Image vanishing!

Hi all,

Yesteday I printed a few images on Ilford MG warmtone fiber paper. One
of them was quite underexposed, but there was an image to see.

However, after fixing, washing and hanging to dry, I found that the
image had all but vanished. This was after a few hours.

I tried to get the image back by placing the print in brown toner
solution. I was hoping that if the image had somehow become
rehaloginated, it would develop again into silver, but it did not
happen.

Another test strip also bleached partially in the fixer itself after
40 minutes of sitting in the fixing bath.

What causes this? Has anyone experienced similar things?

Thanks in advance,
-Sreenath

In article ,
(sreenath) wrote:

Hi all,

Yesteday I printed a few images on Ilford MG warmtone fiber paper. One
of them was quite underexposed, but there was an image to see.

However, after fixing, washing and hanging to dry, I found that the
image had all but vanished. This was after a few hours.

I tried to get the image back by placing the print in brown toner
solution. I was hoping that if the image had somehow become
rehaloginated, it would develop again into silver, but it did not
happen.

Another test strip also bleached partially in the fixer itself after
40 minutes of sitting in the fixing bath.

What causes this? Has anyone experienced similar things?

Thanks in advance,
-Sreenath

We need to know how long you fixed the image and at what
fixer to water dilution.
--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

sreenath wrote:

Hi all,

Yesteday I printed a few images on Ilford MG warmtone fiber paper. One
of them was quite underexposed, but there was an image to see.

However, after fixing, washing and hanging to dry, I found that the
image had all but vanished. This was after a few hours.

I tried to get the image back by placing the print in brown toner
solution. I was hoping that if the image had somehow become
rehaloginated, it would develop again into silver, but it did not
happen.

Another test strip also bleached partially in the fixer itself after
40 minutes of sitting in the fixing bath.

What causes this? Has anyone experienced similar things?

Thanks in advance,
-Sreenath


Hi Sreenath,

It sounds as though your fixer is exhausted. Do you have any
"Hypo-Chek" or equivalent solution with which to test the fixer? If
not, the first test is to make fresh fixer, repeat the process and see
what happens.


Francis A. Miniter

sreenath wrote:

Hi all,

Yesteday I printed a few images on Ilford MG warmtone fiber paper. One
of them was quite underexposed, but there was an image to see.

However, after fixing, washing and hanging to dry, I found that the
image had all but vanished. This was after a few hours.

I tried to get the image back by placing the print in brown toner
solution. I was hoping that if the image had somehow become
rehaloginated, it would develop again into silver, but it did not
happen.

Another test strip also bleached partially in the fixer itself after
40 minutes of sitting in the fixing bath.

What causes this? Has anyone experienced similar things?

Thanks in advance,
-Sreenath


Hi Sreenath,

It sounds as though your fixer is exhausted. Do you have any
"Hypo-Chek" or equivalent solution with which to test the fixer? If
not, the first test is to make fresh fixer, repeat the process and see
what happens.


Francis A. Miniter

On 2 Nov 2004 04:11:21 -0800, (sreenath)
wrote:

Hi all,

Yesteday I printed a few images on Ilford MG warmtone fiber paper. One
of them was quite underexposed, but there was an image to see.

However, after fixing, washing and hanging to dry, I found that the
image had all but vanished. This was after a few hours.

I tried to get the image back by placing the print in brown toner
solution. I was hoping that if the image had somehow become
rehaloginated, it would develop again into silver, but it did not
happen.

Another test strip also bleached partially in the fixer itself after
40 minutes of sitting in the fixing bath.

Too long in the fix. Howlong did you fix the first print? Was it
Sodium or Ammonium?


What causes this? Has anyone experienced similar things?

Thanks in advance,
-Sreenath

Robert Vervoordt, MFA

On 2 Nov 2004 04:11:21 -0800, (sreenath)
wrote:

Hi all,

Yesteday I printed a few images on Ilford MG warmtone fiber paper. One
of them was quite underexposed, but there was an image to see.

However, after fixing, washing and hanging to dry, I found that the
image had all but vanished. This was after a few hours.

I tried to get the image back by placing the print in brown toner
solution. I was hoping that if the image had somehow become
rehaloginated, it would develop again into silver, but it did not
happen.

Another test strip also bleached partially in the fixer itself after
40 minutes of sitting in the fixing bath.

Too long in the fix. Howlong did you fix the first print? Was it
Sodium or Ammonium?


What causes this? Has anyone experienced similar things?

Thanks in advance,
-Sreenath

Robert Vervoordt, MFA

(sreenath) wrote

Another test strip also bleached partially in the fixer itself after
40 minutes of sitting in the fixing bath.

What causes this? Has anyone experienced similar things?


Forty minute fix. Was that an experiment?
I've only heard that a long fix can bleach. I've never heard why.
Fix itself is a reducing bath, not at all a bleach. The THIO is
sulfer and stands in place of one oxygen so it is a THIOsulFATE
rather than SULFER sulFITE.
I think a long fix may bleach due to the action of oxygen in a
shallow solution on the metalic silver. The silver is likely
of near colloidal size and easily affected.
I've doubts that the concentration of the fix has much to do
with the bleaching. Be the fix much or little dilute the oxidized
silver will be fixed out.
Anybody got a better theory? Dan

(sreenath) wrote

Another test strip also bleached partially in the fixer itself after
40 minutes of sitting in the fixing bath.

What causes this? Has anyone experienced similar things?


Forty minute fix. Was that an experiment?
I've only heard that a long fix can bleach. I've never heard why.
Fix itself is a reducing bath, not at all a bleach. The THIO is
sulfer and stands in place of one oxygen so it is a THIOsulFATE
rather than SULFER sulFITE.
I think a long fix may bleach due to the action of oxygen in a
shallow solution on the metalic silver. The silver is likely
of near colloidal size and easily affected.
I've doubts that the concentration of the fix has much to do
with the bleaching. Be the fix much or little dilute the oxidized
silver will be fixed out.
Anybody got a better theory? Dan

(Dan Quinn) wrote in message . com...
(sreenath) wrote

Another test strip also bleached partially in the fixer itself after
40 minutes of sitting in the fixing bath.

What causes this? Has anyone experienced similar things?


Forty minute fix. Was that an experiment?
I've only heard that a long fix can bleach. I've never heard why.
Fix itself is a reducing bath, not at all a bleach. The THIO is
sulfer and stands in place of one oxygen so it is a THIOsulFATE
rather than SULFER sulFITE.
I think a long fix may bleach due to the action of oxygen in a
shallow solution on the metalic silver. The silver is likely
of near colloidal size and easily affected.
I've doubts that the concentration of the fix has much to do
with the bleaching. Be the fix much or little dilute the oxidized
silver will be fixed out.
Anybody got a better theory? Dan

I wonder how long the prints were fixed. The 40 minute time seems
to be for the test strips. Ammonium thiosulfate (rapid) fixer when
acid will act as a solvent for metallic silver but it takes some time.
Warm tone paper has very fine silver particals as you point out so is
more vulnerable to bleaching in the fixing bath.
BTW, Kodak recommends rapid fixer with 15 grams per liter of
citric acid added as a reducer for dichroic fog, which is colloidal
silver, so it will definitely remove metallic silver.
Rapid fixers diluted to film strength should fixe out paper
emulsions in 30 seconds to a maximum of around 2 minutes for some
unusual papers. Most papers should be fixed in one minute.
Neutral or alkaline rapid fixer does not bleach.

Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

(Dan Quinn) wrote in message . com...
(sreenath) wrote

Another test strip also bleached partially in the fixer itself after
40 minutes of sitting in the fixing bath.

What causes this? Has anyone experienced similar things?


Forty minute fix. Was that an experiment?
I've only heard that a long fix can bleach. I've never heard why.
Fix itself is a reducing bath, not at all a bleach. The THIO is
sulfer and stands in place of one oxygen so it is a THIOsulFATE
rather than SULFER sulFITE.
I think a long fix may bleach due to the action of oxygen in a
shallow solution on the metalic silver. The silver is likely
of near colloidal size and easily affected.
I've doubts that the concentration of the fix has much to do
with the bleaching. Be the fix much or little dilute the oxidized
silver will be fixed out.
Anybody got a better theory? Dan

I wonder how long the prints were fixed. The 40 minute time seems
to be for the test strips. Ammonium thiosulfate (rapid) fixer when
acid will act as a solvent for metallic silver but it takes some time.
Warm tone paper has very fine silver particals as you point out so is
more vulnerable to bleaching in the fixing bath.
BTW, Kodak recommends rapid fixer with 15 grams per liter of
citric acid added as a reducer for dichroic fog, which is colloidal
silver, so it will definitely remove metallic silver.
Rapid fixers diluted to film strength should fixe out paper
emulsions in 30 seconds to a maximum of around 2 minutes for some
unusual papers. Most papers should be fixed in one minute.
Neutral or alkaline rapid fixer does not bleach.

Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA