For Tony, A Non-HDR Studebaker

On 2015-03-08 23:24:05 +0000, Alan Browne said:

On 2015.03.06 15:16 , Tony Cooper wrote:

Nice shot, but disconcerting because he's driving clockwise on a race
track. Having grown up in Indianapolis, I know that race cars go
around counterclockwise.

The Montreal Formula One is run clockwise as are most F1's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...a_One_circuits

Some have changed rotation, The original Nürnburgring "Noordscheife"
for example is still run counter-clockwise, while the new shortened
circuit is run clockwise, and many of those on that list were one time
race venues, many are defunct.

I duess Bernie Ecclestone gets them to run whichever way he pleases
provided they make him money.
--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2015-03-09 00:52:43 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 15:38:19 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2015-03-08 22:02:36 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 13:41:08 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

That looks like the corkscrew at Laguna Seca, in which case they
would be going counterclockwise. It is not unusual for road courses in the US
to go clockwise, though (Infineon, Mid-Ohio). Indianapolis has a road course
through the infield. When cars use it they go clockwise and
motorcycles go counterclockwise.

That is one of the better demonstrations of just what that corner is
like. Anyway, we might have convinced Tony that Laguna Seca isn't run
as a counter-clockwise oval. ;-)

What do you mean "convinced"? I made no assumption about where, or
under what conditions, the shot was made. I merely observed that for
a person who grew up thinking Indy cars run counter-clockwise sees
that image as somewhat disconcerting.

Yup! You didn't make an assumption, you made a decided statement. In
your first reply to my OP you seemed to have formulated a strong
opinion as to the direction of travel in that image when you stated:
"Nice shot, but disconcerting because he's driving clockwise on a race
track. Having grown up in Indianapolis, I know that race cars go
around counterclockwise."

You pretty much decided that he was driving clockwise without
clarifying the actual direction of travel,

He *is* driving clockwise! That is his actual direction of travel.
What you've pointed out is that this is not an oval track and that the
entire course is not run clockwise. However, in this section of the
track he is driving clockwise.

"Direction of travel" is what you are doing at the point in time. A
photograph captures a point in time. If you turn, the direction of
travel changes.

Sigh! You don't have to argue every point. That is not going to change
the rotation of the planet, nor the counter-clockwise direction of
travel at Laguna Seca.

Tony, please note, the track at Laguna Seca is a paved roadway which
has a controlled direction of travel. That is counter-clockwise on that
paved surface. At no time do any vehicles racing on that track reverse
direction to all of a sudden travel clockwise. They might turn to the
left, or the right, but they never intentionally reverse direction.
....unless they spin out, and I have seen that happen in that very same
corner. That is why this guy is aimed in the clockwise direction in the
"Corkscrew" almost directly opposite where the Studebaker was safely
negotiating the corner counter-clockwise.
https://db.tt/mtf9utRn

Take a look at this and you might note that at no time is the direction
of travel, in a race, on that track clockwise.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_24.jpg


--
Regards,

Savageduck

On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 14:43:15 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2015-03-08 21:22:46 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 13:41:08 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:
On 2015-03-08 20:04:47 +0000, Ron C said:
On 3/8/2015 12:41 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On 2015-03-08 16:20:56 +0000, Savageduck said:
On 2015-03-08 10:48:19 +0000, Jeff said:
Tony Cooper wrote in
:
On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 10:58:14 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:

I recall your fondness for Studebakers, and along with your distain of
all things HDR. So I thought you might enjoy this Non-HDR image of a
1932 Studebaker Indy Special Racer.
http://adobe.ly/1Mfq417

Nice shot, but disconcerting because he's driving clockwise on a race
track. Having grown up in Indianapolis, I know that race cars go
around counterclockwise.

I have the same problem in viewing some UK shots of point-to-point
racing. They run clockwise.

That looks like the corkscrew at Laguna Seca, in which case they
would be going counterclockwise. It is not unusual for road courses in the US
to go clockwise, though (Infineon, Mid-Ohio). Indianapolis has a road course
through the infield. When cars use it they go clockwise and
motorcycles go counterclockwise.

Correct! It is the "Corkscrew" at Laguna Seca, and it does run anti or
counterclockwise (depending on your particular taste). My position was
on the hill under the trees, where I could see the vehicles coming
directly down the drop off into that radical elevation change starting
with the left curve over the top, then the left to right to left
switch back, into the sweep at the bottom.
I believe Tony thought that the blue & white curb indicated the
outside of an oval track running clockwise. Laguna Seca is no oval,
and there is more to driving there than only making a left turn.

BTW: that elevation change is one of the greatest on any motor race
track anywhere. The only comparible track is Bathurst in Australia
where there is a climb up Mount Panorama with a subsequent serious
descent. Most drivers liken the experience of navigating the
"Corkscrew" to driving off a six story building, and having to
maintain control.

This shot might show a bit more of the direction change.
http://adobe.ly/1Gvw9q1

...and with the luxury of GPS tagging in the file EXIF, my position
for many of those shots can be seen.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_20.jpg

...and this shot might show the direction change in the "Corkscrew" a
little better.
https://db.tt/PONAFPIu


Can't remember who posted this link but for what it's worth, here's
a youtube clip of that turn:
"A Blind Crest and a 3 Story Drop: The Corkscrew at Laguna Seca"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pej4R0DsKKs#t=213

That is one of the better demonstrations of just what that corner is
like. Anyway, we might have convinced Tony that Laguna Seca isn't run
as a counter-clockwise oval. ;-)

Now there is a thought, run Laguna Seca counter-clockwise and climb the
"Corkscrew". Going over that crest at speed, into a right turn would be
a real thrill.

I wonder how motorcycles would handle it?

They handle it very well. It is quite spectacular to see those bikes
making that left-side to right-side lean switch as they negotiate that
turn at race speed.

They don't jump?

Laguna Seca has been one of the stops for the MotoGP World Championship
tour. This year big $$$ has spoken and the US MotoGP race will be at
the new "Circuit of The Americas" or "COTA" in Austin, Texas.
It is still a major stop for the World Super Bike and AMA races.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 16:06:40 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2015-03-08 21:43:15 +0000, Savageduck said:

On 2015-03-08 21:22:46 +0000, Eric Stevens said:
On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 13:41:08 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:
On 2015-03-08 20:04:47 +0000, Ron C said:
On 3/8/2015 12:41 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On 2015-03-08 16:20:56 +0000, Savageduck said:
On 2015-03-08 10:48:19 +0000, Jeff said:
Tony Cooper wrote in
:
On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 10:58:14 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:

I recall your fondness for Studebakers, and along with your distain of
all things HDR. So I thought you might enjoy this Non-HDR image of a
1932 Studebaker Indy Special Racer.
http://adobe.ly/1Mfq417

Nice shot, but disconcerting because he's driving clockwise on a race
track. Having grown up in Indianapolis, I know that race cars go
around counterclockwise.

I have the same problem in viewing some UK shots of point-to-point
racing. They run clockwise.

That looks like the corkscrew at Laguna Seca, in which case they
would be going counterclockwise. It is not unusual for road courses in the US
to go clockwise, though (Infineon, Mid-Ohio). Indianapolis has a road course
through the infield. When cars use it they go clockwise and
motorcycles go counterclockwise.

Correct! It is the "Corkscrew" at Laguna Seca, and it does run anti or
counterclockwise (depending on your particular taste). My position was
on the hill under the trees, where I could see the vehicles coming
directly down the drop off into that radical elevation change starting
with the left curve over the top, then the left to right to left
switch back, into the sweep at the bottom.
I believe Tony thought that the blue & white curb indicated the
outside of an oval track running clockwise. Laguna Seca is no oval,
and there is more to driving there than only making a left turn.

BTW: that elevation change is one of the greatest on any motor race
track anywhere. The only comparible track is Bathurst in Australia
where there is a climb up Mount Panorama with a subsequent serious
descent. Most drivers liken the experience of navigating the
"Corkscrew" to driving off a six story building, and having to
maintain control.

This shot might show a bit more of the direction change.
http://adobe.ly/1Gvw9q1

...and with the luxury of GPS tagging in the file EXIF, my position
for many of those shots can be seen.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_20.jpg

...and this shot might show the direction change in the "Corkscrew" a
little better.
https://db.tt/PONAFPIu


Can't remember who posted this link but for what it's worth, here's
a youtube clip of that turn:
"A Blind Crest and a 3 Story Drop: The Corkscrew at Laguna Seca"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pej4R0DsKKs#t=213

That is one of the better demonstrations of just what that corner is
like. Anyway, we might have convinced Tony that Laguna Seca isn't run
as a counter-clockwise oval. ;-)

Now there is a thought, run Laguna Seca counter-clockwise and climb the
"Corkscrew". Going over that crest at speed, into a right turn would be
a real thrill.

I wonder how motorcycles would handle it?

They handle it very well. It is quite spectacular to see those bikes
making that left-side to right-side lean switch as they negotiate that
turn at race speed.

Laguna Seca has been one of the stops for the MotoGP World Championship
tour. This year big $$$ has spoken and the US MotoGP race will be at
the new "Circuit of The Americas" or "COTA" in Austin, Texas.
It is still a major stop for the World Super Bike and AMA races.


...and here is how two very competitive & aggressive MotoGP racers
handle Laguna Seca:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY9mrKR5SkA&spfreload=10

It's always a shock to see how young Greg Stoner is.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:10:57 -0700, Bill W
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:07:42 -0700, Bill W
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 16:04:47 -0400, Ron C wrote:


Can't remember who posted this link but for what it's worth, here's
a youtube clip of that turn:
"A Blind Crest and a 3 Story Drop: The Corkscrew at Laguna Seca"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pej4R0DsKKs#t=213

That could be the most annoying video I've ever seen. Bunch of words,
bunch of slow motion of essentially nothing at useless camera angles.
An on-board camera would have been about the only way to get a feel
for it. In fact, here's one of many:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOek5nI6Wac

And here's a (very old) video from a bike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc-dB4DB7dg

Here's a better one on a bike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YYQQXuPWMg

Here is (only) 34 seconds of Isle of Mann speed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEtZ0VJAVvc and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRWp9rhfS_0 which is somewhat longer
longer but opens with views of a _m_a_d _ photographer. As far as I
know, none of this is speeded up.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 16:49:49 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:10:57 -0700, Bill W
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:07:42 -0700, Bill W
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 16:04:47 -0400, Ron C wrote:


Can't remember who posted this link but for what it's worth, here's
a youtube clip of that turn:
"A Blind Crest and a 3 Story Drop: The Corkscrew at Laguna Seca"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pej4R0DsKKs#t=213

That could be the most annoying video I've ever seen. Bunch of words,
bunch of slow motion of essentially nothing at useless camera angles.
An on-board camera would have been about the only way to get a feel
for it. In fact, here's one of many:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOek5nI6Wac

And here's a (very old) video from a bike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc-dB4DB7dg

Here's a better one on a bike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YYQQXuPWMg

Here is (only) 34 seconds of Isle of Mann speed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEtZ0VJAVvc and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRWp9rhfS_0 which is somewhat longer
longer but opens with views of a _m_a_d _ photographer. As far as I
know, none of this is speeded up.

That's some nice footage, and I don't think any of it is sped up
either.

There is something very, very, wrong with those riders.

On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 16:06:40 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

...and here is how two very competitive & aggressive MotoGP racers
handle Laguna Seca:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY9mrKR5SkA&spfreload=10

Rossi: "I have to try and stay in front..." Un****ingbelievable.

On 2015-03-09 05:25:07 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 20:02:48 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:
On 2015-03-09 00:52:43 +0000, Tony Cooper said:
On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 15:38:19 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:
On 2015-03-08 22:02:36 +0000, Tony Cooper said:
On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 13:41:08 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

That looks like the corkscrew at Laguna Seca, in which case they
would be going counterclockwise. It is not unusual for road courses in the US
to go clockwise, though (Infineon, Mid-Ohio). Indianapolis has a road course
through the infield. When cars use it they go clockwise and
motorcycles go counterclockwise.

That is one of the better demonstrations of just what that corner is
like. Anyway, we might have convinced Tony that Laguna Seca isn't run
as a counter-clockwise oval. ;-)

What do you mean "convinced"? I made no assumption about where, or
under what conditions, the shot was made. I merely observed that for
a person who grew up thinking Indy cars run counter-clockwise sees
that image as somewhat disconcerting.

Yup! You didn't make an assumption, you made a decided statement. In
your first reply to my OP you seemed to have formulated a strong
opinion as to the direction of travel in that image when you stated:
"Nice shot, but disconcerting because he's driving clockwise on a race
track. Having grown up in Indianapolis, I know that race cars go
around counterclockwise."

You pretty much decided that he was driving clockwise without
clarifying the actual direction of travel,

He *is* driving clockwise! That is his actual direction of travel.
What you've pointed out is that this is not an oval track and that the
entire course is not run clockwise. However, in this section of the
track he is driving clockwise.

"Direction of travel" is what you are doing at the point in time. A
photograph captures a point in time. If you turn, the direction of
travel changes.

Sigh! You don't have to argue every point. That is not going to change
the rotation of the planet, nor the counter-clockwise direction of
travel at Laguna Seca.

Tony, please note, the track at Laguna Seca is a paved roadway which
has a controlled direction of travel. That is counter-clockwise on that
paved surface. At no time do any vehicles racing on that track reverse
direction to all of a sudden travel clockwise. They might turn to the
left, or the right, but they never intentionally reverse direction.
...unless they spin out, and I have seen that happen in that very same
corner. That is why this guy is aimed in the clockwise direction in the
"Corkscrew" almost directly opposite where the Studebaker was safely
negotiating the corner counter-clockwise.
https://db.tt/mtf9utRn

Take a look at this and you might note that at no time is the direction
of travel, in a race, on that track clockwise.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_24.jpg

Duck, in the photograph you provided, the car is headed in a clockwise
direction.

Nope! Never was, not in any sequence of shots I took of that car.

That's what I saw,

That is what you assumed, and you are now arguing needlessly.

and that's what I commented on.

Yup!

You furnished the photo.

Yup!

That's what the photograph showed.

No it didn't. That was what you assumed it showed.

You provided a photograph without any explanation of the location, the
type of track, the place on the track where the photograph was taken,
the photographer's position, or anything else that would lead anyone
to think the car isn't going in a clockwise direction.

I provided a photograph of a 1932 Studebaker Indy racer, which I
thought might be of some interest to you given what you have said
regarding Studebakers in your past.
You decided to make an erroneous comment on the direction of travel,
and now you are arguing, trying to tell me that what you misinterpreted
is what all should accept as reality, when it is not.
If you took the trouble to look at the EXIF data you would have seen
that the shot was Geo-tagged.

So all of this information is provided along with the image, just
scroll down to the location information and a very nice map has been
provided, with a "greenarrow" showing where I was when I took this shot.

http://regex.info/exif.cgi?dummy=on&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fdl.dropboxu sercontent.com%2Fu%2F1295663%2FShared%2520Images%2 FAutomotive%2F_DNC4615-Edit.jpg

or
http://tinyurl.com/q5l4z66

But, you seem to think that it should be somehow understood that the
photograph was taken at Laguna Seca,

I suppose I should have said that I took the shot at Laguna Seca, as
for the other stuff I dont believe that is in anyway necessary.

the general flow is counter-clockwise, and that there's a corkscrew
involved. And, that
it is "wrong" to assume it's headed in a clockwise direction even
though it's pointed in that direction.

....but it is not pointed in that direction, never was. look at the
image again. The car was always traveling right to left, in an
anti-clockwise direction regardless of how much you say it was going in
the opposite direction.

I'm not arguing about how Laguna Seca is laid out or how a race is run
on that track. I'm simply pointing out what *your* photograph showed.
You have not provided any explanation of why the car is headed in a
clockwise direction in your picture. You keep referring to the way
the race is run, but you aren't providing a reason the car appears to
be going clockwise.

....but it doesn't appear to be going clockwise, never did. That is what
your brain is telling you, and misleading you to your false assumption.
This bunch might help.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_25.jpg

It did dawn on me why the car appears to be going clockwise. The nose
of the car appears on the right or left side of a photograph depending
on where the photographer is standing.

Bingo! Is the actuallity dawning?

When the cars are going anti-clockwise, the nose of the car appears on
the right of a photograph taken from outside of the track and appears
on the left of a photograph taken from the inside of the track. You
must have been inside the track when taking the photo.

So you figured it out?

If that's the case, just identify where you took the photo and forget
about the direction of travel, the layout of the course, all that
other stuff. It's the photographer's position, not the direction of
travel, that determines on which side of the photograph the nose is.

Check the Geo-tag.

In this image, the nose is on the right side of a photo taken at the
Indy 500 (a counter-clockwise race) because the photographer was
outside the track.

http://images.thecarconnection.com/m...00428117_m.jpg


In this image, the nose is on the left side of a photo taken at the
Indy 500 because the photographer was inside the track.

http://4hdwallpapers.com/wp-content/...y-500-Race.jpg

Both cars are traveling counter-clockwise.

OK! OK! I understand all that. Just to be clear, at no time for any
photographs I have taken at Laguna Seca, have I ever been on the
outside of the track. Maybe next time, I am thinking of August, care to
join me.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 21:46:22 -0700, Bill W
wrote:

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 16:49:49 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:10:57 -0700, Bill W
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:07:42 -0700, Bill W
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 16:04:47 -0400, Ron C wrote:


Can't remember who posted this link but for what it's worth, here's
a youtube clip of that turn:
"A Blind Crest and a 3 Story Drop: The Corkscrew at Laguna Seca"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pej4R0DsKKs#t=213

That could be the most annoying video I've ever seen. Bunch of words,
bunch of slow motion of essentially nothing at useless camera angles.
An on-board camera would have been about the only way to get a feel
for it. In fact, here's one of many:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOek5nI6Wac

And here's a (very old) video from a bike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc-dB4DB7dg

Here's a better one on a bike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YYQQXuPWMg

Here is (only) 34 seconds of Isle of Mann speed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEtZ0VJAVvc and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRWp9rhfS_0 which is somewhat longer
longer but opens with views of a _m_a_d _ photographer. As far as I
know, none of this is speeded up.

That's some nice footage, and I don't think any of it is sped up
either.

There is something very, very, wrong with those riders.

Yeah. They are still alive. :-)
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens wrote:

Here is (only) 34 seconds of Isle of Mann speed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEtZ0VJAVvc and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRWp9rhfS_0 which is somewhat longer
longer but opens with views of a _m_a_d _ photographer. As far as I
know, none of this is speeded up.

The most exciting racing anywhere, period. The first time you stand at the
side of the road and a bike goes by at that speed, and then another and
another, it's mind blowing. I was stood out side the pub, just like the
people in this photo, my first time, The Sulby Glen Hotel on the Sulby
straight which is the fastest bit of the course, you can here them coming
absolutely flat out, no change in engine note as they disapear down the road
towards Ramsey. Unbelievable, and it leaves you smiling from ear to ear!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fcv0kd0tw5...56.40.jpg?dl=0


--
sid