Forced Flash During Daylight

On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 01:15:34 -0700 (PDT), pago wrote:
: I was shooting on a beautiful sunny day (9am – 2 pm) with my nikon
: d5000 kit lens (18-55). Due to the directional lighting of the sun, I
: set my camera to aperture priority and forced the on-camera flash to
: “fill’ in some shadows that I wanted to fill.
:
: Even though I had my on-camera flash set to TTL, some of my shots
: still turn out to be overly exposed, losing details and colour along
: the way.
:
: What can I do better next time?

Set a lower ISO number. You probably ran afoul of a phenomenon I became aware
of a few years ago on the beach at Ocean City. If you're using flash, even as
fill, the camera won't use a shutter speed so fast that the second curtain has
started to close before the first curtain has finished opening. If it did, not
all of the scene would see the flash. That limiting speed is usually around
1/200 second on a modern DSLR.

At least that's the way it works on my Canons. I suspect it's the same on a
Nikon.

Bob

On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:54:05 -0400, Robert Coe wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 01:15:34 -0700 (PDT), pago wrote:
: I was shooting on a beautiful sunny day (9am – 2 pm) with my nikon
: d5000 kit lens (18-55). Due to the directional lighting of the sun, I
: set my camera to aperture priority and forced the on-camera flash to
: “fill’ in some shadows that I wanted to fill.
:
: Even though I had my on-camera flash set to TTL, some of my shots
: still turn out to be overly exposed, losing details and colour along
: the way.
:
: What can I do better next time?

Set a lower ISO number. You probably ran afoul of a phenomenon I became aware
of a few years ago on the beach at Ocean City. If you're using flash, even as
fill, the camera won't use a shutter speed so fast that the second curtain has
started to close before the first curtain has finished opening. If it did, not
all of the scene would see the flash. That limiting speed is usually around
1/200 second on a modern DSLR.

At least that's the way it works on my Canons. I suspect it's the same on a
Nikon.

Bob

Most camera use a setting of 1/60 as the normal speed that both curtains are
open. This is the limit speed for inexpensive cameras, but better ones use multi
flashes during the exposure to cover the whole area. Most external flashes have
this capability, my Nikon can use the flash up to 1/8000 second.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 20:06:05 -0400, wrote:
: On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:54:05 -0400, Robert Coe wrote:
:
: On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 01:15:34 -0700 (PDT), pago wrote:
: : I was shooting on a beautiful sunny day (9am – 2 pm) with my nikon
: : d5000 kit lens (18-55). Due to the directional lighting of the sun, I
: : set my camera to aperture priority and forced the on-camera flash to
: : “fill’ in some shadows that I wanted to fill.
: :
: : Even though I had my on-camera flash set to TTL, some of my shots
: : still turn out to be overly exposed, losing details and colour along
: : the way.
: :
: : What can I do better next time?
:
: Set a lower ISO number. You probably ran afoul of a phenomenon I became aware
: of a few years ago on the beach at Ocean City. If you're using flash, even as
: fill, the camera won't use a shutter speed so fast that the second curtain has
: started to close before the first curtain has finished opening. If it did, not
: all of the scene would see the flash. That limiting speed is usually around
: 1/200 second on a modern DSLR.
:
: At least that's the way it works on my Canons. I suspect it's the same on a
: Nikon.
:
: Bob
:
: Most camera use a setting of 1/60 as the normal speed that both curtains are
: open.

The last camera I owned for which that value was so low was a Nikon S2 (which
I bought in 1958)! For midrange Canons, this is now around 1/200 to 1/250.

: This is the limit speed for inexpensive cameras, but better ones use multi
: flashes during the exposure to cover the whole area.

If that feature is selected.

: Most external flashes have this capability, my Nikon can use the flash up to
: 1/8000 second.

Multi-flash is a compromise, because

a) later flashes may be weaker than earlier flashes. (There's a limit to how
fast capacitors can be re-charged.) and

b) Because the flashes are discrete and the motion of the curtains isn't, even
lighting is hard to achieve.

That said, I have to admit that I haven't used multi-flash, so I may be all
wet. I doubt it, though.

And I stand by my analysis of Pago's problem.

Bob

writes:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:54:05 -0400, Robert Coe wrote:
Most camera use a setting of 1/60 as the normal speed that both
curtains are open. This is the limit speed for inexpensive cameras,
but better ones use multi flashes during the exposure to cover the
whole area. Most external flashes have this capability, my Nikon can
use the flash up to 1/8000 second.

This is out of date information. Vertical-curtain metal focal-plane
shutter ran the flash-sync speed (at which both curtains are fully open
at once) to 1/125 in the 70s, and then 1/250 in the 80s.

High-speed sync is an additional trick requiring cooperation between the
camera and the flash to allow flash at even higher speeds (useful mostly
for fill-flash). It GREATLY reduces the available flash power.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:14:33 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

writes:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:54:05 -0400, Robert Coe wrote:
Most camera use a setting of 1/60 as the normal speed that both
curtains are open. This is the limit speed for inexpensive cameras,
but better ones use multi flashes during the exposure to cover the
whole area. Most external flashes have this capability, my Nikon can
use the flash up to 1/8000 second.

This is out of date information. Vertical-curtain metal focal-plane
shutter ran the flash-sync speed (at which both curtains are fully open
at once) to 1/125 in the 70s, and then 1/250 in the 80s.

Depends on the camera, not the date

My 1975 Mamiya Sekor was 1/60

My 1995 Minolta X-9 was also 1/60

High-speed sync is an additional trick requiring cooperation between the
camera and the flash to allow flash at even higher speeds (useful mostly
for fill-flash). It GREATLY reduces the available flash power.

Thats true.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 21:12:21 -0400, Robert Coe wrote:

On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 20:06:05 -0400, wrote:
: On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:54:05 -0400, Robert Coe wrote:
:
: On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 01:15:34 -0700 (PDT), pago wrote:
: : I was shooting on a beautiful sunny day (9am – 2 pm) with my nikon
: : d5000 kit lens (18-55). Due to the directional lighting of the sun, I
: : set my camera to aperture priority and forced the on-camera flash to
: : “fill’ in some shadows that I wanted to fill.
: :
: : Even though I had my on-camera flash set to TTL, some of my shots
: : still turn out to be overly exposed, losing details and colour along
: : the way.
: :
: : What can I do better next time?
:
: Set a lower ISO number. You probably ran afoul of a phenomenon I became aware
: of a few years ago on the beach at Ocean City. If you're using flash, even as
: fill, the camera won't use a shutter speed so fast that the second curtain has
: started to close before the first curtain has finished opening. If it did, not
: all of the scene would see the flash. That limiting speed is usually around
: 1/200 second on a modern DSLR.
:
: At least that's the way it works on my Canons. I suspect it's the same on a
: Nikon.
:
: Bob
:
: Most camera use a setting of 1/60 as the normal speed that both curtains are
: open.

The last camera I owned for which that value was so low was a Nikon S2 (which
I bought in 1958)! For midrange Canons, this is now around 1/200 to 1/250.

The last camera I owned with that spec was a 1995 Minolta X-9.

: This is the limit speed for inexpensive cameras, but better ones use multi
: flashes during the exposure to cover the whole area.

If that feature is selected.

: Most external flashes have this capability, my Nikon can use the flash up to
: 1/8000 second.

Multi-flash is a compromise, because

a) later flashes may be weaker than earlier flashes. (There's a limit to how
fast capacitors can be re-charged.) and

The capacitor is not completely discharged with each shot, the energy taken is
about equal to what's needed for the shot divided by the number of flashes,
hence the very low flash power. In other words, if there was enough energy for 1
shot, the same energy would be divided up to make the total amount of flashes,
so 4 flashes would be 1/4 power each. The inverter may also be running at this
time.

b) Because the flashes are discrete and the motion of the curtains isn't, even
lighting is hard to achieve.

That said, I have to admit that I haven't used multi-flash, so I may be all
wet. I doubt it, though.

Maybe you should TRY it!

And I stand by my analysis of Pago's problem.

I think your analysis is wrong. He said some of his exposures were over exposed,
not partly exposed, which is what happens if you use standard flash with too
high a shutter speed. And if he was using multi-flash incorrectly, he would
probably get less light and under-exposure.

I've also had over exposed flash fill light pictures with my Nikon, and haven't
looked into it yet. (I don't do it much.) I assume I set the exposure mode
wrong, and should go to manual mode. Alan Browne had some good advice for this.

In article ,
writes
On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:14:33 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

High-speed sync is an additional trick requiring cooperation between the
camera and the flash to allow flash at even higher speeds (useful mostly
for fill-flash). It GREATLY reduces the available flash power.

Thats true.

Being pedantic, it isn't true at all.

HSS has exactly the same amount of flash power, but output over
approximately twice the maximum X-sync rate. It isn't the flash power
that is reduced in HSS, or even the available flash power, it is the
efficiency of transmitting that power to the sensor by the focal plane
shutter that is reduced. ;-)
--
Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's ****ed.
Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)

writes:

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:14:33 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

writes:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:54:05 -0400, Robert Coe wrote:
Most camera use a setting of 1/60 as the normal speed that both
curtains are open. This is the limit speed for inexpensive cameras,
but better ones use multi flashes during the exposure to cover the
whole area. Most external flashes have this capability, my Nikon can
use the flash up to 1/8000 second.

This is out of date information. Vertical-curtain metal focal-plane
shutter ran the flash-sync speed (at which both curtains are fully open
at once) to 1/125 in the 70s, and then 1/250 in the 80s.

Depends on the camera, not the date

My 1975 Mamiya Sekor was 1/60

My 1995 Minolta X-9 was also 1/60

There's always lag, and companies perceiving reasons to not use the
latest technology (including keeping prices down on low-end models), but
basically it DOES depend on the date.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 22:01:57 -0400, wrote:
: On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 21:12:21 -0400, Robert Coe wrote:
:
: On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 20:06:05 -0400, wrote:
: : On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:54:05 -0400, Robert Coe wrote:
: :
: : On Mon, 12 Sep 2011 01:15:34 -0700 (PDT), pago wrote:
: : : I was shooting on a beautiful sunny day (9am – 2 pm) with my nikon
: : : d5000 kit lens (18-55). Due to the directional lighting of the sun, I
: : : set my camera to aperture priority and forced the on-camera flash to
: : : “fill’ in some shadows that I wanted to fill.
: : :
: : : Even though I had my on-camera flash set to TTL, some of my shots
: : : still turn out to be overly exposed, losing details and colour along
: : : the way.
: : :
: : : What can I do better next time?
: :
: : Set a lower ISO number. You probably ran afoul of a phenomenon I became aware
: : of a few years ago on the beach at Ocean City. If you're using flash, even as
: : fill, the camera won't use a shutter speed so fast that the second curtain has
: : started to close before the first curtain has finished opening. If it did, not
: : all of the scene would see the flash. That limiting speed is usually around
: : 1/200 second on a modern DSLR.
: :
: : At least that's the way it works on my Canons. I suspect it's the same on a
: : Nikon.
: :
: : Bob
: :
: : Most camera use a setting of 1/60 as the normal speed that both curtains are
: : open.
:
: The last camera I owned for which that value was so low was a Nikon S2 (which
: I bought in 1958)! For midrange Canons, this is now around 1/200 to 1/250.
:
: The last camera I owned with that spec was a 1995 Minolta X-9.
:
: : This is the limit speed for inexpensive cameras, but better ones use multi
: : flashes during the exposure to cover the whole area.
:
: If that feature is selected.
:
: : Most external flashes have this capability, my Nikon can use the flash up to
: : 1/8000 second.
:
: Multi-flash is a compromise, because
:
: a) later flashes may be weaker than earlier flashes. (There's a limit to how
: fast capacitors can be re-charged.) and
:
: The capacitor is not completely discharged with each shot, the energy taken is
: about equal to what's needed for the shot divided by the number of flashes,
: hence the very low flash power. In other words, if there was enough energy for 1
: shot, the same energy would be divided up to make the total amount of flashes,
: so 4 flashes would be 1/4 power each. The inverter may also be running at this
: time.
:
: b) Because the flashes are discrete and the motion of the curtains isn't, even
: lighting is hard to achieve.
:
: That said, I have to admit that I haven't used multi-flash, so I may be all
: wet. I doubt it, though.
:
: Maybe you should TRY it!
:
: And I stand by my analysis of Pago's problem.
:
: I think your analysis is wrong. He said some of his exposures were over exposed,
: not partly exposed, which is what happens if you use standard flash with too
: high a shutter speed.

Not it isn't. Either I failed to make myself clear, or you weren't listening.
A Canon camera will REFUSE to use a shutter speed high enough to cause partial
exposure under the circumstances Pago described. The result is overexposure.
Been there, had that happen. If I wanted to bother (I don't), I could probably
drag out examples with the Exif data to prove it.

Nikon may be different. Pago's experience suggests otherwise.

Bob

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 18:29:14 +0100, Kennedy McEwen
wrote:

In article ,
writes
On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:14:33 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

High-speed sync is an additional trick requiring cooperation between the
camera and the flash to allow flash at even higher speeds (useful mostly
for fill-flash). It GREATLY reduces the available flash power.

Thats true.

Being pedantic, it isn't true at all.

HSS has exactly the same amount of flash power, but output over
approximately twice the maximum X-sync rate. It isn't the flash power
that is reduced in HSS, or even the available flash power, it is the
efficiency of transmitting that power to the sensor by the focal plane
shutter that is reduced. ;-)

You know I never tried it? I suppose I should, I just bought a new flash and
have been paying attention only to it's remote capabilities. I should get to
know all the capabilities of my equipment!