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  #1  
Old August 16th 09, 12:05 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Alex Monro
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Posts: 79
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uw wayne wrote:

I was a Nikon affianando for decades. But they continue to introduce
products substandard in specs to many others, introduction after
product introduction. But at ridulous prices. Will Nikon ever get
their stuff together and lead again, instead of follow? Long after the
competition has excelled them, they just copy! After 30 years of them
it is wearing thin. NIKON, either lead or join Minolta. You may make a
profit now, but your time is limited unless you compete in technology
and price.


Er, D3? D300? D700? D3x?

Down the range a bit, some might consider the D90 is the best in its
class.

Or if you're talking 35mm film, the F6, still available new if you look,
is probably the best 35mm film SLR ever made.
  #2  
Old August 16th 09, 01:13 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Noons
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Posts: 3,245
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Alex Monro wrote,on my timestamp of 16/08/2009 9:05 PM:


Or if you're talking 35mm film, the F6, still available new if you look,
is probably the best 35mm film SLR ever made.


"probably"?
more like
"without a doubt"!
  #3  
Old August 16th 09, 06:43 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Fotoguy[_2_]
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Posts: 28
Default Same Old, Same Old

On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 12:05:50 +0100, Alex Monro wrote:

uw wayne wrote:

I was a Nikon affianando for decades. But they continue to introduce
products substandard in specs to many others, introduction after
product introduction. But at ridulous prices. Will Nikon ever get
their stuff together and lead again, instead of follow? Long after the
competition has excelled them, they just copy! After 30 years of them
it is wearing thin. NIKON, either lead or join Minolta. You may make a
profit now, but your time is limited unless you compete in technology
and price.


Er, D3? D300? D700? D3x?

Down the range a bit, some might consider the D90 is the best in its
class.

Or if you're talking 35mm film, the F6, still available new if you look,
is probably the best 35mm film SLR ever made.


Just curious. Is that a subjective or objective opinion? And if the
latter, what evaluative criteria did you use?

I personally rate the Nikon F2 with the standard (non-meter) pentaprism
as the best 35mm SLR ever produced based on its overall durability,
longevity, and dependability as well as reviews, tests, opinions of other
pros and camera repair techs, and shooting with it (and FMs & FM2s)
professionally for over 20 years. I've yet to come across another
camera--film or digital--that even comes close. The F2 was unique,
synergistic, and today is considered by many in the auto-digital crowd an
antique curiosity that should be in the Smithsonian.

--
Fotoguy
BestInClass.com
"Personalized digital camera recommendations"
http://www.bestinclass.com/digital-cameras
  #4  
Old August 16th 09, 08:49 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Alan Browne
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Posts: 12,640
Default Same Old, Same Old

Fotoguy wrote:
On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 12:05:50 +0100, Alex Monro wrote:

uw wayne wrote:

I was a Nikon affianando for decades. But they continue to introduce
products substandard in specs to many others, introduction after
product introduction. But at ridulous prices. Will Nikon ever get
their stuff together and lead again, instead of follow? Long after the
competition has excelled them, they just copy! After 30 years of them
it is wearing thin. NIKON, either lead or join Minolta. You may make a
profit now, but your time is limited unless you compete in technology
and price.

Er, D3? D300? D700? D3x?

Down the range a bit, some might consider the D90 is the best in its
class.

Or if you're talking 35mm film, the F6, still available new if you look,
is probably the best 35mm film SLR ever made.


Just curious. Is that a subjective or objective opinion? And if the
latter, what evaluative criteria did you use?

I personally rate the Nikon F2 with the standard (non-meter) pentaprism
as the best 35mm SLR ever produced based on its overall durability,
longevity, and dependability as well as reviews, tests, opinions of other
pros and camera repair techs, and shooting with it (and FMs & FM2s)
professionally for over 20 years. I've yet to come across another
camera--film or digital--that even comes close. The F2 was unique,
synergistic, and today is considered by many in the auto-digital crowd an
antique curiosity that should be in the Smithsonian.


A camera is a tool. As such the F5, the EOS-1n/1v, Maxxum 9 are the
absolute standouts in 35mm cameras. The F6 is a slightly watered down
F5 but incorporates what is needed by a serious film shooter. Why then
is the F5 better than the venerable F2? Because metering (etc.) are
tools that the photographer needs. While the F2 might be legendary,
that does not make it the best tool - elsewise nobody would have bought
the F5 (etc.).

One German studio had an F5 go somewhat over 1,000,000 shutter releases
before going in for service (for other reasons). The studio is of
course a benign environment, but that number is outstanding.
  #5  
Old August 17th 09, 12:21 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
David Nebenzahl
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Posts: 1,353
Default Same Old, Same Old

On 8/16/2009 4:05 AM Alex Monro spake thus:

Or if you're talking 35mm film, the F6, still available new if you look,
is probably the best 35mm film SLR ever made.


Not looking to start a "brand war", but how would you stack up the
top-o'-line Canons (F-1) against it?

(I have an A-1 which I really like, but wouldn't try to claim as the
best SLR ever made.)


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
  #6  
Old August 18th 09, 02:42 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
David Nebenzahl
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On 8/17/2009 5:36 PM uw_wayne spake thus:

On Aug 16, 4:21 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/16/2009 4:05 AM Alex Monro spake thus:

Or if you're talking 35mm film, the F6, still available new if you look,
is probably the best 35mm film SLR ever made.


Not looking to start a "brand war", but how would you stack up the
top-o'-line Canons (F-1) against it?

(I have an A-1 which I really like, but wouldn't try to claim as the
best SLR ever made.)


If you love what you have, continue to love it and use it. Screw what
other people say!


I'm trying to get an opinion on a camera I *don't* have (a Canon F-1),
one I've actually never seen in the flesh.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
  #7  
Old August 19th 09, 12:14 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Fotoguy[_2_]
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Posts: 28
Default Same Old, Same Old

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:42:03 -0700, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/17/2009 5:36 PM uw_wayne spake thus:

On Aug 16, 4:21 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 8/16/2009 4:05 AM Alex Monro spake thus:

Or if you're talking 35mm film, the F6, still available new if you
look, is probably the best 35mm film SLR ever made.

Not looking to start a "brand war", but how would you stack up the
top-o'-line Canons (F-1) against it?

(I have an A-1 which I really like, but wouldn't try to claim as the
best SLR ever made.)


If you love what you have, continue to love it and use it. Screw what
other people say!


I'm trying to get an opinion on a camera I *don't* have (a Canon F-1),
one I've actually never seen in the flesh.


Well, I can give you one, since I've actually used one. It was one of
the "pro" systems available when I was looking to upgrade from my amateur/
freelance days to fulltime pro shooter. My other choices were the
Olympus OM, Nikon, and Leica.

I did a lot of investigating, including talking to camera repair techs in
several major cities as to their opinions--from a durability and
maintenance standpoint--of each system. By this time I had narrowed my
choices to Nikon or Canon. (Leicas were too damned expensive, and the
Olympus too damned small.) To a man, they said that Canon F-1s came in
for repair about three times more frequently than Nikon F2s mostly for
shutters or the reflex mirror drive. They said that the Canon's "drive
train" just wasn't "beefy" enough to take the pounding of a motor drive.
That, along with Nikon's lenses being slightly better, and the fact that
Nikon had the best support for the pro in the world through the Nikon
Professional Service, I chose the Nikon system. And I've been using them
ever since--over 30 years. And I still have occasion to use my 30 year
old AI Nikkors on my digital Nikons.

Now, even with all that said, the Canon F-1 was not a bad camera, and the
optics were excellent as was the overall system. I particularly liked
the breech-type lens mount. Many pros used it with satisfaction, but I
also know a few who switched to Nikons after using the F-1 for a few
years, because they got fed up with them breaking too often.


--
Fotoguy
BestInClass.com
"Personalized digital camera recommendations"
http://www.bestinclass.com/digital-cameras
  #8  
Old August 19th 09, 12:38 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Paul Furman
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Posts: 7,367
Default |GG| Same Old, Same Old

uw_wayne wrote:

Hi. Very confident in what I say. Own Fm/motor, Fm2/motor drive(2), Fe/
motor drive, FM/motor drive,, F3/motor drive, F4(motor drive built
in), D70, D80,Nikonos bodies(6) and 50+lenses! They are not doing
justice to their earlier products!


Six underwater film cameras?
Why only consumer level D70, D80 models?
What exactly are your complaints?

--
Paul Furman
www.edgehill.net
www.baynatives.com

all google groups messages filtered due to spam
  #9  
Old August 19th 09, 01:48 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Fotoguy[_2_]
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Posts: 28
Default Same Old, Same Old

On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 15:49:59 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

Fotoguy wrote:
[snip]

I personally rate the Nikon F2 with the standard (non-meter) pentaprism
as the best 35mm SLR ever produced based on its overall durability,
longevity, and dependability as well as reviews, tests, opinions of
other pros and camera repair techs, and shooting with it (and FMs &
FM2s) professionally for over 20 years. I've yet to come across
another camera--film or digital--that even comes close. The F2 was
unique, synergistic, and today is considered by many in the
auto-digital crowd an antique curiosity that should be in the
Smithsonian.


A camera is a tool. As such the F5, the EOS-1n/1v, Maxxum 9 are the
absolute standouts in 35mm cameras. The F6 is a slightly watered down
F5 but incorporates what is needed by a serious film shooter. Why then
is the F5 better than the venerable F2? Because metering (etc.) are
tools that the photographer needs. While the F2 might be legendary,
that does not make it the best tool - elsewise nobody would have bought
the F5 (etc.).


A tool is only as good as the tool user. You don't really need all the
fancy features that today's electro-mechanical film (or digital) SLRs
have to be a good photographer. You don't even need a light meter, built-
in or hand-held, if you're a good photographer. I remember my second
semester college photo course: No light meters permitted. You learned
to "see" the proper exposure . . . eventually.

If the only choice was the F5, there was no choice. Of course, there are
always those whose decision is based solely on the brightness of an
object, and consider little else.

One German studio had an F5 go somewhat over 1,000,000 shutter releases
before going in for service (for other reasons). The studio is of
course a benign environment, but that number is outstanding.


An exception, I'm sure, like those cars/trucks you see in ads with a
million miles on the original, unoverhauled engine.

I wonder how many F2s are out there that have as much mileage? We'll
never know, since the camera, being all mechanical, is incapable of
recording such statistics. Actually, in the mechanical camera days, the
longevity of the shutter in cycles (or actuations as it's now called) was
never advertised or even really considered (by the buyer).

Off the top of my head, my guess, is the F2 shutter was good for 500,000
cycles, typical, with the FMs or FM2s good for half that. It took me
about 12 years of fairly serious shooting with motor drives to wear out
the shutters on two of my FMs. So, that's in the ballpark.


--
Fotoguy
BestInClass.com
"Personalized digital camera recommendations"
http://www.bestinclass.com/digital-cameras
  #10  
Old August 19th 09, 05:36 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Paul Furman
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Posts: 7,367
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uw_wayne wrote:
On Aug 18, 4:38 pm, Paul Furman wrote:
uw_wayne wrote:

Hi. Very confident in what I say. Own Fm/motor, Fm2/motor drive(2), Fe/
motor drive, FM/motor drive,, F3/motor drive, F4(motor drive built
in), D70, D80,Nikonos bodies(6) and 50+lenses! They are not doing
justice to their earlier products!

Six underwater film cameras?
Why only consumer level D70, D80 models?
What exactly are your complaints?

--
Paul Furmanwww.edgehill.netwww.baynatives.com

all google groups messages filtered due to spam


Paul, my pro level film camers were, oh a grand to two maybe. O.K. I
get inflation. But 8 grand for a Nikon 24 megpx for what Sony
overcharges at 2.5 G's!. Give me a D90 Plastic body, the new software
with a 26 megpx chip for the $300 it cost them and kick it up to 100%
profit and charge me the $600 for the Xspeed + better chip. The cost
of 1/2 a car is insane! Thats my only point. I once could buy an F6,
or an old FE2 body, load Extar with an 85mm F1.4 and get the same
qual;ity results. I just think it's time for fair value for the
consumer and the manufacturers, thats all. I understand product
development costs, but their pricing is unrealistic.


D700 for $3k, you can't get a new car for $6k (twice that perhaps).

It is true that Nikon pro gear is a bit slow in development and not the
cheapest but they are a bit more cautious and the quality is top rate.
Canon is a much larger company with vast resources and less emphasis on
photographic gear. If you need 24MP, wait a couple years or get a Sony
or Canon with Nikon adapter g. The Nikon D3s is a much better built
camera than the Canon 5DII, the D300 better built than the comparable Canon.

--
Paul Furman
www.edgehill.net
www.baynatives.com

all google groups messages filtered due to spam
 




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