Calumet files Chapter 7

In article , nospam
wrote:

competitive doesn't mean below cost.

however, it does mean not charging as much as twice the price as
available elsewhere, for the same item.

offer products and services to make customers want to buy from you,
otherwise they aren't going to. it's really that simple.

either adapt to the changing landscape of online shopping or be gone.
that's harsh but that's just how it is.

You really don't want to be swayed from your agenda, do you?

You seem to want "competitive pricing." Would you care to define that
for me? Granted, I've been out of the business a long time, but things
don't seem to have changed - only difference is, customers order from a
web page, not over the phone. And, to be honest, some of the very worst
mail order scum have been put out of business.

Now, when I left the business, I had three stores, so I wasn't the
tiniest of the tiny. Keeping the doors open, paying and training staff,
incoming shipping, all the little things that put a camera on the
counter for you to look at, cost about 12-15% over the cost of goods.
In other words, if the invoice for a camera read $100, I was selling at
a loss if the price didn't exceed $112. Then, there's that troublesome
little "profit" thing, so add another 5-7%. So, the selling price goes
to at least $117.

Now, the mail order/internet seller, with his lower costs and much,
much larger volume is selling the same item for $99. It probably cost
him $92. Who's in the wrong here? Customers vote with their wallet;
they've voted that all the services I offered like demonstration, free
training, rental darkroom, contests, photo gallery, equipment rentals,
etc. were not worth eighteen dollars to them. I get that, I'm not in
that business anymore. Nor are a lot of other people.

Now, here's a challenge for you: SHOW US a camera (not a lens cap or a
battery) that sells for twice at much in a retail store as through a
mail order house. Exact same, current model and brand, that is, say,
$200 at Cardinal Camera in Lansdale Pa. and $100 at B&H in New York. Or
any other comparable vendors.

In the meantime, stop making out like small resellers are doing
anything "wrong" - other than trying to best serve their customers, and
the customers want "cheap" over "full service."

On 2014-03-25 14:25:09 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

On Tue, 25 Mar 2014 09:56:49 -0400, Scott Schuckert
wrote:

In article , nospam
wrote:

competitive doesn't mean below cost.

however, it does mean not charging as much as twice the price as
available elsewhere, for the same item.

offer products and services to make customers want to buy from you,
otherwise they aren't going to. it's really that simple.

either adapt to the changing landscape of online shopping or be gone.
that's harsh but that's just how it is.

You really don't want to be swayed from your agenda, do you?

nospam goes into every discussion thinking that his position is the
only right position.

He makes much of the fact that in some retail stores the sales help is
either not informative enough or that they push accessories to
increase the sale.

What he ignores is that in *all* purchases online, there is no sales
help available. Any help the customer gets at a retail store is more
than what any online seller offers. If nothing else, the buyer at a
retail store gets to handle the camera before purchase.

It's always the buyer's responsibility to do their own homework.
There's no reason the in-store buyer can't check the reviews and
customer ratings of something before they make the purchase.

One of the reasons both B&H and Adorama are so successful as online
stores, other than large and varied inventory, is they are solid
retailers first. They have done the best to bring the experience of
shopping in either of their stores to the online customer. Not every
online outlet has a Henry Posner, or a Helen Oster. Both stores provide
online training and tutorials along with videos of some of their in
store seminars and presentation. Most importantly, other than giving
you a camera to handle prior to purchase they have good information and
advice available for the asking, it is right there if the customer
needs it.

....and both have have good return policies.

I may be a bit prejudiced in favor of the retail store because the two
camera stores in Orlando are both staffed by knowledgeable and helpful
staff. But, if I go to a big box store and deal with a sales person
that doesn't know the difference between a interchangeable lens body
and a fixed lens body, that's my fault.

Our (closed a year now) local bricks & mortar store, Jim's Campus
Camera, was staffed with some very knowledgeable staff and provided a
few jobs to local college students (Cal Poly). They provided a center
for photography seminars & tutorials, wet processing, some custom
printing. However, as a store for a shopping experience they were very
much a *Canon* store. So, the users of any other brand were limited to
seeing a handful and small selection of lenses in a display case. I
never saw more than four Nikon lenses there ever, and no third party
lenses. Those were the choices they made to run their operation, but
it made life tougher for them when a dedicated Nikon, Panasonic, Sony,
Olympus, etc. shooter walked through their door.
They also did a fair business in antique and used equipment. My only
purchases there were some framing supplies, mattes, etc., a few
filters, and one Lowes bag.
There was no doubt that they provided good service when they could.
They never talked down to, or ignored non-Canon users, and understood
their operational limitations, but it handicapped them from day one.

....and now, after 40+ years they too are history.

Now, here's a challenge for you: SHOW US a camera (not a lens cap or a
battery) that sells for twice at much in a retail store as through a
mail order house. Exact same, current model and brand, that is, say,
$200 at Cardinal Camera in Lansdale Pa. and $100 at B&H in New York. Or
any other comparable vendors.

He won't be able to. That's typical hyperbole from nospam.

In the meantime, stop making out like small resellers are doing
anything "wrong" - other than trying to best serve their customers, and
the customers want "cheap" over "full service."


--
Regards,

Savageduck

In article 2014032508113233258-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
Savageduck wrote:

There was no doubt that they provided good service when they could.
They never talked down to, or ignored non-Canon users, and understood
their operational limitations, but it handicapped them from day one.

(GRIN) I was mostly a Canon shop, largely because the brand was popular
and far easier to deal with than EPOI (Nikon's distributor at the
time). But I did have Nikon, and also Olympus and Fuji. Rollei dealer,
too, though I kept no inventory.

Give you an idea how stupid and idealistic I was: When I opened my
second store, there was already a camera store in the town I wanted to
go into. I actually sat down and talked to him (single proprietor, very
small shop catering mostly to the older pros in the area.) Basically
asked his permission to be there, and tried to stay away from the
brands he emphasized. Never put anything he carried on loss leader.

I'm sure I didn't directly put him out of business, though no doubt I
hastened an already-in-progress decline. Made me sad when he retired.

Frankly, I'd give my left nut if I could still be earning a living in
the business.

In article , Tony Cooper wrote:

nospam:
competitive doesn't mean below cost.

however, it does mean not charging as much as twice the price as
available elsewhere, for the same item.

offer products and services to make customers want to buy from
you, otherwise they aren't going to. it's really that simple.

either adapt to the changing landscape of online shopping or be
gone. that's harsh but that's just how it is.

Scott Schuckert:
You really don't want to be swayed from your agenda, do you?

nospam goes into every discussion thinking that his position is the
only right position.

I'm just not what "position" that's supposed to be, here? I mean, the
points he posted above are just basic facts.

The first; "competitve doesn't mean below cost" is just a very truthful
statement. One can be competitive without undercutting competitors, just
look at Apple.

The next - competitive means not overcharging. I'm not sure this counts as
a "position", sounds reasonable enough. If you want to stay competitive,
don't overcharge for the same products as your competitors.

Next just sounds like logical demand vs. supply. Provide what your customer
want and they will buy it. Simple enough. Not a "position" contrary to
someone else's I'd wager.

The final statement, adapt or be extinct may indeed be harsh, but in retail
it is also very true.

In the end, these weren't his "positions" which the thinks is more "right"
than some countering "positions".

He makes much of the fact that in some retail stores the sales help
is either not informative enough or that they push accessories to
increase the sale.

But as you say, it's a fact that it does happen.

What he ignores is that in *all* purchases online, there is no sales
help available.

How did you determine that he "ignores" this? Where is the quote from
nospam where he made it clear that he is ignoring this aspect?

Plus, it's only half true - there are tons of sites out there that can help
you find your perfect TV set or gaming console if you just tell it what
parameters are important to you. Sure, there's rarely an online help staff
on online retail sites (but it does exist), but that doesn't mesn that one
can't make informed purchases online.

Any help the customer gets at a retail store is
more than what any online seller offers. If nothing else, the buyer
at a retail store gets to handle the camera before purchase.

That is, if the store has it in stock. Large electornic stores have the
most popular ones, but the small "brick and mortar" stores rarely do.

It's always the buyer's responsibility to do their own homework.
There's no reason the in-store buyer can't check the reviews and
customer ratings of something before they make the purchase.

Indeed.

I may be a bit prejudiced in favor of the retail store because the
two camera stores in Orlando are both staffed by knowledgeable and
helpful staff. But, if I go to a big box store and deal with a
sales person that doesn't know the difference between a
interchangeable lens body and a fixed lens body, that's my fault.

Oh? I mean.. how so? I mean, do you mean the mistake here wasn't that the
store doesn't have knowledgable people on staff - but rather that you
didn't know they didn't employ them and you went in there expecting help
when none could be found?

How would one go about to determine whether such staff is on the floor on
any given day - or even on the payroll at all?

If I visit a camera store (which I did today, actually) and they don't know
the very basics of photography, or the specifics of their in-store camera
models, then I have a hard time blaming myself.

Scott Schuckert:
Now, here's a challenge for you: SHOW US a camera (not a lens cap
or a battery) that sells for twice at much in a retail store as
through a mail order house. Exact same, current model and brand,
that is, say, $200 at Cardinal Camera in Lansdale Pa. and $100 at
B&H in New York. Or any other comparable vendors.

He won't be able to. That's typical hyperbole from nospam.

It may very well be hyperbole, but that's hardly uncommon in a discussion -
from either side I might add.

That said, I went in to this camera store today asking about soft boxes,
and they had a set with two flashes with soft boxes, price was SEK 4,999
($779) and online I found it for SEK 2,699 ($420). Not exactly half, but a
serious difference. That said, the store would probably have taken this
into account and adjusted their pricing had I told them about it. That's a
pretty important aspect of small retail stores, they value their customers
and are willing to adjust pricing when possible just to keep you as a
customer.


--
Sandman[.net]

In article , Sandman
wrote:

I'm just not what "position" that's supposed to be, here? I mean, the
points he posted above are just basic facts.

The first; "competitve doesn't mean below cost" is just a very truthful
statement. One can be competitive without undercutting competitors, just
look at Apple.

Apples and oranges, if I may be so bold. Apple doesn't compete with
anyone; no one but Apple (or it's very small number of authorized
resellers, who are tightly price-controlled) sells Apple products.

Back to the conversation, did you not understand the part of my prior
post - based on many years in the industry - where I explained that
selling below cost might not even match the price of some online
sellers? With that in mind, I'll ask you the same as I asked the other
guy - what's a competitive price? Match it? 5% more? 10%?

In article , Scott Schuckert wrote:

Sandman:
I'm just not what "position" that's supposed to be, here? I mean,
the points he posted above are just basic facts.

The first; "competitve doesn't mean below cost" is just a very
truthful statement. One can be competitive without undercutting
competitors, just look at Apple.

Apples and oranges, if I may be so bold. Apple doesn't compete with
anyone; no one but Apple (or it's very small number of authorized
resellers, who are tightly price-controlled) sells Apple products.

True, but I was mostly in reference to comparable products, not necessarily
the same products, but you have a point.

Back to the conversation, did you not understand the part of my
prior post - based on many years in the industry - where I explained
that selling below cost might not even match the price of some
online sellers?

What gave you the idea that I didn't "understand" that? I am well aware of
it.

With that in mind, I'll ask you the same as I asked the other guy -
what's a competitive price? Match it? 5% more? 10%?

For most smaller retail stores, the more important question is what's a
comparable *service*, not just the price of the product.

I.e., online you have the price of the service, the convenience of no
opening hours and the fact that you can shop in your underwear as typical
"pro" points, to mention a few

That said, some "cons" of online shopping is no hands-on-fiddling, no staff
to ask questions and no way to haggle for a better deal - again, to mention
a few.

So, the actual price of the product is just one parameter of many when you
decide how "competitive" a retail vendor is.

To bring up Apple again, their retail stores have long been pretty unique
in that they have real Macs and iPhones on display that you can use, they
have free wifi in the store and no checkout counter, everyone on the floor
can sell you any item at any point. That's a good example of a store
staying competitive without even mentioning price. And I mean competitive
when compared to other retail outlets, physical and online, not confined to
only Apple products.


--
Sandman[.net]

In article , Sandman
wrote:

So, the actual price of the product is just one parameter of many when you
decide how "competitive" a retail vendor is.

Well, you certainly SEEMED to make it about price. When I had my
stores, I offered all the amenities I mentioned before, and like to
think I did a good job at them. I still lost customers to mail order,
over price differences of 10% or less.

So I ask again, in two ways: On price, how close is close enough; on
services, what more do customers need to justify a price difference of,
say, 15% or 20%, my additional operating costs over the mail order
guys?

I already know the answer - customers won't pay for services. But
convince me...

In article , Tony Cooper wrote:

Tony Cooper:
What he ignores is that in *all* purchases online, there is no
sales help available.

Sandman:
How did you determine that he "ignores" this? Where is the quote
from nospam where he made it clear that he is ignoring this
aspect?

If it isn't stated, it's ignored.

Whoa! That quote is one for the archives. If it isn't stated, it's ignored.

While everything can't be stated, when the position is taken that retail
stores do not have helpful staff, and that there is an "online landscape"
to be reckoned with, the same analysis of the online landscape should be
addressed.

That's like saying that a retail store have ugly shelves and thus one is
forced to make a comment about online store's lack of shelves. Everyone
knows that there is next to no contact with staff on online stores. Why
state the obvious?

Sandman:
Plus, it's only half true - there are tons of sites out there that
can help you find your perfect TV set or gaming console if you
just tell it what parameters are important to you.

Within certain parameters that the *buyer* determines.

Not necessarily, While most of my experience is with swedish sites, I'm
sure comparable ones exists for the US. Sites that will give you some basic
questions to get you started in finding your product. Like if you're
looking for a TV, you get the questions whether you want 3D, how large it
should be, what price range you're interested in and so forth. We have
pricerunner and prisjakt (price hunt) as two examples here in Sweden.

Sandman:
Sure, there's rarely an online help staff on online retail sites
(but it does exist), but that doesn't mesn that one can't make
informed purchases online.

What does exist in online help is no more helpful to the buyer than
what is available in a poorly-staffed retail store. The buyer has
to know what to ask in both situations.

This I agree with. And it's pretty logical as well - staff, online or not,
can't be expected to educate each and every customer on what they need to
know, really. Unless you're a small brick and mortar store, which sort of
brings us full circle. With a smaller store, you usually get more helpful
staff (at least in the past) that really cared about getting the product
that fit you best since it would benefit them in the long run.

Tony Cooper:
Any help the customer gets at a retail store is more than what
any online seller offers. If nothing else, the buyer at a
retail store gets to handle the camera before purchase.

Sandman:
That is, if the store has it in stock. Large electornic stores
have the most popular ones, but the small "brick and mortar"
stores rarely do.

You may find that to be true in Sweden, but that's not the case in
most places here. The reference is to cameras, and the small camera
store is going to stock the same popular cameras that the big box
store stocks. They may not have as wide a selection, but that is
because the big box store carry things like GE point-and-shoots that
a respectable camera store wouldn't carry.

I'll look into it when I get to FLorida, but when I'm talking about large
stores, I talk about stores like MediaMarkt, a store that easily have some
90-100 different cameras on the shelves and some 40-50 lenses as well. A
small store just doesn't have the physical room for it, nor do they usually
have the economics to keep so many display units.

There are, of course, specialized camera stores in high end parts of some
towns here that are stocked from floor to ceiling with gear, but I wouldn't
really call them brick & mortar stores though. They're like MediaMarkt but
*just* the camera section

Tony Cooper:
I may be a bit prejudiced in favor of the retail store because
the two camera stores in Orlando are both staffed by
knowledgeable and helpful staff. But, if I go to a big box
store and deal with a sales person that doesn't know the
difference between a interchangeable lens body and a fixed lens
body, that's my fault.

Sandman:
Oh? I mean.. how so? I mean, do you mean the mistake here wasn't
that the store doesn't have knowledgable people on staff - but
rather that you didn't know they didn't employ them and you went
in there expecting help when none could be found?

It's my mistake if I discover that the staff person is without
sufficient basic knowledge and I continue to work with him instead
of walking out.

Well, sure, but it's hardly your mistake that the store didn't have
knowledgable staff employed. Maybe I just misunderstood you.

Sandman:
How would one go about to determine whether such staff is on the
floor on any given day - or even on the payroll at all?

You can't figure that out in two or three minutes?

Not unless I actually get in my car and drive down to the store and
interact with them, no. And that's a lot of time wasted there already.

Sandman:
If I visit a camera store (which I did today, actually) and they
don't know the very basics of photography, or the specifics of
their in-store camera models, then I have a hard time blaming
myself.

You should if you continue to shop there and end up buying something
that is not suitable for your needs.

Well, I think I misunderstood you - you would blame yourself if you
continued to take the advice of someone that doesn't know jack **** about
cameras - fine, that I can agree with. But I don't you can be blamed for
expecting a camera store (or camera department) employee to actually be
knowledgable about cameras. It's a pity we have to talk to each and every
one of them for a couple of minutes to vet them out.

Scott Schuckert:
Now, here's a challenge for you: SHOW US a
camera (not a lens cap or a battery) that sells for twice at
much in a retail store as through a mail order house. Exact
same, current model and brand, that is, say, $200 at Cardinal
Camera in Lansdale Pa. and $100 at B&H in New York. Or any
other comparable vendors.

Tony Cooper:
He won't be able to. That's typical hyperbole from nospam.

Sandman:
It may very well be hyperbole, but that's hardly uncommon in a
discussion - from either side I might add.

It removes him from any position of authority on the subject.

I'm quite sure that's ok with him. We all know the animosity you have
towards him and I don't think he's delusional to imagine that you consider
him an "authority" on anything. That said, exaggeration is done by most
people in a discussion, including you, so the same conclusion applies to
you as well.

Or, we could just identify the exaggeration and take it into account and
see the point for what it is rather than to nitpick on details.

It makes one doubt anything he says. While hyperbole is often used in
other cases, nospam and his "never", "always", "no one", "everyone", and
examples like this one, he's alone at the top in this department.

I'm sure you're quite aware that this applies as much to you as him. And me
as well, probably. It's easy to use absolutes in a discussion because it
gets the message across. Sometimes I call you on it and sometimes you call
me on it (difference being that I either retract or substantiate the claim
and you don't).

Sandman:
That said, I went in to this camera store today asking about soft
boxes, and they had a set with two flashes with soft boxes, price
was SEK 4,999 ($779) and online I found it for SEK 2,699 ($420).
Not exactly half, but a serious difference. That said, the store
would probably have taken this into account and adjusted their
pricing had I told them about it. That's a pretty important aspect
of small retail stores, they value their customers and are willing
to adjust pricing when possible just to keep you as a customer.

Unless you found the exact brand and exact components online (which
you didn't state to be the case), it's not a valid example.

"and online I found it for" was in reference to the exact same product.

Your example sounds fishy anyway. If this is a camera store that
you frequent with any regularity, and you are just now discovering
that they are out-of-line price-wise, one wonders why you ever
return.

They have pretty good service, and are knowledgable. Plus, as I said, they
can usually price-match their products or at least closely. This was just
one example from today, I bought my D800 and D4 from them and got a better
price than the online store I used for reference, so it can work both ways.


--
Sandman[.net]

In article , Scott Schuckert wrote:

So, the actual price of the product is just one parameter of many when you
decide how "competitive" a retail vendor is.

Well, you certainly SEEMED to make it about price.

When did I "SEEM" to make it about price?

When I had my stores, I offered all the amenities I mentioned before, and
like to think I did a good job at them. I still lost customers to mail
order, over price differences of 10% or less.

Yes, price is important. Plus, a lot of retail stores end up giving advice
to customers that buy the products online to save a buck. And when the
retail stores vanish, they miss out on the entire advice part.

So I ask again, in two ways: On price, how close is close enough; on
services, what more do customers need to justify a price difference of,
say, 15% or 20%, my additional operating costs over the mail order
guys?

Maybe you didn't understand my earlier answer to this question... You
snipped most of it away...

I already know the answer - customers won't pay for services. But
convince me...

Of what?


--
Sandman[.net]

On 3/25/2014 9:36 AM, PAS wrote:
"PeterN" wrote in message
On 3/24/2014 10:33 AM, PAS wrote:

snip

The U.S. Constitution does not give any authority to the federal
government
to compete with private business. The founders were distrustful of
government, and rightly so. The Constitution is designed to LIMIT the
power
of the federal government.


You got it backwards. the Constitution is designed to grant certain
limited powers to the Federal government.

We need go no further than the "savings clause." the Tenth amendment makes
it clear that the federal government has only only the enumerated powers.


Perhaps it's a matter of semantics but enumerating limited powers to the
federal government IS limiting their power which is what the Constitution
does. The 10th Amendment does indicate that the federal government is
limited to the powers granted to it by the Constitution. "The powers not
delegated to the United Stated by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to
the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." To
me, this makes it crystal clear the federal government has, for quite a long
time, acted unconstitutionally and continues to. The bailouts, the ACA, and
a whole host of others are unconstitutional.




the Constitution is not to be read literally. e.g. Freedom of speech
does not give anyone ot yell "fire" in a crowded theater. Freedom of
religion does not give the right to use illegal drugs, or commit bigamy,
etc.

The bailout is legal under the Commerce clause. If you fell the
government has actd illegally, you have a right to bring an action to
stop the action, provided you are harmed by it.


--
PeterN