Help me out -- ISO/Development/Shadows & Highlites

Frank Pittel wrote:


SSSSSHH. I'm trying to build on my collection of Spotmatic lenses and would
appreciate you and others from driving the prices up! :-) :-)

Ah. Sorry.

Say, if you have any duplicates in 50-55 mm, f/1.8 or faster (preferably
f/1.4 or even f/1.2), I've got a slightly yellowed Super Takumar 50mm
f/1.4 I might be interested in trading...

--
The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
-- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Dan Quinn wrote:

(Adam Attarian) wrote

Any advice for me?


Use a faster film. Dan

I agree.

"Adam Attarian" wrote in message
om...
Hey Guys-

I'm a student doing a project on this check cashing/bail
bonds place
that has their offices underground. I've been shooting TX
pushed to
800 and then over exposing a third of a stop, with ok
results-- my
negatives are still pretty thin in places. Using a flash
is
definitely, categorically out of the question. What I'd
like to do is
to actually have shadow detail while not blowing out the
highlites.
I've been letting the local pro lab develop my rolls
standard plus one
push, mainly out of laziness -- I'm very capable
developing my own
stuff.

Any advice for me? It's fairly dark down there, I'm
shooting wide open
at 2.8, my shutter speeds are around ~15-60 or so. Looking
for the
existance of shadow detail, where as now my negatives are
very thin in
that area.

Thanks for your help -- it's good stuff.

--Adam Attarian

I also agree with those suggesting a faster film.
Understand that there really is no such thing as increasing
the film speed by increasing development, i.e.,"pushing".
What you are doing is increasing the contrast. The low
exposure end of the film curve, called the toe, has lower
contrast than the rest of the curve. When you underexpose
film much of the image lies on this portion of the curve so
increasing development will increase its contrast making it
more printible. Of course, it also increases the overall
contrast so any highlights falling on the normal exposure
part of the curve will become very contrasty and require
burning in to prnit.
Below some point the film just doesn't record anything.
This limit is a bit less than two stops from the ISO film
speed. No matter how much development you give the film
nothing will appear in this region except increasing fog.
The ISO method of measuring film speed has very little
safety factor. It gives just about the minimum exposure that
will result in decent shadow detail. In fact, many
photographers find somewhat more exposure improves the tonal
rendition of the iamge due to greater shadow detail.
It sounds like you are working under very difficult
conditions. I've done a lot of available light work myself
and have experienced the empty shadows you are getting. The
only answer is to use faster film or find some way of
increasing the exposure.
Some developers yield maximum shadow speed. These are
mostly Phenidone containing developers although all
Phenidone developers are not equal. The best "pushing"
developers, that is, the ones which will give you the best
shadow detail with under exposoure are Kodak T-Max or T-Max
RS, Kodak Xtol, Ilford Microphen.
Develop your own. You have control that way. A good rule
is that no pro lab knows what its doing no matter how good
its supposed to be. :-)


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

"Adam Attarian" wrote in message
om...
Hey Guys-

I'm a student doing a project on this check cashing/bail
bonds place
that has their offices underground. I've been shooting TX
pushed to
800 and then over exposing a third of a stop, with ok
results-- my
negatives are still pretty thin in places. Using a flash
is
definitely, categorically out of the question. What I'd
like to do is
to actually have shadow detail while not blowing out the
highlites.
I've been letting the local pro lab develop my rolls
standard plus one
push, mainly out of laziness -- I'm very capable
developing my own
stuff.

Any advice for me? It's fairly dark down there, I'm
shooting wide open
at 2.8, my shutter speeds are around ~15-60 or so. Looking
for the
existance of shadow detail, where as now my negatives are
very thin in
that area.

Thanks for your help -- it's good stuff.

--Adam Attarian

I also agree with those suggesting a faster film.
Understand that there really is no such thing as increasing
the film speed by increasing development, i.e.,"pushing".
What you are doing is increasing the contrast. The low
exposure end of the film curve, called the toe, has lower
contrast than the rest of the curve. When you underexpose
film much of the image lies on this portion of the curve so
increasing development will increase its contrast making it
more printible. Of course, it also increases the overall
contrast so any highlights falling on the normal exposure
part of the curve will become very contrasty and require
burning in to prnit.
Below some point the film just doesn't record anything.
This limit is a bit less than two stops from the ISO film
speed. No matter how much development you give the film
nothing will appear in this region except increasing fog.
The ISO method of measuring film speed has very little
safety factor. It gives just about the minimum exposure that
will result in decent shadow detail. In fact, many
photographers find somewhat more exposure improves the tonal
rendition of the iamge due to greater shadow detail.
It sounds like you are working under very difficult
conditions. I've done a lot of available light work myself
and have experienced the empty shadows you are getting. The
only answer is to use faster film or find some way of
increasing the exposure.
Some developers yield maximum shadow speed. These are
mostly Phenidone containing developers although all
Phenidone developers are not equal. The best "pushing"
developers, that is, the ones which will give you the best
shadow detail with under exposoure are Kodak T-Max or T-Max
RS, Kodak Xtol, Ilford Microphen.
Develop your own. You have control that way. A good rule
is that no pro lab knows what its doing no matter how good
its supposed to be. :-)


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

"Richard Knoppow" wrote
"Adam Attarian" wrote in message

I've been shooting TX pushed to 800 and then
over exposing a third of a stop

I take it to mean you are exposing at 640, and developing
for 800.

What I'd like to do is
to actually have shadow detail while not blowing out the
highlights.

I also agree with those suggesting a faster film.

Ditto.

You have two problems he high contrast and poor shadow detail.

May I recommend exposing for the shadows and then pulling the film
to control highlight contrast. Shoot at ASA 100 - 200 and reduce
development time by 40-60%. This, of course, requires there be
enough light in the shadows to allow an acceptable shutter speed.
Switch to decaf, learn muscle relaxation, take an NRA riflery
course, rent an M-Leica and a Noctilux ...

You may want to look at:

http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/menu/gallery0.html

Look under 'Noctonaut'

The low exposure end of the film curve, called the toe,
has lower contrast than the rest of the curve. When you
underexpose film much of the image lies on this portion
Below some point the film just doesn't record anything.
This limit is a bit less than two stops from the ISO film
speed.

There is a technique known as 'flashing', where you pre-expose
the film so that you are off the toe end of the curve. This
increases shadow contrast and insures that even very low
levels of light will have _some_ effect.

Pull the film from the cartridge, hang it, and give it a uniform
short exposure to light so you get a ~.1 OD darkening over base+fog.
After flashing, roll the film back into the cartridge and shoot
as usual.

Flashing can be done with a strobe on the opposite room wall or
with a 7 1/2 watt (or whatever) night-light. Make sure there are
no shadows on the film.

You will have to play around a bit to find the correct flash
exposure.

This will increase the speed of the film in the shadows, but the
overall film speed will not be affected.

I find flashing in conjunction with very careful enlarging with
high contrast paper gives the best results.

I have found another very good low light technique is to use a
chromogenic (VCN 400 Kodak???) B&W film and expose for the shadows.
The highlights will blow to hell and gone, so the film needs
to be scanned to make anything out of it.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

"Richard Knoppow" wrote
"Adam Attarian" wrote in message

I've been shooting TX pushed to 800 and then
over exposing a third of a stop

I take it to mean you are exposing at 640, and developing
for 800.

What I'd like to do is
to actually have shadow detail while not blowing out the
highlights.

I also agree with those suggesting a faster film.

Ditto.

You have two problems he high contrast and poor shadow detail.

May I recommend exposing for the shadows and then pulling the film
to control highlight contrast. Shoot at ASA 100 - 200 and reduce
development time by 40-60%. This, of course, requires there be
enough light in the shadows to allow an acceptable shutter speed.
Switch to decaf, learn muscle relaxation, take an NRA riflery
course, rent an M-Leica and a Noctilux ...

You may want to look at:

http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/menu/gallery0.html

Look under 'Noctonaut'

The low exposure end of the film curve, called the toe,
has lower contrast than the rest of the curve. When you
underexpose film much of the image lies on this portion
Below some point the film just doesn't record anything.
This limit is a bit less than two stops from the ISO film
speed.

There is a technique known as 'flashing', where you pre-expose
the film so that you are off the toe end of the curve. This
increases shadow contrast and insures that even very low
levels of light will have _some_ effect.

Pull the film from the cartridge, hang it, and give it a uniform
short exposure to light so you get a ~.1 OD darkening over base+fog.
After flashing, roll the film back into the cartridge and shoot
as usual.

Flashing can be done with a strobe on the opposite room wall or
with a 7 1/2 watt (or whatever) night-light. Make sure there are
no shadows on the film.

You will have to play around a bit to find the correct flash
exposure.

This will increase the speed of the film in the shadows, but the
overall film speed will not be affected.

I find flashing in conjunction with very careful enlarging with
high contrast paper gives the best results.

I have found another very good low light technique is to use a
chromogenic (VCN 400 Kodak???) B&W film and expose for the shadows.
The highlights will blow to hell and gone, so the film needs
to be scanned to make anything out of it.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/