If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Lens question please_Gundlach, Turner-Reich series II No. 1
Hello LF public I recently bought a very old GTR triple convertable (5x5 glass), have been reading about them in public forums by search in Google and learnt that they have bad "chromatic aberation" (as it were), so it is necassary to use a yellow, orange or red filter on the front or back for sharpness. I read one fellow uses green. I would like to know which glass does what with which color of the spectrum so as to klnow which color filter to use! This would be interesting. I would use the filter on the front because I could also screw a lens shade into the filter. I wonder if I could find such an adapter for the front, if the front cell were not in use. But, this lens is a series II No. 1 patented in 1895, yet the rims do not state either of the focal lengths, and they are in an old wollensak Regno shutter (working!), which must have been a later adaptation, it has a proper triple aperture scale in brass (fancy work!). Would anyone know the focal lengths, and whether a cable or air hose can be adapted? It does have push button type finger release(s). Any help much appreciated, -- Giant_Alex })))* not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/ cravdraa - at - yahoo - dot - com |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Lens question please_Gundlach, Turner-Reich series II No. 1
"AAvK" wrote in message ... Hello LF public I recently bought a very old GTR triple convertable (5x5 glass), have been reading about them in public forums by search in Google and learnt that they have bad "chromatic aberation" (as it were), so it is necassary to use a yellow, orange or red filter on the front or back for sharpness. I read one fellow uses green. I would like to know which glass does what with which color of the spectrum so as to klnow which color filter to use! This would be interesting. I would use the filter on the front because I could also screw a lens shade into the filter. I wonder if I could find such an adapter for the front, if the front cell were not in use. But, this lens is a series II No. 1 patented in 1895, yet the rims do not state either of the focal lengths, and they are in an old wollensak Regno shutter (working!), which must have been a later adaptation, it has a proper triple aperture scale in brass (fancy work!). Would anyone know the focal lengths, and whether a cable or air hose can be adapted? It does have push button type finger release(s). Any help much appreciated, -- Giant_Alex })))* not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/ cravdraa - at - yahoo - dot - com Turner-Reich lenses were made until the late 1940's. The individual cells are not well color corrected so there is a noticable color fringe when they are used. When both cells are used the symmetry seems to cure this fringing so its probably lateral color. The use of a green filter should improve sharpness when a single cell is used. It seems to me without firing up my T-R and looking at the image that the worst fringing is red so a green filter would be better than a yellow one. If you use the single cells on the back of the shutter you can use a push on type adaptor on the lens cell just as you would in front. While the performance should, in principle, be optimum with the lens behind the stop, in practice it makes very little difference and the bellows draw needed is significantly less. I am surprized that your lens has no focal length markings. What markings does it have? Perhaps I can identify it. The patent notification may not mean much. I don't believe there was ever a law preventing the notice of a patent after the patent had expired. That would be 1912 for an 1895 patent. Basically, the T-R lens is a Zeiss convertible Protar with one of the elements split and replaced by two cemented elements. The lens was probably designed by Ernst Gundlach who used this trick on other lenses to avoid infringing patents. The extra element in the T-R has no benifit over the Protar and, in fact, the Protar seems to be a better lens. Turner and Reich were officers of the Gundlach company and probably had nothing to do with the design of the lens. A great many T-R lenses were made in the late 1930s into the WW-2 period to meet a government spec probably written around the Dagor. Most of these are in Ilex shutters. The Regno should have an air release nipple on the lower left (facing the shutter) at about8 o'clock. The setting lever is at about 4 o'clock and the releast lever at about 11 o'clock. The shutter is regulated by an air brake located under the cocking or setting lever. I don't know over what period the Regno was made but I think it was probably superceded by other shutters by the mid to late 1920's. Wollensak made good shutters. All the springs are hair springs and can be made from spring wire so the shutters can be maintained provided they don't need broken parts replaced. The T-R lens is capable of good results but was not one of the better LF lenses despite some pretty strong claims being made for it. Rudolf Kingslake has some biographical information about Ernst Gundlach. Evidently, he was a very difficult person who started and left several companies, eventually went back to Germany and disappeared into obscurity. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Lens question please_Gundlach, Turner-Reich series II No. 1
"Richard Knoppow" wrote in message ... "AAvK" wrote in message ... Hello LF public I recently bought a very old GTR triple convertable (5x5 glass), have been reading about them in public forums by search in Google and learnt that they have bad "chromatic aberation" (as it were), so it is necassary to use a yellow, orange or red filter on the front or back for sharpness. I read one fellow uses green. I would like to know which glass does what with which color of the spectrum so as to klnow which color filter to use! This would be interesting. I would use the filter on the front because I could also screw a lens shade into the filter. I wonder if I could find such an adapter for the front, if the front cell were not in use. But, this lens is a series II No. 1 patented in 1895, yet the rims do not state either of the focal lengths, and they are in an old wollensak Regno shutter (working!), which must have been a later adaptation, it has a proper triple aperture scale in brass (fancy work!). Would anyone know the focal lengths, and whether a cable or air hose can be adapted? It does have push button type finger release(s). Any help much appreciated, -- Giant_Alex })))* not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/ cravdraa - at - yahoo - dot - com Turner-Reich lenses were made until the late 1940's. The individual cells are not well color corrected so there is a noticable color fringe when they are used. When both cells are used the symmetry seems to cure this fringing so its probably lateral color. The use of a green filter should improve sharpness when a single cell is used. It seems to me without firing up my T-R and looking at the image that the worst fringing is red so a green filter would be better than a yellow one. What about for mono films? I think because of this problem I would never use this lens for color films! If you use the single cells on the back of the shutter you can use a push on type adaptor on the lens cell just as you would in front. While the performance should, in principle, be optimum with the lens behind the stop, in practice it makes very little difference and the bellows draw needed is significantly less. Interesting! Who sells these adapters? Is there a brand name? I am surprized that your lens has no focal length markings. What markings does it have? Perhaps I can identify it. Front lens rim says: " Gundlach Manhattan Opt. Co. Rochester, N.Y. Turner Reich Anastigmat F: 6.8 Series II No. 1 Pat. May 14 - 95" And then what looks to be a short five figure serial number with one or two letters, B6568 or another B as the last figure, I think. I can tell both cells have matching numbers. The rear cell has that number and "Turner Reich", and that's it. I suspect the "No. 1" is the key, if you have a production list? It might be for 4x5, or maybe related to image circle size, or the degrees of view angle. The patent notification may not mean much. I don't believe there was ever a law preventing the notice of a patent after the patent had expired. That would be 1912 for an 1895 patent. Basically, the T-R lens is a Zeiss convertible Protar with one of the elements split and replaced by two cemented elements. The lens was probably designed by Ernst Gundlach who used this trick on other lenses to avoid infringing patents. The extra element in the T-R has no benifit over the Protar and, in fact, the Protar seems to be a better lens. Yes, I read (online) that Edward Weston had a hard time with one and complained to Ansel Adams, who in return recommended a Zeiss Protar. Turner and Reich were officers of the Gundlach company and probably had nothing to do with the design of the lens. A great many T-R lenses were made in the late 1930s into the WW-2 period to meet a government spec probably written around the Dagor. Most of these are in Ilex shutters. The Regno should have an air release nipple on the lower left (facing the shutter) at about8 o'clock. The setting lever is at about 4 o'clock and the releast lever at about 11 o'clock. The shutter is regulated by an air brake located under the cocking or setting lever. This one seems different than your description. Let's say the aperture scale is on the bottom, one the face, and the shutter speed sacale is on top of the front face. There is a tall button of steel color at 10 o'clock and just to it's left, about 1/8" is a steel rimmed hole which is where I suspect there was installed that nipple for an air hose, not there now. At 2 o'clock is another button that is identicle to the on on the left. Both buttons are at the edge of the speed scale. The buttons and hole are on the rim. I don't know over what period the Regno was made but I think it was probably superceded by other shutters by the mid to late 1920's. Wollensak made good shutters. All the springs are hair springs and can be made from spring wire so the shutters can be maintained provided they don't need broken parts replaced. The T-R lens is capable of good results but was not one of the better LF lenses despite some pretty strong claims being made for it. Rudolf Kingslake has some biographical information about Ernst Gundlach. Evidently, he was a very difficult person who started and left several companies, eventually went back to Germany and disappeared into obscurity. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA -- Giant_Alex })))* not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/ |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Lens question please_Gundlach, Turner-Reich series II No. 1
"AAvK" wrote in message ... "Richard Knoppow" wrote in message ... "AAvK" wrote in message ... Hello LF public I recently bought a very old GTR triple convertable (5x5 glass), have been reading about them in public forums by search in Google and learnt that they have bad "chromatic aberation" (as it were), so it is necassary to use a yellow, orange or red filter on the front or back for sharpness. I read one fellow uses green. I would like to know which glass does what with which color of the spectrum so as to klnow which color filter to use! This would be interesting. I would use the filter on the front because I could also screw a lens shade into the filter. I wonder if I could find such an adapter for the front, if the front cell were not in use. But, this lens is a series II No. 1 patented in 1895, yet the rims do not state either of the focal lengths, and they are in an old wollensak Regno shutter (working!), which must have been a later adaptation, it has a proper triple aperture scale in brass (fancy work!). Would anyone know the focal lengths, and whether a cable or air hose can be adapted? It does have push button type finger release(s). Any help much appreciated, -- Giant_Alex })))* not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/ cravdraa - at - yahoo - dot - com Turner-Reich lenses were made until the late 1940's. The individual cells are not well color corrected so there is a noticable color fringe when they are used. When both cells are used the symmetry seems to cure this fringing so its probably lateral color. The use of a green filter should improve sharpness when a single cell is used. It seems to me without firing up my T-R and looking at the image that the worst fringing is red so a green filter would be better than a yellow one. What about for mono films? I think because of this problem I would never use this lens for color films! If you use the single cells on the back of the shutter you can use a push on type adaptor on the lens cell just as you would in front. While the performance should, in principle, be optimum with the lens behind the stop, in practice it makes very little difference and the bellows draw needed is significantly less. Interesting! Who sells these adapters? Is there a brand name? I am surprized that your lens has no focal length markings. What markings does it have? Perhaps I can identify it. Front lens rim says: " Gundlach Manhattan Opt. Co. Rochester, N.Y. Turner Reich Anastigmat F: 6.8 Series II No. 1 Pat. May 14 - 95" And then what looks to be a short five figure serial number with one or two letters, B6568 or another B as the last figure, I think. I can tell both cells have matching numbers. The rear cell has that number and "Turner Reich", and that's it. I suspect the "No. 1" is the key, if you have a production list? It might be for 4x5, or maybe related to image circle size, or the degrees of view angle. The patent notification may not mean much. I don't believe there was ever a law preventing the notice of a patent after the patent had expired. That would be 1912 for an 1895 patent. Basically, the T-R lens is a Zeiss convertible Protar with one of the elements split and replaced by two cemented elements. The lens was probably designed by Ernst Gundlach who used this trick on other lenses to avoid infringing patents. The extra element in the T-R has no benifit over the Protar and, in fact, the Protar seems to be a better lens. Yes, I read (online) that Edward Weston had a hard time with one and complained to Ansel Adams, who in return recommended a Zeiss Protar. Turner and Reich were officers of the Gundlach company and probably had nothing to do with the design of the lens. A great many T-R lenses were made in the late 1930s into the WW-2 period to meet a government spec probably written around the Dagor. Most of these are in Ilex shutters. The Regno should have an air release nipple on the lower left (facing the shutter) at about8 o'clock. The setting lever is at about 4 o'clock and the releast lever at about 11 o'clock. The shutter is regulated by an air brake located under the cocking or setting lever. This one seems different than your description. Let's say the aperture scale is on the bottom, one the face, and the shutter speed sacale is on top of the front face. There is a tall button of steel color at 10 o'clock and just to it's left, about 1/8" is a steel rimmed hole which is where I suspect there was installed that nipple for an air hose, not there now. At 2 o'clock is another button that is identicle to the on on the left. Both buttons are at the edge of the speed scale. The buttons and hole are on the rim. some snipping of my stuff here... -- Giant_Alex })))* not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/ I suspect this is a later version of the Regno than the one I was looking at. The publication this is in is dated 1917. The Optimo was another shutter also made by Wollensak. Older versions have a cocking lever at top right but later ones have a push-button and a matching button for tripping. This sounds similar. The hole near the tripping button is probably for a fitting for a cable release. The later version probably no longer has the air cylinder for an air release. You may want to open the shutter to see what's in it. The front of the Regno is held in place by three screws on the back. There are some early Gundlach and Wollensak catalogues on the Camera Eccentric site at: http://www.cameraeccentric.com I think he may also have the booklet on serviceing "Inter-Lens Shutters" on that site, I know I've seen in on-line somewhere. My Gundlach catalogue which is dated March 1926 shows the No.1 T-R to be a 6-3/4 inch lens for 4x5 plates. The individual cells a Front, 14" Rear, 11" Does that sound right for your lens? -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Lens question please_Gundlach, Turner-Reich series II No. 1
some snipping of my stuff here... -- Giant_Alex })))* not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/ I suspect this is a later version of the Regno than the one I was looking at. The publication this is in is dated 1917. The Optimo was another shutter also made by Wollensak. Older versions have a cocking lever at top right but later ones have a push-button and a matching button for tripping. This sounds similar. It exactly does. The hole near the tripping button is probably for a fitting for a cable release. The later version probably no longer has the air cylinder for an air release. Okay, but there are no threads there. You may want to open the shutter to see what's in it. The front of the Regno is held in place by three screws on the back. There are some early Gundlach and Wollensak catalogues on the Camera Eccentric site at: http://www.cameraeccentric.com I think he may also have the booklet on serviceing "Inter-Lens Shutters" on that site, I know I've seen in on-line somewhere. Yes I saw it, it seems there are two pages for each shutter, one is text and the other shows the workings with the cover removed. Doesn't make sense. My Gundlach catalogue which is dated March 1926 shows the No.1 T-R to be a 6-3/4 inch lens for 4x5 plates. The individual cells a Front, 14" Rear, 11" Does that sound right for your lens? Actually I havn't received the lens yet, it is in transport via UPS and will be here tomorrow on the 18th. I have seen other images of GTRs showing letter engravings on the outer side of the rims which are not showing in pics I did see, which I saved to my hard drive. I must have a pretty early one. But they they made them for a long enough time and must have been kept as standards for model numbers, I suspect it must be the same as your '26 catalogue. Which is fine with me, I have "something" of a 4x5... lol. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Lens question please_Gundlach, Turner-Reich series II No. 1
"AAvK" wrote in message ... some snipping of my stuff here... -- Giant_Alex })))* not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/ I suspect this is a later version of the Regno than the one I was looking at. The publication this is in is dated 1917. The Optimo was another shutter also made by Wollensak. Older versions have a cocking lever at top right but later ones have a push-button and a matching button for tripping. This sounds similar. It exactly does. The hole near the tripping button is probably for a fitting for a cable release. The later version probably no longer has the air cylinder for an air release. Okay, but there are no threads there. The fitting may be missing. On most shutters the cable release socket is a separate part held in with a nut or clip or some other way. I've had to makeshift sockets for a couple of Ilex shutters were they were missing. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Lens question please_Gundlach, Turner-Reich series II No. 1
Okay, but there are no threads there. The fitting may be missing. On most shutters the cable release socket is a separate part held in with a nut or clip or some other way. I've had to makeshift sockets for a couple of Ilex shutters were they were missing. Ya know what? I just got the lens, and in that hole there ARE threads there! They just didn't show it in the shots they took for ebay. But the threads are different than the modern tapered standard, just no taper, straight walls with threads. I attempted to use a tapered thread cable release, the threads at the widest did catch at the top of the hole and it did trip the shutter but I know now that I need a short throw / short pin type, with this older style of non tapered thread. Do you know what I can do about that? Or, where the right one can be found? Maybe a bushing adapter is out there? The glass in this lens is beautiful to look at, though there is some crystalization of the adhesive they used, around the edges of the front cell. A very little around the rear cell's edge, it's workable (the seller dod not reveal this on their page). No yellowing in the glass ttlg. A bit of a stop-down should cancel any possible effect. This is a very small lens and shutter! So it must be for 4x5 indeed. The front cell is 14" and the rear is 11" just as you described! 6-3/4" together. So that's 171.45mm, 279.4mm, and 355.6 - all with an image circle that will cover 4x5" only? Would you know what the image circles are, from your books? The Regno works like a charm all around, but not tight like a newer one, or a compound. Definitely light-tight though, I took a good close look using light. The two patent dates are as follows: May 30 1911 and Aug 13 1912. So this shutter is around 100 years old. Lovely device. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA -- Giant_Alex })))* not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/ |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Lens question please_Gundlach, Turner-Reich series II No. 1
"AAvK" wrote in message ... Okay, but there are no threads there. The fitting may be missing. On most shutters the cable release socket is a separate part held in with a nut or clip or some other way. I've had to makeshift sockets for a couple of Ilex shutters were they were missing. Ya know what? I just got the lens, and in that hole there ARE threads there! They just didn't show it in the shots they took for ebay. But the threads are different than the modern tapered standard, just no taper, straight walls with threads. I attempted to use a tapered thread cable release, the threads at the widest did catch at the top of the hole and it did trip the shutter but I know now that I need a short throw / short pin type, with this older style of non tapered thread. Do you know what I can do about that? Or, where the right one can be found? Maybe a bushing adapter is out there? The glass in this lens is beautiful to look at, though there is some crystalization of the adhesive they used, around the edges of the front cell. A very little around the rear cell's edge, it's workable (the seller dod not reveal this on their page). No yellowing in the glass ttlg. A bit of a stop-down should cancel any possible effect. This is a very small lens and shutter! So it must be for 4x5 indeed. The front cell is 14" and the rear is 11" just as you described! 6-3/4" together. So that's 171.45mm, 279.4mm, and 355.6 - all with an image circle that will cover 4x5" only? Would you know what the image circles are, from your books? The Regno works like a charm all around, but not tight like a newer one, or a compound. Definitely light-tight though, I took a good close look using light. The two patent dates are as follows: May 30 1911 and Aug 13 1912. So this shutter is around 100 years old. Lovely device. Congratulations:-) Beware of dating something by patent dates. I think some products carried the patent dates or numbers long after the patents expired. I don't know what the law was on this. A patent date rather than a number indicates the object was made before 1927. The patent law was changed then to require the actual patent number although one could still mark the date also. Patents in the US have a life of 17 years (some exceptions now) so a patent issued in 1911 would have run out in 1928. I suspect the lens and shutter are later rather than earlier due to the shutter having a cable release rather than an air release. Since the T-R lens has four cemented surfaces in each cell you are doing pretty well to have only slight cement damage. I am not sure why some lenses seem more vulnerable to this than others but some of the factors are, the quality of the canada balsam used, the method of curing it, the ability of the edge paint to seal the edge from the air. The cleanliness of the glass surfaces before they were cemented are also important. The T-R has a coverage of perhaps 75 or 80 degrees when the two cells are combined. This is at a fairly small stop, perhaps f/45. The individual cells have much smaller coverage, perhaps half of the combined lens, so they won't cover much more than the "normal" format of the combined lens. Like other lenses of this general sort (Dagor, Convertible Protar, etc.) the lens is somewhat of a wide angle lens, that is, it covers a pretty wide angle, but the stop used will depend on the angle. For "normal" the optimum stop is probably around f/16 to f/22. When used at maximum coverage its around f/45. The individual cells are much slower than the combined lens and generally will be sharp at around f/36 to f/45. Stops smaller than about f/45 can be used, especially for depth of field, but the diffraction blur is usually enough to be visible on the ground glass and will be visible in prints. Gundlach made some extreme claims for the lens especially for its coverage, but they simply are not so. However, its a perfectly usable lens. Note that while the cells are intended to be used behind the stop they can also be used in front. Theoretically the performance should be better when behind the stop but in practice there is not much difference. However the bellows draw is significantly shorter when in front so its sometimes possible to use the longest FL cell this way when the camera does not have enough bellows draw to permit it to be used in its normal position. Again theoretically the speed will be slightly greater when in front but the difference is probably not significant in practice. As I mentioned Wollensak made good shutters although some of their lenses were dogs (but not all). Probably the most famous of the old Wollensak shutters was the Optimo. This shutter was made with shutter blades which turned 180 degrees when the shutter was tripped (and went back the other way the next time it was tripped). This allowed the shutter to have higher speeds than standard shutters although the highest speeds marked on some of them is purely wishful thinking. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Lens question please_Gundlach, Turner-Reich series II No. 1
"AAvK" wrote in message
... What about for mono films? I think because of this problem I would never use this lens for color films! I took it that Richard was addressing B&W. If aberation occurs in a particular color for which the film is sensitive, a correcting filter will help. Black & White film is sensitive to color (obviously) and not equally sensitive to all colors. Filters are important. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Lens question please_Gundlach, Turner-Reich series II No. 1
In article , jjs wrote:
"AAvK" wrote in message ... What about for mono films? I think because of this problem I would never use this lens for color films! I took it that Richard was addressing B&W. If aberation occurs in a particular color for which the film is sensitive, a correcting filter will help. Black & White film is sensitive to color (obviously) and not equally sensitive to all colors. Filters are important. In my early day of LF photography I once bought an ARTAR that was supposed to be a good lens and covered 8x10, it sucked royally for B&W all kinds of ghosting on b&w even when pointed 180 degrees away from the sun on a cloudy day. The ******* I bought from extracted a 50 dollar restock fee out the 350 dollar check I bought with even after I had to pester him for about 3 months to refund my money. I can think of only one nice thing to say about him: Cocks---er, may he rest in pieces. -- Reality is a picture perfected and never looking back. |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Nikonos V Question on Series? | eddie rukidding | 35mm Photo Equipment | 10 | March 14th 07 01:26 AM |
FA: Turner-Reich 12" Triple-Convertilbe Lens for 8x10 CLOSES TONIGHT! | Mr. Bill | Large Format Equipment For Sale | 0 | February 16th 04 07:05 PM |
Has anybody heard of a "Rival" LF lens? Also Wollensak Series IIIa question | DuganFoto | Large Format Photography Equipment | 4 | February 15th 04 07:52 PM |
Wanted-Turner Reich rear barrel (only) | Wayne | Large Format Equipment For Sale | 0 | February 10th 04 06:35 PM |
FA: Turner-Reich Triple-Convertible Lens (12"/19.7"/25") for 8x10 | Mr. Bill | Large Format Equipment For Sale | 0 | February 8th 04 05:22 PM |