Dpreview wants to cater to the simple people

"Stephen Bishop" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 07:48:01 -0800, John Navas
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:58:23 -0500, "RichA"
wrote in :

"John Navas" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:10:25 -0800 (PST), RichA
wrote in
:

Boo hoo hoo! The interfaces on the DSLRs and current P&S's confuse
them. They long for the simplicity of their iphones. Figures an
Apple fan would be crying about not understanding technology.

http://blog.dpreview.com/editorial/2...ase-for-a.html

I think the editorial is spot on.

Only for people for whom reading an owner's manual is like pulling teeth.

It shouldn't be necessary to read an owner's manual to use the product.
I can get in any car and drive it without reading the owner's manual.
It's called standardized controls.

Exactly. I was at home with my D200 the instant I picked it up in
the camera store. It is so intuitive to use that I rarely have to
pick up the manual.

People are pathetic. I've used Olympus (another brand people cry about
being difficult to use) and Pentax for the last few years. I got a D300.
It took me one night to figure out most of it. Word to the wise, all you
need to navigate menus is the ability to READ.

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:41:06 -0800, John Navas
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:03:08 -0500, Stephen Bishop
wrote in
:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:31:26 -0600, Pat Dalton
wrote:

You would do well with reading manuals before buying any camera. This is why I'd
never buy a Nikon anything. The last time I was making a decision I did just
that and quickly ruled out Nikons. Their menu systems are so convoluted and
annoying, just reading the Nikon manual is a major headache. I can only imagine
how many missed shots you'd get by trying to use their menus. Buying a Nikon
digital would be just as good as not having any camera at all. I didn't even
have to test-drive one to know it would be a huge mistake.

I realize you must be trolling for a response here, but you have to be
kidding if you think Nikon's menus are convoluted. Nikon has the
reputation of some of the most straightforward and easy to use cameras
on the market. At least that's true of their dslr models, I don't
know anything about the Coolpix line.

Sorry, but count me also as someone that finds Nikons Coolpix hard to
use without studying the manuals, and not trolling either, just
frustrated with lack of ease of use.

Perhaps that's true of the Coolpix line, I've never used them.

"RichA" wrote in message
...

"bowser" wrote in message
. com...

"RichA" wrote in message
...

"John Navas" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:10:25 -0800 (PST), RichA
wrote in
:

Boo hoo hoo! The interfaces on the DSLRs and current P&S's confuse
them. They long for the simplicity of their iphones. Figures an
Apple fan would be crying about not understanding technology.

http://blog.dpreview.com/editorial/2...ase-for-a.html

I think the editorial is spot on.

Only for people for whom reading an owner's manual is like pulling
teeth.

count me as one of those who reads the manuals, but hates the interfaces
and menu systems on pretty much all digital cameras. I put up with them,
but truly hate them and would welcom a few knobs and dials in lieu of
drilling down a menu system for a simple comand.

I wish you creatures would make up your minds. "I want them smaller!" "I
want lots of buttons!" You can frigging have BOTH!

I didn't ask for both, and have no need for any sort of ultra-tiny camera.
You may have confused me with someone else. And I'm talking about the
control systems on most digital cameras, not just P&S or SLR. Frankly, they
all suck.

"Pat Dalton" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:02:13 -0500, "bowser" wrote:

count me as one of those who reads the manuals, but hates the interfaces
and
menu systems on pretty much all digital cameras. I put up with them, but
truly hate them and would welcom a few knobs and dials in lieu of drilling
down a menu system for a simple comand.

Then you need to learn to shop. One of my most favorite P&S cameras has
one
button under every finger when holding the camera as one normally would.
Manual
zoom and focus rings included. It's like having a keyboard with all
fingers on
home-row. No need to ever enter any menu to change all the settings
normally
used. Change any setting you need quicker than blinking an eye when you
get your
eye-hand coordination worked out after a few days of use.

What camera is that?


You would do well with reading manuals before buying any camera. This is
why I'd
never buy a Nikon anything. The last time I was making a decision I did
just
that and quickly ruled out Nikons. Their menu systems are so convoluted
and
annoying, just reading the Nikon manual is a major headache. I can only
imagine
how many missed shots you'd get by trying to use their menus. Buying a
Nikon
digital would be just as good as not having any camera at all. I didn't
even
have to test-drive one to know it would be a huge mistake.

I do, but there's more to buying a camera than a menu system. I also take
into consideration little things like, say, image quality, range of lenses,
etc. But tell me why the mirror lockup on my 5D is buried deep inside a menu
system?

John Navas wrote:
[]
Not power, just forced, which would have needed the manual, and we had
neither the manual nor time to read it.

OK, IIRC the flash setting was a right press on the four-way selector,
when in taking mode. It had a flash symbol next to it, which was a good
clue! I can't recall what happens if you simply pop-up the flash on my
DSLR.

Cheers,
David

John Navas wrote:
On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:27:35 GMT, "David J Taylor"
wrote in
:

John Navas wrote:
[]
I care about the fine points -- hit or miss (aka basic usage) isn't
good enough. I rarely rely entirely on the camera -- I'm usually
tweaking a bit, exposure compensation, forced flash, backlighting
compensation, selective focus, depth of field control, shutter speed
control.
I suspect you're much the same.

I tweak occasionally, yes, but usually I'm more interested in getting the
picture. These tweaks may be no more than learning how to use the radio
or GPS system on a new car, while the basics of driving or photographing
can be taken for granted. Well, almost.

I guess you're just more intuitive or clever or lucky than I am --
I badly blew a shot just this past week because I couldn't figure out
how to set forced flash.

I recall being on holiday with a new camera whose manual I'd been
through carefully twice, so I thought I knew it well and left the
manual at home. Half way through the holiday the pop-up flash stopped
working. An hour of menu searching and experiment convinced me it was
broken. But I met another user who said he suspected I'd accidentally
set an odd option in an obscure place. He later checked his manual and
emailed me the solution.

I had a similar experience with another camera which suddenly started
refusing to do exposures longer than 30 secs, again when I was without
the manual. In that case an hour of menu searching and experiment
eventually found me the solution.

Yet I'm the kind of technical geek who gets asked to set people's
watches in aeroplanes, and who likes to read technical operating
manuals for fun.

--
Chris Malcolm

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 05:30:28 -0500, Stephen Bishop
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:41:06 -0800, John Navas
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:03:08 -0500, Stephen Bishop
wrote in
:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:31:26 -0600, Pat Dalton
wrote:

You would do well with reading manuals before buying any camera. This is why I'd
never buy a Nikon anything. The last time I was making a decision I did just
that and quickly ruled out Nikons. Their menu systems are so convoluted and
annoying, just reading the Nikon manual is a major headache. I can only imagine
how many missed shots you'd get by trying to use their menus. Buying a Nikon
digital would be just as good as not having any camera at all. I didn't even
have to test-drive one to know it would be a huge mistake.

I realize you must be trolling for a response here, but you have to be
kidding if you think Nikon's menus are convoluted. Nikon has the
reputation of some of the most straightforward and easy to use cameras
on the market. At least that's true of their dslr models, I don't
know anything about the Coolpix line.

Sorry, but count me also as someone that finds Nikons Coolpix hard to
use without studying the manuals, and not trolling either, just
frustrated with lack of ease of use.

Perhaps that's true of the Coolpix line, I've never used them.

I've owned three Coolpix cameras. The first was a store demo
out-of-the-box model that I picked up at a good price. There was no
manual included. I didn't have a problem figuring it out except for
one feature that had me going to the web for a .pdf of the manual. I
forget what that was. I think it was changing the delay time of the
self-timer.

I gave my last Coolpix to my son because his P&S died. I'll
eventually get another one because I like to have a "car camera" with
me at all times.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:05:29 GMT, "David J Taylor"
wrote in
:

John Navas wrote:
[]
Not power, just forced, which would have needed the manual, and we had
neither the manual nor time to read it.

OK, IIRC the flash setting was a right press on the four-way selector,
when in taking mode. It had a flash symbol next to it, which was a good
clue! I can't recall what happens if you simply pop-up the flash on my
DSLR.

I'm pretty sure it was buried in the menus -- I looked over the body and
tried all the likely buttons to no avail. As I recall, my old Olympus
D-40Z worked that way.

A more current case in point is my Panasonic DMC-FZ20 -- there's a
button to pop up the flash, and the sensible thing to do IMHO would be
to have it control the flash modes as well once the flash is open.
Instead the control is the right direction of the 4-way rocker control,
which is much less intuitive, the hallmark on an interface designed by
engineers, not human factors experts.
--
Best regards,
John Navas
[PLEASE NOTE: Ads belong *only* in rec.photo.marketplace.digital, as per
http://bobatkins.photo.net/info/charter.htm http://rpdfaq.50megs.com/]

David J Taylor added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

John Navas wrote:
[]
Not power, just forced, which would have needed the manual,
and we had neither the manual nor time to read it.

OK, IIRC the flash setting was a right press on the four-way
selector, when in taking mode. It had a flash symbol next to
it, which was a good clue! I can't recall what happens if you
simply pop-up the flash on my DSLR.

I think on both my Rebels, unless I am running in full Auto mode,
which I don't, I have to pop up the flash myself. There MAY be a
setting for auto pop-up and I just missed it ...

--
HP, aka Jerry

"How do you have patience for people who claim they love America,
but clearly can't stand Americans? – Sydney Ellen Wade to President
Andrew Shepherd in the movie "The American President

John Navas wrote:
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:05:29 GMT, "David J Taylor"
[]
OK, IIRC the flash setting was a right press on the four-way
selector, when in taking mode. It had a flash symbol next to it,
which was a good clue! I can't recall what happens if you simply
pop-up the flash on my DSLR.

I'm pretty sure it was buried in the menus -- I looked over the body
and tried all the likely buttons to no avail. As I recall, my old
Olympus D-40Z worked that way.

A more current case in point is my Panasonic DMC-FZ20 -- there's a
button to pop up the flash, and the sensible thing to do IMHO would be
to have it control the flash modes as well once the flash is open.
Instead the control is the right direction of the 4-way rocker
control, which is much less intuitive, the hallmark on an interface
designed by engineers, not human factors experts.

Yes, good point, John. You would imagine that people who built the
cameras actually /used/ them - or perhaps a camera is the /last/ thing
they want to see at the end of the day! G

I like your idea on flash control from the single button. The FZ5 I have
behaves the same as your FZ20, as does the compact TZ3. The Rioch R5 is
similar, except it's the left button and not the right.

One good example is the Delete Picture (Erase) button on the Nikon D40 and
D60. Instead of pressing Yes to confirm, you just press the same button
again.....

Cheers,
David