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Leica M8 - is the lens mount THAT expensive?



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 20th 06, 09:52 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
Daniel Silevitch
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Posts: 380
Default Leica M8 - is the lens mount THAT expensive?

On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:18:30 GMT, Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
"Max Perl" wrote

Leica is good at mechanical work.....
but not very good at electronics?....
so hopefully they have got a partner to design and produce the electronic
part of the camera.


Panasonic?


The sensor is apparantly from Kodak. Scanning through the preview on
DPReview, there doesn't seem to be a mention of who made the processor
unit.

-dms
  #22  
Old September 20th 06, 09:57 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
Scott W
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Default Leica M8 - is the lens mount THAT expensive?

Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
There are very few true dogs in camera land. 99% of the
cameras work better than 99% of the photographers using them.

BTW this is total nonsense and you should know it. For the vast
majority of photo their camera is a bit limiting factor on how good
their photos look. If you are one of those people how is happy going
out and finding what you think is an interesting looking staircase and
photographing it to make it look artistic then sure any crap camera
will work. But most people have the subject they want to photograph in
mind when they set out to get a photo, whether it be sport, landscape
or photos of people.

Take a look at a bunch of photos form someone who was using a cheap
camera and much of what you are going to see is ugly, and it is not all
if any the fault of the person taking the photo. One of the big
advantages that a good camera gives you is being able to shoot using
available light and avoiding the really bad photos one gets when using
the on camera flash.

The test of a good camera is not can you get a good photo from it, the
test of a good camera is what range of conditions can you get a good
photo with it.

Give an average photographer a 5D and have them shoot a bunch of photos
and then give that same photographer a point and shot film camera
loaded with ISO 400 print film using a lens that does not go faster
then f/5.6 and let them take another set of photos, many photos from
the second set will look like crap.

Maybe the photos from the 5D will not hang on the walls of a museum,
but how many photographer are shooting for their photos to hand on a
museum wall? But that is not the point, the same photographer using a
better camera will get better photos.

Scott

  #23  
Old September 20th 06, 11:02 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
Tony Polson
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Default Leica M8 - is the lens mount THAT expensive?

"Nicholas O. Lindan" wrote:
A Leica is just a nice thing to have, it is beautifully
built, nice to hold, makes a nice sound ... but it takes
the same picture.


Takes the same picture? That isn't the case.

What is probably true is that you cannot tell much difference between
a Leica M lens *at f/8* and a Canon, Nikon, Minolta or Pentax lens at
f/8. But compare the lenses wide open and there is a world of
difference between the results; several of the current range of Leica
M lenses actually perform at their best wide open.

For example, the Leica M 24mm f/2.8 ASPH has a higher resolving power
at f/2.8-4.0 than any other brand of commercially available 24mm lens
at *any* aperture. The 21mm f/2.8, 35mm f/1.4 and f/2, 50mm f/1.0 and
f/1.4, 75mm f/2, 90mm f/2 and 135mm f/3.4 (all ASPH lenses) are also
superlative performers when used wide open.

With most brands of lens there is an imperative to use the lens at its
"sweet spot" wherever possible, because optical performance drops away
very rapidly as you open up beyond f/8 or so. But with modern Leica M
glass, you can effectively shoot at whatever aperture you need and get
outstanding results.

Note that these comments do not apply equally to Leica R glass,
especially in focal lengths of less than 50mm. Despite that, Leica R
wide angle lenses are still significantly superior in optical
performance to those from Canon, for example, which explains the
extreme popularity of Leica R to Canon EF mount adapters.

  #24  
Old September 20th 06, 11:15 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
Tony Polson
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Default Leica M8 - is the lens mount THAT expensive?

"Scott W" wrote:

The problem I see Leica having with this camera is that they are
missing the main selling point of a Leica. In the past many people
considered their cameras the best 35mm cameras available. But it is
the photos you care about and not the journey then there are much
better camera. And how many photographers are going to use a camera
that cost top dollar but does not produce top quality images? Is it
worth that amount of money to many people for the feel and sound of the
shutter (wish they messed up on the M8 anyway)?



People who think that Leica users place such a high priority on looks,
feel and sound are deluding themselves.

The #1 reason for using a Leica M rangefinder is the optical
performance of the lenses, which is simply outstanding, especially
when used wide open.

The #2 reason is the rangefinder focusing, which is extremely fast and
accurate.

You say there are "much better cameras". If you are shooting sport or
wildlife, I would agree; the rangefinder is not the best camera for
these tasks. But for those genres of photography that suit a
rangefinder camera, there is no better tool. There are certainly no
better lenses, and very few that even come close.

You don't even have to pay Leica prices; the Zeiss Ikon costs half the
price of a Leica M7 or MP body, and the Voigtländer Bessa R2A/M or
R3A/M costs about half the price of a Zeiss Ikon. They all have Leica
M mount and they all accept the superlative Leica M glass.

Leica M rangefinders are not for everyone. They are clearly not for
you, so why not just accept that and move on? Please don't criticise
something that you obviously don't understand.

  #25  
Old September 20th 06, 11:20 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
Tony Polson
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Default Leica M8 - is the lens mount THAT expensive?

Chris Loffredo wrote:

Is Leica too expensive? New stuff probably (and the M8 definitely!



I have to disagree. ;-)

I was very pleasantly surprised by the price of the M8. It was at
least GBP 500 (~US $900) less than I expected, and I am looking
forward to receiving mine.

The premium over the film M7 is about 50%, which is on the low side
when comparing digital SLR camera prices with their film cousins.

  #26  
Old September 20th 06, 11:22 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
Tony Polson
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Default Leica M8 - is the lens mount THAT expensive?

"Max Perl" wrote:

Leica is good at mechanical work.....but not very good at electronics?....so
hopefully they
have got a partner to design and produce the electronic part of the camera.

Is it possible to find a working R4 today?? .....I guess that most SL2's
still working.



Plenty of working R4 bodies available - just look on eBay! And plenty
of Minolta parts bodies available too. ;-)

The SL2s will probably still work after a 23rd century nuclear
holocaust - they were simply *too* well made.

  #27  
Old September 20th 06, 11:25 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
Tony Polson
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Default Leica M8 - is the lens mount THAT expensive?

Daniel Silevitch wrote:

The sensor is apparantly from Kodak. Scanning through the preview on
DPReview, there doesn't seem to be a mention of who made the processor
unit.



Leica have sensibly avoided Imacon, who let Leica down very badly with
the Digital Modul-R (the DMR is a fine unit but the delivery rate has
been painfully slow). The M8 electronics were designed by a respected
German company, but I am sorry I cannot recall the name.


  #28  
Old September 20th 06, 11:52 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
William Graham
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Default Leica M8 - is the lens mount THAT expensive?


"Kinon O'Cann" wrote in message
news:UYdQg.1$1B.0@bos-

Then
again, to put things in perspective a Patek Phillipe men's watch STARTS
at $12000, but a Leica isn't made of gold.

An excellent analogy......There are dozens (perhaps hundreds) of watches on
the market that can (and do) tell time as well as a Patek Phillipe. So, the
owners of such a watch are wearing jewelry, and not time keepers. - Much the
same thing might be said of the owners of Leicas. It may capture images as
well or better than anything else on the market, but to pay $5K for one, and
over $1k per lens, is a bit of overkill for the minute, mostly unobservable
difference, don't you think? So, the Leica owners are basically carrying
jewelry, rather than cameras. And, in doing so, they give up one important
thing. They can no longer blame their equipment for their bad photos....:^)


  #29  
Old September 21st 06, 12:04 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
William Graham
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Posts: 4,361
Default Leica M8 - is the lens mount THAT expensive?


"jeremy" wrote in message news:LRfQg.26$Kh.1@trnddc05...

"Rich" wrote in message
ups.com...

Kinon O'Cann wrote:
This question has been asked many, many times, and long before the first
digital camera was produced. Leica builds a premium quality camera for a
small but dedicated group of shooters. The materials used and quality of
construction is absolutely unmatched. Simply put, Leicas aren't for
everyone. In the end, the decision is simple: it's up to you whether or
not
it's worth the money. Best lenses on the planet, too.


At about 650 grams, it costs $352 per oz. 1 oz of silver costs $12.00.
So, it costs less to mine and process and refine the equivalent amount
of silver
out of 29 tons of rock than the Leica is worth. The Leica, by weight
is about
1/2 the price of gold. Then again, something NASA might send into
orbit that size
might cost a few million $'s. A 16 meg medical grade CCD (if they
exist) would probably cost about $100,000. It's all relative.


There comes a point where the cost of the equipment is too high to justify
actually *using it.*

Even Erwin Puts has recently acknowledged that photographers, except for a
small band of dedicated ones, long ago abandoned the precision rangefinder
in favor of Japanese SLRs.

I've read about several informal "blind" tests where the participants were
unable to determine which camera took which photograph. Bob Monaghan did
one such test. So how much is Leica's legendary (or should I say,
"mythical") margin of superiority worth? Is there any photo taken with
Leica equipment that couldn't have been taken with a Nikon or even a
Minolta?

Probably not, but one still might justify owning a Leica based on
reliability, if one were accustomed to traveling to sufficiently remote
locations in order to take one's pictures. But for most of us "city" types,
spending $10 grand for an outfit when one can get just as good pictures with
$2 grand or less is a complete waste of money that could be increasing in
value if put into the right investments........


  #30  
Old September 21st 06, 12:04 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
nathantw
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Default Leica M8 - is the lens mount THAT expensive?


Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
[Gag reflex off]
It isn't about the destination but the journey.
[Gag reflex on]

A Leica is just a nice thing to have, it is beautifully
built, nice to hold, makes a nice sound ... but it takes
the same picture.


Before I decided on purchasing a new camera system I had two choices. I
could get a Hasselblad or a Leica M. I looked at the pros on cons of
both systems. The final determination was that the Leica, though well
made had too many reported QC problems from users (the frame counter
that stopped working for example) and frankly, it did exactly what my
Nikon was able to do - take photos with 35mm film. The pictures would
look slightly different (contrast, sharpness, etc.), but basically it
would be still taken on 24mmx36mm film. I got a Konica Hexar with
silent mode to make up for quiet operation. Yes, the Leica was quiet,
but it wasn't as quiet as the Hexar. The only option over the Hexar was
that the Leica had interchangable f/1.4 aperture lenses. I decided on
the Hasselblad and haven't regretted it. The large negative and the
quality of the equipment was really good. The pictures definitely
looked different when enlarged compared with 35mm.

Now it appears that Leica folks will be faced with the same situation I
faced a decade ago. Do they spend $5645 for a Leica M8 or $4500+ for a
Canon or Nikon SLR that will basically get them the same 10MP picture
(yes, the Canon and Nikon have more pixels...I know)? In fact the same
folks can spend $2000 for a Nikon D200 or one of those new Canon 10MP
cameras if they want a fair comparison. The whole idea is that you can
basically get the same thing with the same quality or sometime better
at a cheaper price.

The silence of the Leica shutter might be the determining factor for
some, others will be the lenses that they may already own, others will
be the operation and maybe even the Leica heft, but they really need to
ask themselves if all those are worth the price of admission. For me I
think I'll just buy another lens for my "obsolete" Hasselblad.

 




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