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Help me pick out a lens for the Nikon D80



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 30th 07, 05:51 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
C J Campbell
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Posts: 1,272
Default Help me pick out a lens for the Nikon D80

On 2007-04-29 07:42:03 -0700, RichA said:

On Apr 29, 4:39 am, "Gary Seven" wrote:
Hello all. Can some of you good folks here help me out here? I am thinking
about buying the Nikon D80. I don't want to start or hear flames either for
or against Canon/Nikon, just looking for some advice here.

I will probably go for the D80 mostly because it fits my hand much better
than say, the Canon 30D. There are other little "pleasantries" I like,
especially the viewfinder. I'm at a loss though, of the type of lens or
lenses to purchase with the body. There are two types of shooting that I
do: (1) family shots of my two little girls (indoor and outdoor) and (2)
landscape style photography, mostly of my vineyards here in Priorat (Spain).
Along those lines I like to do shots of vines, overall vine/row shots,
background "mountain" shots, and I would also like to do very close-up
(macro?) shots.

So what to do here? I have the feeling that buying just one lens (I assume
a tele-wide) will NOT be a one-size-fits-all solution. I get the feeling I
will need two, but simply don't know which way to go here. Of course, my
budget is not unlimited and I simply can't plop down another $2000 in glass
on top of the $900 I will be spending on the body.

Thoughts anyone? TIA.

G7


Get an 18-135mm ED DX and some screw-on macro lenses for the front.
$350 for that grouping.


Several reviewers have complained about chromatic aberrations and
distortion. The one good thing they have said it is sharp. Also, the
zoom ring is either too stiff or else it suffers from the same lens
creep as the 18-200. Build quality is inferior to that of the 18-200.
It also does not have VR, which is an attractive feature to everyone
except you. You are the only one who posts here who does not like it
and you have made the usual litany of over-the-top unsubstantiated
claims about it "ruining" your pictures (actually, you are a bad
photographer -- it is you that ruins your pictures if your recent
postings are anything to go by).

The more I read your posts, the more I understand that you are
considerably less expert than you think you are.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

  #22  
Old April 30th 07, 06:55 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Jürgen Exner
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Posts: 1,579
Default Help me pick out a lens for the Nikon D80

C J Campbell wrote:
As far as I know you are the only person I have ever heard of that has
said that the 60mm f/2.8 Micro-Nikkor does not perform well.


Thank you. I truely appreciate this clarification.

I readily admit that I don't own this lens. However I have been looking for
a macro lens for myself recently and the review at
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showp...duct/98/cat/12 for the
lens isn't all that great.
quote
At the end of the day, I'd have to say that this is only a mediocre lens,
not really worth its relatively high selling price.
/quote

Maybe the review is wrong, maybe they tested a lemon, maybe the reviewer
just had a bad day. I don't know. But if you are saying it's a decent lens
after all, then maybe I put it back on my list of candidates, too.

Thanks again

jue


  #23  
Old April 30th 07, 08:39 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
ASAAR
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Posts: 6,057
Default Help me pick out a lens for the Nikon D80

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 05:55:11 GMT, Jürgen Exner wrote:

As far as I know you are the only person I have ever heard of that has
said that the 60mm f/2.8 Micro-Nikkor does not perform well.


Thank you. I truely appreciate this clarification.

I readily admit that I don't own this lens. However I have been looking for
a macro lens for myself recently and the review at
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showp...duct/98/cat/12 for the
lens isn't all that great.


Not much information was provided as to how slrgear tested this
lens. Aperture and focal length (fixed at 60mm) was displayed in
interactive charts, but I didn't find any mention of the lens to
subject distance that was used for the tests. Were the distance the
same as was used in the tests for the 50mm f/1.4 and f/1.8 lenses?
Was it 6 inches? 10 feet? 20 meters? BTW, if you play with the
interactive chart, you'll see that almost all of the terrible blur
is gone by the time the lens is closed down one stop. Unfortunately,
the lens to subject distance wasn't shown, and it's an important
factor.

According to http://www.donferrario.com/ruether/slemn.html (David
Ruether's SUBJECTIVE Lens Evaluations) the 60mm f/2.8 Micro Nikkor
rated 3.5 at infinity and 5.2 at close distances, with the comment
that at infinity the poor performance wide open eventually became
excellent when closed down. Not surprising, since the Micro lenses
are really designed to be at their best at close distances. These
ratings ("subjective lens evaluation numbers") are described as:

3 -- fair image quality, perhaps good at one or two stops
4 -- good to excellent image quality at most normally used stops,
a professional-level lens, but with some limitations (this level,
with many fractional gradations, includes most Nikkors)
5 -- excellent image quality at all stops, with only minor limitations


So the lens had excellent performance at all stops at close
distances, and probably low quality wide open at infinity, but fair
to good performance at infinity when closed down. Slrgear's review
is incomplete and may well be misleading. Ruether also shows how
many lenses were used for the evaluations, which can range from 1 to
many. For the 60mm Micro two lenses were tested. Slrgear doesn't
provide this information, so the number of lenses tested is probably
one, which doesn't allow the reviewer to account for any sample
variation.

Interestingly, there are two different 105mm f/2.8 Micro Nikkor
lenses (an AF and a MF version) and Slgear prefers one of these to
the 60mm lens, but doesn't indicate which of the two was compared.
Ruether's ratings for both of these lenses (5 samples) were 4.4 and
4.8 at close distances, so according to his evaluations, the 60mm
lenses outperformed the 105mm lenses at close distances. At
infinity, the 105mm lenses outperformed the 60mm Micros, but if the
"Micro" designation means anything, their purpose in life is to be
used close up, not at infinity.

Also, there wasn't any mention that the 105mm lens underwent the
same tests. Just that the reviewer used one extensively on his own
D70 and in his opinion the 60mm lens didn't do as well wide open.
This sort of anecdotal comparison, while useful or interesting in
other types of reviews, isn't what belongs in what purports to be a
scientifically performed set of lens measurements and evaluations.
One would also like to see the charts for the 105mm Micro Nikkor,
perhaps some measure of flatness of field, and the aforementioned
lens to subject test distances.

Although it would require more work, the lenses would ideally also
be tested at several standard distances, allowing the results to be
compared with "standard" 50mm non-Micro lenses that undergo similar
tests.

  #24  
Old April 30th 07, 02:49 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Tuli
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Posts: 14
Default Help me pick out a lens for the Nikon D80

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-04-29 08:45:17 -0700, Rita Ä Berkowitz ritaberk2O04 @aol.com
said:

C J Campbell wrote:

I also like the 18-200mm VR lens. It focuses closely enough for light
macro work. It has enough telephoto to bring the mountains closer for
those background mountain shots. It has decent mid-range zoom for
portraits. It goes wide enough for landscapes.


TOTAL AND UTTER BULL****!


I see you labelled your post properly. It describes pretty much
everything that followed that line.


The 18-200mm VR does *NOT* do macro it does close-up work. It does
have a
decent FoV equivalent to a 135mm lens, but it would have been nice for
it to
have the same as a 200mm lens. The biggest problem with this lens is its
poor build quality and poor light gathering properties. The lens
creep and
many complaints of the front element working its way loose and falling
off
are totally unacceptable. And what compounds the problem is the need to
have a lot of light to wake this lens up. I find it near impossible to
shoot below ISO 400 and +0.7 EV compensation. It's a decent walk around
lens in principle, but takes a lot of work to get used to if you are
accustomed to shooting with good glass. It's overpriced for what you
get.
Fortunately I was able to sell a total of three of these dogs to
offset the
cost of justify keeping mine. At $750 it is a rip-off and Nikon
should be
ashamed of themselves. Pity the fool that paid more than $750 MSRP,
though
I'm glad they do.


You say close-up; I say light macro, which is probably not as
technically correct but still reasonable. The lens has the FOV of a
200mm lens when focused at infinity, which is what the OP would be doing
when taking pictures of distant mountains. That is what he wanted it
for, after all. Poor build quality and poor light gathering qualities
are subjective. Most reviewers rave about this lens. You, OTOH, have a
hatred that borders on psychopathic. "Many" complaints about the front
element falling off? Nonsense. This is a new complaint that you made up.
Neither is lens creep unique to this lens. It is common to nearly all
lenses in the price range that the OP was talking about. Not everyone
can afford to spent $1500 on a lens, Rita.

The biggest lens creep around here is you. I have had it with your
unsubstantiated claims.

Just once I would like to see where you showed that you knew what you
were talking about. The fact is, the few pictures you have posted have
been very inferior work.


Thanks, C.J., I agree. The 18-200mm VR is an excellent, sharp lens,
and very versatile. I've been very happy with it and recommend it
highly as an all-in-one.

Tuli
  #25  
Old April 30th 07, 03:29 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
tomm42
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Posts: 682
Default Help me pick out a lens for the Nikon D80

On Apr 29, 4:39 am, "Gary Seven" wrote:
Hello all. Can some of you good folks here help me out here? I am thinking
about buying the Nikon D80. I don't want to start or hear flames either for
or against Canon/Nikon, just looking for some advice here.

I will probably go for the D80 mostly because it fits my hand much better
than say, the Canon 30D. There are other little "pleasantries" I like,
especially the viewfinder. I'm at a loss though, of the type of lens or
lenses to purchase with the body. There are two types of shooting that I
do: (1) family shots of my two little girls (indoor and outdoor) and (2)
landscape style photography, mostly of my vineyards here in Priorat (Spain).
Along those lines I like to do shots of vines, overall vine/row shots,
background "mountain" shots, and I would also like to do very close-up
(macro?) shots.

So what to do here? I have the feeling that buying just one lens (I assume
a tele-wide) will NOT be a one-size-fits-all solution. I get the feeling I
will need two, but simply don't know which way to go here. Of course, my
budget is not unlimited and I simply can't plop down another $2000 in glass
on top of the $900 I will be spending on the body.

Thoughts anyone? TIA.

G7


The first two I'd look at are the Nikor 18-70, and older kit lens but
has a fan base, kind of slow at f3.5-4.5, or the Tamron 17-50 f2.8,
this is a very nice lens. The get the Nikor 70-300 VR there have been
very good reports on this lens too. The Tamron and the 70-300 will run
just under $1000. I really think this is you best bang for the buck.

Tom

  #26  
Old April 30th 07, 04:47 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
David Ruether
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Posts: 495
Default Help me pick out a lens for the Nikon D80



"Jürgen Exner" wrote in message news:[email protected]
C J Campbell wrote:


As far as I know you are the only person I have ever heard of that has
said that the 60mm f/2.8 Micro-Nikkor does not perform well.


Thank you. I truely appreciate this clarification.

I readily admit that I don't own this lens. However I have been looking for a macro lens for myself recently and the review at
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showp...duct/98/cat/12 for the lens isn't all that great.
quote
At the end of the day, I'd have to say that this is only a mediocre lens, not really worth its relatively high selling price.
/quote

Maybe the review is wrong, maybe they tested a lemon, maybe the reviewer just had a bad day. I don't know. But if you are saying
it's a decent lens after all, then maybe I put it back on my list of candidates, too.


See my comments on the Nikkor 60mm f2.8 on my Nikkor comparison
list, at www.donferrario.com/ruether/slemn.html (keeping in mind that
all of the ratings and comments are based on full-frame film coverage).
For the smaller digital sensor area, the reservations I had about the
60mm near infinity focus with FF do not apply, and it is otherwise a
superb lens. Since the 50-100mm range of lens FLs is especially easy
to design for excellent performance, most of these lenses by all
manufacturers tend to be at least very good.
--
David Ruether

http://www.donferrario.com/ruether


  #27  
Old April 30th 07, 05:01 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Neil Harrington
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,001
Default Help me pick out a lens for the Nikon D80


"C J Campbell" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
On 2007-04-29 07:42:03 -0700, RichA said:



Get an 18-135mm ED DX and some screw-on macro lenses for the front.
$350 for that grouping.


Several reviewers have complained about chromatic aberrations and
distortion. The one good thing they have said it is sharp. Also, the zoom
ring is either too stiff or else it suffers from the same lens creep as
the 18-200. Build quality is inferior to that of the 18-200.


Also the 18-135 has the same plastic lens mount as the 18-55 and 55-200,
which some find a bit off-putting. I have the 18-55 and 55-200 myself, find
both plenty sharp in general use and like them very much for what evidently
is their intended purpose, inexpensive lightweight lenses to go with the
inexpensive lightweight D40. The plastic lens mount may last forever for all
I know, but I'd have a lot more confidence in it if it were metal.

Neil


  #28  
Old April 30th 07, 05:38 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Neil Harrington
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Posts: 2,001
Default Help me pick out a lens for the Nikon D80


"Rita Ä Berkowitz" ritaberk2O04 @aol.com wrote in message
...
C J Campbell wrote:

The 18-200mm VR does *NOT* do macro it does close-up work. It does
have a decent FoV equivalent to a 135mm lens, but it would have been
nice for it to have the same as a 200mm lens. The biggest problem
with this lens is its poor build quality and poor light gathering
properties. The lens creep and many complaints of the front element
working its way loose and falling off are totally unacceptable. And
what compounds the problem is the need to have a lot of light to
wake this lens up. I find it near impossible to shoot below ISO 400
and +0.7 EV compensation. It's a decent walk around lens in
principle, but takes a lot of work to get used to if you are
accustomed to shooting with good glass. It's overpriced for what
you get. Fortunately I was able to sell a total of three of these
dogs to offset the cost of justify keeping mine. At $750 it is a
rip-off and Nikon should be ashamed of themselves. Pity the fool
that paid more than $750 MSRP, though I'm glad they do.


You say close-up; I say light macro, which is probably not as
technically correct but still reasonable.


Right! What the hell does "light macro" mean? Either use the terminology
right or don't use it at all. There are people new to this group that
might
mistake you for having a clue as to what you are talking about.


What's the "right terminology" for this anyway, and how is it determined?
"Close-up" is not at all specific. Some insist true macro must mean going
down to 1:1, but there have been several genuine macro lenses that only go
to 1:2 and many zoom lens makers call their products "macro" when they go to
1:4. The term is loose at best, and "people new to this group" might as well
learn that early on.



Poor build quality and poor light gathering
qualities are subjective. Most reviewers rave about this lens. You,


Which reviewers would these be? I mean the ones without a vested interest
in pushing this lens?


Well, I've had one for a couple of weeks, I'm prepared to rave about it and
I have no "vested interest in pushing this lens." I think it's an absolutely
fabulous, glorious, supercalifragilisticexpialidocious lens.



OTOH, have a hatred that borders on psychopathic. "Many" complaints
about the front element falling off? Nonsense. This is a new complaint
that you made up. Neither is lens creep unique to this lens. It is
common to nearly all lenses in the price range that the OP was talking
about. Not everyone can afford to spent $1500 on a lens, Rita.


Hey, I don't hate the lens, in fact I think in principle and concept of
turning a D200 or a D2x into a P&S on steroids is awesome. On the other
hand, I guess one could buy a decent P&S for $750 that will perform almost
as well.


I . . . don't . . . think . . . so. I have all of Nikon's last and finest
Coolpix "prosumer" models, which is the sort of thing I suppose you mean by
"P&S," and while the 8700 and 8800 are wonderful cameras they are certainly
not comparable to the 18-200 on an SLR.


As for the front element falling off, it is a legitimate complaint and
very
common. If you don't believe me just check the front of your 18-200.


I've just checked the front of mine and I'm happy to report it isn't falling
off. When is this supposed to happen? Where are the reports of this "very
common" complaint?


The biggest lens creep around here is you. I have had it with your
unsubstantiated claims.


LOL! You're a fool if you find it acceptable for a $750 lens to have lens
creep and other QA problems.


I don't see lens creep as being a "QA problem," and mine hasn't crept
anyway, so far. But then I carry it with the lens shortened. I read
somewhere that the lens creep mostly occurs when the camera is carried with
the lens somewhere in mid-zoom, which seems to make sense. If mine (which is
still quite new) does eventually creep I still won't see it as a quality
problem. The part of the lens that extends has some weight, after all, and
there's a reasonable limit to how stiff one wants the zoom control to be.

Neil


  #29  
Old April 30th 07, 05:48 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
ASAAR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,057
Default Help me pick out a lens for the Nikon D80

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:38:56 -0400, Neil Harrington wrote:

Which reviewers would these be? I mean the ones without a vested interest
in pushing this lens?


Well, I've had one for a couple of weeks, I'm prepared to rave about it and
I have no "vested interest in pushing this lens." I think it's an absolutely
fabulous, glorious, supercalifragilisticexpialidocious lens.


But it might not be as good as you think. After all, when used in
Antarctica one was known to fall apart. Don't go there, hear? g

  #30  
Old April 30th 07, 07:36 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Alexander Arnakis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 101
Default Help me pick out a lens for the Nikon D80

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:39:07 +0200, "Gary Seven"
wrote:

Hello all. Can some of you good folks here help me out here? I am thinking
about buying the Nikon D80. I don't want to start or hear flames either for
or against Canon/Nikon, just looking for some advice here.

I will probably go for the D80 mostly because it fits my hand much better
than say, the Canon 30D. There are other little "pleasantries" I like,
especially the viewfinder. I'm at a loss though, of the type of lens or
lenses to purchase with the body. There are two types of shooting that I
do: (1) family shots of my two little girls (indoor and outdoor) and (2)
landscape style photography, mostly of my vineyards here in Priorat (Spain).
Along those lines I like to do shots of vines, overall vine/row shots,
background "mountain" shots, and I would also like to do very close-up
(macro?) shots.

So what to do here? I have the feeling that buying just one lens (I assume
a tele-wide) will NOT be a one-size-fits-all solution. I get the feeling I
will need two, but simply don't know which way to go here. Of course, my
budget is not unlimited and I simply can't plop down another $2000 in glass
on top of the $900 I will be spending on the body.

Thoughts anyone? TIA.

It's all a matter of preference, of course. If it were my choice, I
would get a fast prime lens, like the 35mm f/2 AF-D Nikkor. A zoom
gives you more versatility, but at the price of bulk and slow speed.

 




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