Image vanishing!

"sreenath" wrote in message
om...
wrote in message
roups.com...
Sreenath,

Can you describe precisely what you did? I hardly can
imagine that an
image disappears after developing, fixing and washing,
just in a few
hours. I can imagine that the highlights become stained,
due to
bad/insufficient fixing, but the shadows, once formed,
normally do not
disappear within a few hours.

Only if the paper was soaked with some oxidizing liquid,
I can imagine
that all black metallic silver is oxidized to colorless
Ag(+), such
that the image disappears, but then you probably have a
really weird
fixer or a really weird washing liquid.

Wilco

Hello,

The two prints that have suffered this way are :

1. test print, exposed in terms of 15 seconds(15, 30, 45,
.. 90)
There was progressive density as can be expected. I left
the print in
the fixer for 40 minutes since I went out for a walk.
After coming
back I found that the lower strips had vanished. The more
exposed ones
were still there, though the density was greately reduced.
This also
faded somewhat on drying.

2. The other print was really underexposed, mistake on my
part. There
was a image visible. This one was fixed for normal
duration, ( a few
minutes) and then washed and hanged to dry. This one faded
during
drying.

I think Richard Knoppow has pointed out something
important. The two
prints have become yellow. Is this because of dichroic
fog?

Even the test strip that has the faded image has also
turned yellow.

I did not use stop bath. I had a tray filled with water(2
liters) and
I simply dipped the print there for a minute. Possibly the
alakli has
entered the fixer in a big way. So a combination of a
rather old
fixer, nearing exhasution and mixing of alkali had
something?

Thanks,
Sreenath

Dichroic fog is a deposit of very fine elemental silver
on the surface of film or paper. On film it looks yellowish
by tranmission and bluish by reflection. On a print it
probably would look yellow. I am not saying this is what you
got, but its a possibility. Dichroic fog can come from well
used developer that has a lot of silver dissolved in it. In
combination with carried over developer fine silver can be
generated in the bath. This happens only with very well used
fixing bath. OTOH, it seems to me very unlikely such an
exhausted fixer could bleach out the silver image. I am more
suspicious that something got into the fixing bath causing
the problem. I have no idea what this could be. Normally a
bleach that will remove a silver image is a very stong
bleach, much stronger than any bleaching action from a
fixing bath of any sort.
As I stated in another post to this thread, Kodak
recommends a solution of rapid acid fixer with a small
amount of citric acid added to remove dichroic fog from
film. This solution will bleach highlights if the film is
left long enough but I think it would not ever completely
remove the image.
I am puzzled by this as I think Donald Qualls is, its
very unusual. I think something else was going on here but I
can't even guess at to what. Again, the normal bleaching
action of acid rapid fixer is such that it can cool warm
tone papers a little and given long enough remove some
highlight detail, but not remove an entire image. Even the
slight bleaching takes say 15 minutes or more in fresh
fixer. Since papaper should fix out in no more than two
minutes, and usually in half that, in rapid fixer its not
usually a problem unless the paper is left in the fixer for
an inordinate amount of time.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

"sreenath" wrote in message
om...
wrote in message
roups.com...
Sreenath,

Can you describe precisely what you did? I hardly can
imagine that an
image disappears after developing, fixing and washing,
just in a few
hours. I can imagine that the highlights become stained,
due to
bad/insufficient fixing, but the shadows, once formed,
normally do not
disappear within a few hours.

Only if the paper was soaked with some oxidizing liquid,
I can imagine
that all black metallic silver is oxidized to colorless
Ag(+), such
that the image disappears, but then you probably have a
really weird
fixer or a really weird washing liquid.

Wilco

Hello,

The two prints that have suffered this way are :

1. test print, exposed in terms of 15 seconds(15, 30, 45,
.. 90)
There was progressive density as can be expected. I left
the print in
the fixer for 40 minutes since I went out for a walk.
After coming
back I found that the lower strips had vanished. The more
exposed ones
were still there, though the density was greately reduced.
This also
faded somewhat on drying.

2. The other print was really underexposed, mistake on my
part. There
was a image visible. This one was fixed for normal
duration, ( a few
minutes) and then washed and hanged to dry. This one faded
during
drying.

I think Richard Knoppow has pointed out something
important. The two
prints have become yellow. Is this because of dichroic
fog?

Even the test strip that has the faded image has also
turned yellow.

I did not use stop bath. I had a tray filled with water(2
liters) and
I simply dipped the print there for a minute. Possibly the
alakli has
entered the fixer in a big way. So a combination of a
rather old
fixer, nearing exhasution and mixing of alkali had
something?

Thanks,
Sreenath

Dichroic fog is a deposit of very fine elemental silver
on the surface of film or paper. On film it looks yellowish
by tranmission and bluish by reflection. On a print it
probably would look yellow. I am not saying this is what you
got, but its a possibility. Dichroic fog can come from well
used developer that has a lot of silver dissolved in it. In
combination with carried over developer fine silver can be
generated in the bath. This happens only with very well used
fixing bath. OTOH, it seems to me very unlikely such an
exhausted fixer could bleach out the silver image. I am more
suspicious that something got into the fixing bath causing
the problem. I have no idea what this could be. Normally a
bleach that will remove a silver image is a very stong
bleach, much stronger than any bleaching action from a
fixing bath of any sort.
As I stated in another post to this thread, Kodak
recommends a solution of rapid acid fixer with a small
amount of citric acid added to remove dichroic fog from
film. This solution will bleach highlights if the film is
left long enough but I think it would not ever completely
remove the image.
I am puzzled by this as I think Donald Qualls is, its
very unusual. I think something else was going on here but I
can't even guess at to what. Again, the normal bleaching
action of acid rapid fixer is such that it can cool warm
tone papers a little and given long enough remove some
highlight detail, but not remove an entire image. Even the
slight bleaching takes say 15 minutes or more in fresh
fixer. Since papaper should fix out in no more than two
minutes, and usually in half that, in rapid fixer its not
usually a problem unless the paper is left in the fixer for
an inordinate amount of time.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

sreenath wrote:

Hello,

The two prints that have suffered this way are :

1. test print, exposed in terms of 15 seconds(15, 30, 45, .. 90)
There was progressive density as can be expected. I left the print in
the fixer for 40 minutes since I went out for a walk. After coming
back I found that the lower strips had vanished. The more exposed ones
were still there, though the density was greately reduced. This also
faded somewhat on drying.

2. The other print was really underexposed, mistake on my part. There
was a image visible. This one was fixed for normal duration, ( a few
minutes) and then washed and hanged to dry. This one faded during
drying.

I think Richard Knoppow has pointed out something important. The two
prints have become yellow. Is this because of dichroic fog?

Even the test strip that has the faded image has also turned yellow.

I did not use stop bath. I had a tray filled with water(2 liters) and
I simply dipped the print there for a minute. Possibly the alakli has
entered the fixer in a big way. So a combination of a rather old
fixer, nearing exhasution and mixing of alkali had something?

Thanks,
Sreenath


Whatever about the cause of the problem, 40 minutes in fixer is really
excessive. For an RC print, two minutes is probably correct. Many of
us use a two bath method. A minute or so in the first bath, and a
minute or so in the second bath. When the first bath is exhausted, the
second bath becomes the first bath and a fresh second bath is prepared.

Not using stop bath is not a problem IF you use a water rinse at the
very least to keep developer transfer to the fixer at a minimum. As I
mentioned in an earlier post, use Hypo-Chek to determine whether the
fixer is exhausted.


Francis A. Miniter

"Francis A. Miniter" wrote in
message ...
sreenath wrote:

Hello,

The two prints that have suffered this way are :

1. test print, exposed in terms of 15 seconds(15, 30, 45,
.. 90)
There was progressive density as can be expected. I left
the print in
the fixer for 40 minutes since I went out for a walk.
After coming
back I found that the lower strips had vanished. The more
exposed ones
were still there, though the density was greately reduced.
This also
faded somewhat on drying.

2. The other print was really underexposed, mistake on my
part. There
was a image visible. This one was fixed for normal
duration, ( a few
minutes) and then washed and hanged to dry. This one faded
during
drying.

I think Richard Knoppow has pointed out something
important. The two
prints have become yellow. Is this because of dichroic
fog?

Even the test strip that has the faded image has also
turned yellow.

I did not use stop bath. I had a tray filled with water(2
liters) and
I simply dipped the print there for a minute. Possibly the
alakli has
entered the fixer in a big way. So a combination of a
rather old
fixer, nearing exhasution and mixing of alkali had
something?

Thanks,
Sreenath


Whatever about the cause of the problem, 40 minutes in
fixer is really excessive. For an RC print, two minutes
is probably correct. Many of us use a two bath method. A
minute or so in the first bath, and a minute or so in the
second bath. When the first bath is exhausted, the second
bath becomes the first bath and a fresh second bath is
prepared.
Not using stop bath is not a problem IF you use a water
rinse at the very least to keep developer transfer to the
fixer at a minimum. As I mentioned in an earlier post,
use Hypo-Chek to determine whether the fixer is exhausted.


Francis A. Miniter

I agree completely with this.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

"Francis A. Miniter" wrote in
message ...
sreenath wrote:

Hello,

The two prints that have suffered this way are :

1. test print, exposed in terms of 15 seconds(15, 30, 45,
.. 90)
There was progressive density as can be expected. I left
the print in
the fixer for 40 minutes since I went out for a walk.
After coming
back I found that the lower strips had vanished. The more
exposed ones
were still there, though the density was greately reduced.
This also
faded somewhat on drying.

2. The other print was really underexposed, mistake on my
part. There
was a image visible. This one was fixed for normal
duration, ( a few
minutes) and then washed and hanged to dry. This one faded
during
drying.

I think Richard Knoppow has pointed out something
important. The two
prints have become yellow. Is this because of dichroic
fog?

Even the test strip that has the faded image has also
turned yellow.

I did not use stop bath. I had a tray filled with water(2
liters) and
I simply dipped the print there for a minute. Possibly the
alakli has
entered the fixer in a big way. So a combination of a
rather old
fixer, nearing exhasution and mixing of alkali had
something?

Thanks,
Sreenath


Whatever about the cause of the problem, 40 minutes in
fixer is really excessive. For an RC print, two minutes
is probably correct. Many of us use a two bath method. A
minute or so in the first bath, and a minute or so in the
second bath. When the first bath is exhausted, the second
bath becomes the first bath and a fresh second bath is
prepared.
Not using stop bath is not a problem IF you use a water
rinse at the very least to keep developer transfer to the
fixer at a minimum. As I mentioned in an earlier post,
use Hypo-Chek to determine whether the fixer is exhausted.


Francis A. Miniter

I agree completely with this.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

"Francis A. Miniter" wrote

Not using stop bath is not a problem IF you use a water rinse ...


... with neutral to alkaline fixers. Acid stops are
generally recommended for Acid fixers.
The acid in an acid stop is there to maintain the acidity
of an acid fix. Acid stops run apx. 98% water. Numbers alone
dictate the great effect water has on 'stoping'. The swift
nature of the water molecule compared to that of the
usuall acid molecule only increases it's effect.
There is no point in using an acid stop with other than
an acid fix. The usual few second dip will confer enough
acid to the paper to maintain the acidity of the fix.
I use a water STOP, if any at all, with neutral and
alkaline fixers. Dan

"Francis A. Miniter" wrote

Not using stop bath is not a problem IF you use a water rinse ...


... with neutral to alkaline fixers. Acid stops are
generally recommended for Acid fixers.
The acid in an acid stop is there to maintain the acidity
of an acid fix. Acid stops run apx. 98% water. Numbers alone
dictate the great effect water has on 'stoping'. The swift
nature of the water molecule compared to that of the
usuall acid molecule only increases it's effect.
There is no point in using an acid stop with other than
an acid fix. The usual few second dip will confer enough
acid to the paper to maintain the acidity of the fix.
I use a water STOP, if any at all, with neutral and
alkaline fixers. Dan