pursing his lips and looking toward a sympathetic and equally amused wall, "why, I don't specifically THINK of it. I just rather like it, is all." I've got fed up discussing group dynamics, psychology and socialisation, game theory, and all that junk so rarely bother anymore but that's a timely intervention and rather good. -- Charles E. Hardwidge |
#19
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[SI] Pairs comments - Alan B.
On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 22:45:07 -0400, tony cooper
wrote: : On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 18:24:26 -0700, Savageduck : wrote: : : No comments is not a good thing, cherry picking images for commentary : is also not a good thing and has the potential to discourage some : shooters leading to an SI drop out. : : One problem with this theory is that sometimes we see nothing of : interest or positive to comment on in some images. I think I'm : probably too blunt the way it is. Sometimes it's kinder to not : comment. Kindness isn't the issue; honesty is. If you don't have something useful to say, say nothing. If you can give an honest, well thought out critique, do so. If the critique doesn't resonate with the submitter, (s)he's free to ignore it. Bob |
#20
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[SI] Pairs comments - Alan B.
"Robert Coe" wrote in message
... Kindness isn't the issue; honesty is. If you don't have something useful to say, say nothing. If you can give an honest, well thought out critique, do so. If the critique doesn't resonate with the submitter, (s)he's free to ignore it. I used to think "the truth" mattered more than anything else but where someone isn't capable and the emotional cost outweighs any advantage don't you think some degree of sensitivity to other not necessarily photography issues matter? Other people are not us, and sometimes it's easy to forget that. Why should we impose our ambitions on others? Perhaps their inclinations are in other directions? Yes, I've made those mistakes myself but, also, we can give credit where capability and talent do exist as well. I'm participating in an offline project and bringing a lot to the table but some of the people involved have issues. If I waded in some of them could be destroyed in a non-trivial way up to and including suicide which impressed on me that development isn't just about directing but nurturing as well. -- Charles E. Hardwidge |
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