Choosing a system, the practical and the philosophical

PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 8:34 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 7:43 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 12:29 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 11:49 AM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Wow. I had not looked at specs for the D600, and that
is fascinating! The D800 and D4 are very different,
with 2 to 9 steps that are 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, and 1 EV
apart.

As I noted previously, the D7000 has 2 EV steps for
bracketing, so it and the D600 are the only Nikon that I
know of that have increments larger than 1 EV.

But the size of the increment is not all that important
by itself, and the actual functionality also depends
on the number of shots that are in a bracketed set.

The size of the increment can be quite important,
especially if shooting for HDR. It allows one to take
fewer shots to achieve the same result, with less chance
of camera motion.

But as I said, and have shown, the size of the increment
is not all that important by itself. You certainly are
not going to claim, we might hope, that the D4 is not
more functional than the D600!


You must really be bored. Why owuld you even mention
something that I didn't say or imply.

Your statement did in fact imply rather strongly that
the D600, with increments of 1, 2, and 3 EV is more
useful for HDR than the D4 that does not have increments
of 2 or 3 EV. That is false, because the D600 cannot
shoot +/- 4 EV bracketing automatically, and the D4 can.

What you stated is simply ignorant. As pointed out the
increment size *and* the number of steps are each only
of significance when both are known. The increment size
is *not* more significant for HDR than the number of
steps (nor is the number of steps more important). It
is the combination that determines the available
functionality.

The claim that with fewer shots there is less chance of
camera motion is specious. If one shoots 3 shots that
must register perfectly, or 9, either way the camera
necessarily must be mounted on a rock solid support. If
the camera will move with 9 shots, it will also move
with 3. This isn't done hand holding the camera...


typically, you are displaying your arrogance, coupled with ignorance.

The ideal HDR spread is 4 stops.2 under one on and 2
over. As I stated above If that can be achieved with 3
images, there is less chance of ghosting due to camera
movement.

BS.

Now that was a well thought out response.

It fit your comment to a tee, and there is no point giving
your opinion any credibility at all. Even if what you said
had been accurate, it is overly specific and not valid for
a discussion of generalities.

Not everyone shoots your idea of "the ideal HDR spread".

While the D600 can accomplish this with three
shots, the D800 and the D4 require five shots. As to the
D600 being better than the D4, again you are accusing me
of saying something I never said. Typically you then
take off and bluster about why I am wrong.

That is exactly what you implied to start with, and again just
above.


Assuming that there are no other qualifications. Which
assumption you seem to be making, not I.

Why try to deny that is what you said? You did, it's quoted
right there.

BTW is is done hand holding, sometimes there is no
choice.

If you make the wrong choices, don't blame the equipment.


Huh!

Hand holding... and your idea of the ideal HDR spread...

Besides, even if the camera is mounted on the
most rigid tripod, it could still be subject to
movement. Yes toady's software can handle a certain
amount of ghosting, but for a better image, I prefer to
get it as close to right in camera.

Then you would enjoy using a D800 vs a D600.


You are right. I definitely enjoy using my D800. Didn't
even consider the D600. I did consider the D4, but
decided to put the difference towards some good glass.

They are different. For some things the D4 is significantly
better than a D800. For other things the D800 is significantly
better than a D4. Budget aside, choosing one or the other is
best done by matching what kind of photography you do to the
camera.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On 1/29/2013 9:45 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:49:52 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:


Because bodies like the D800 and D4 can shoot 9 shot
brackets, and in High Speed Continous mode the camera
can be set to stop at 9 shots, it is easy to actually
bracket at +/- 4 EV with those cameras. And that is a
greater spread than the D600 can get shooting three
shots with 3 EV steps.

I don't think the D800 shoots faster than the D600... and I don't think the D4
is 3 times faster than the D600... you're a little optimistic!

Who said anything at all about faster?

Was the reference to using "High Speed Continuous" a
cause of confusion? That merely provides the fastest
rate that the camera will shoot, whatever it happens to
be. (The fastest rate possible is better in order to avoid
any change is the scene during the time a set of exposures is
taken.)

The camera can be configured for the maximum number of
shots that will be taken with a single press of the
shutter button in a continuous mode. Hence, if the
bracketing is set to a specific number of shots,
regardless of the size of the step per shot, and the
camera is in a Continuous mode with a maximum number of
exposures that equals the number set in backeting... a
full bracketed set is automatically made with a single
press of the shutter release button.

The point made was that the D4 and D800 can be set to
shoot 9 shots with each 1 EV apart. That provides an
automatic bracketed range of +4 EV to -4 EV. That
cannot be done with the D600. It can be set to 3 shots
at most, and with each at most 3 EV apart, providing
only +3 EV to -3 EV.


Uhm! 3 x 3 =9, the last time I looked at a math table.


--
PeterN

On 1/29/2013 9:47 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:49:52 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:


Because bodies like the D800 and D4 can shoot 9 shot
brackets, and in High Speed Continous mode the camera
can be set to stop at 9 shots, it is easy to actually
bracket at +/- 4 EV with those cameras. And that is a
greater spread than the D600 can get shooting three
shots with 3 EV steps.

I don't think the D800 shoots faster than the D600... and I don't think the D4
is 3 times faster than the D600... you're a little optimistic!


It doesn't. Frame rate on the D600 is 5.5. The D800
frame rate is 4. (Assuming that neither has a battery
pack.)

So what? It doesn't make any difference and was not part of
the discussion.


So then why is that important to you. Obviously you don't shoot HDR.
Frame rate can be important i reducing ghosting, when shooting under
less than ideal conditions.

--
PeterN

On 1/29/2013 9:53 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 8:34 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

snip


The ideal HDR spread is 4 stops.2 under one on and 2
over. As I stated above If that can be achieved with 3
images, there is less chance of ghosting due to camera
movement.

BS.

Now that was a well thought out response.

It fit your comment to a tee, and there is no point giving
your opinion any credibility at all. Even if what you said
had been accurate, it is overly specific and not valid for
a discussion of generalities.

Not everyone shoots your idea of "the ideal HDR spread".
?? "shoots?'

I make no claim to originality about HDR, when not shooting for a
"cartoon" look, that 2 ev over and 2 ev under + 1 normal exposure, is
ideal. That doesn't mean that there are circumstances where the image
would benefit from a variance. Just a goog GENERAL rule of thumb.

It has become increasing obvious that you do little, if any, HDR shooting.


While the D600 can accomplish this with three
shots, the D800 and the D4 require five shots. As to the
D600 being better than the D4, again you are accusing me
of saying something I never said. Typically you then
take off and bluster about why I am wrong.

That is exactly what you implied to start with, and again just
above.


Assuming that there are no other qualifications. Which
assumption you seem to be making, not I.

Why try to deny that is what you said? You did, it's quoted
right there.

BTW is is done hand holding, sometimes there is no
choice.

If you make the wrong choices, don't blame the equipment.


Huh!

Hand holding... and your idea of the ideal HDR spread...

Besides, even if the camera is mounted on the
most rigid tripod, it could still be subject to
movement. Yes toady's software can handle a certain
amount of ghosting, but for a better image, I prefer to
get it as close to right in camera.

Then you would enjoy using a D800 vs a D600.


You are right. I definitely enjoy using my D800. Didn't
even consider the D600. I did consider the D4, but
decided to put the difference towards some good glass.

They are different. For some things the D4 is significantly
better than a D800. For other things the D800 is significantly
better than a D4. Budget aside, choosing one or the other is
best done by matching what kind of photography you do to the
camera.


True. Unlike some here, I do not have an unlimited budget, so in a tie
based upon use, budget comes into play.
But to quote you, "that was not part of the original discussion."

--
PeterN

PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 9:45 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:49:52 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:


Because bodies like the D800 and D4 can shoot 9 shot
brackets, and in High Speed Continous mode the camera
can be set to stop at 9 shots, it is easy to actually
bracket at +/- 4 EV with those cameras. And that is a
greater spread than the D600 can get shooting three
shots with 3 EV steps.

I don't think the D800 shoots faster than the D600... and I don't think the D4
is 3 times faster than the D600... you're a little optimistic!

Who said anything at all about faster?

Was the reference to using "High Speed Continuous" a
cause of confusion? That merely provides the fastest
rate that the camera will shoot, whatever it happens to
be. (The fastest rate possible is better in order to avoid
any change is the scene during the time a set of exposures is
taken.)

The camera can be configured for the maximum number of
shots that will be taken with a single press of the
shutter button in a continuous mode. Hence, if the
bracketing is set to a specific number of shots,
regardless of the size of the step per shot, and the
camera is in a Continuous mode with a maximum number of
exposures that equals the number set in backeting... a
full bracketed set is automatically made with a single
press of the shutter release button.

The point made was that the D4 and D800 can be set to
shoot 9 shots with each 1 EV apart. That provides an
automatic bracketed range of +4 EV to -4 EV. That
cannot be done with the D600. It can be set to 3 shots
at most, and with each at most 3 EV apart, providing
only +3 EV to -3 EV.


Uhm! 3 x 3 =9, the last time I looked at a math table.

Uhm, you need more coffee and less of whatever it is you are doing.

Shot Count: 1 2 3
fstops : -3 0 +3

Three shots is two intervals from the first to the last.

For the D4 and similar models,

Shot Count: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
f/stops : -4 -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 +4

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 9:47 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:49:52 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:


Because bodies like the D800 and D4 can shoot 9 shot
brackets, and in High Speed Continous mode the camera
can be set to stop at 9 shots, it is easy to actually
bracket at +/- 4 EV with those cameras. And that is a
greater spread than the D600 can get shooting three
shots with 3 EV steps.

I don't think the D800 shoots faster than the D600... and I don't think the D4
is 3 times faster than the D600... you're a little optimistic!


It doesn't. Frame rate on the D600 is 5.5. The D800
frame rate is 4. (Assuming that neither has a battery
pack.)

So what? It doesn't make any difference and was not part of
the discussion.


So then why is that important to you.

You brought it up, not me.

Obviously you
don't shoot HDR. Frame rate can be important i reducing
ghosting, when shooting under less than ideal conditions.

Which is why I used High Speed Continuous in the example I
gave.

Why are you coming up with this sort of repeated nonsense?

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 9:53 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 8:34 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

snip


The ideal HDR spread is 4 stops.2 under one on and 2
over. As I stated above If that can be achieved with 3
images, there is less chance of ghosting due to camera
movement.

BS.

Now that was a well thought out response.

It fit your comment to a tee, and there is no point giving
your opinion any credibility at all. Even if what you said
had been accurate, it is overly specific and not valid for
a discussion of generalities.

Not everyone shoots your idea of "the ideal HDR spread".
?? "shoots?'

I make no claim to originality about HDR, when not
shooting for a "cartoon" look, that 2 ev over and 2 ev
under + 1 normal exposure, is ideal. That doesn't mean
that there are circumstances where the image would
benefit from a variance. Just a goog GENERAL rule of
thumb.

It has become increasing obvious that you do little, if any, HDR shooting.

Because I talk about how to use a camera in general,
rather than speak only to the few specifics that you
understand?

You're still missing the point. Which is understanding
the camera, not shooting your idea of HDR.

You are right. I definitely enjoy using my D800. Didn't
even consider the D600. I did consider the D4, but
decided to put the difference towards some good glass.

They are different. For some things the D4 is significantly
better than a D800. For other things the D800 is significantly
better than a D4. Budget aside, choosing one or the other is
best done by matching what kind of photography you do to the
camera.


True. Unlike some here, I do not have an unlimited
budget, so in a tie based upon use, budget comes into
play.
But to quote you, "that was not part of the original discussion."

So why are you throwing it into to discussion? I could care less
how much money you can spend on cameras, or not.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On 1/30/2013 10:57 AM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 9:45 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:49:52 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:


Because bodies like the D800 and D4 can shoot 9 shot
brackets, and in High Speed Continous mode the camera
can be set to stop at 9 shots, it is easy to actually
bracket at +/- 4 EV with those cameras. And that is a
greater spread than the D600 can get shooting three
shots with 3 EV steps.

I don't think the D800 shoots faster than the D600... and I don't think the D4
is 3 times faster than the D600... you're a little optimistic!

Who said anything at all about faster?

Was the reference to using "High Speed Continuous" a
cause of confusion? That merely provides the fastest
rate that the camera will shoot, whatever it happens to
be. (The fastest rate possible is better in order to avoid
any change is the scene during the time a set of exposures is
taken.)

The camera can be configured for the maximum number of
shots that will be taken with a single press of the
shutter button in a continuous mode. Hence, if the
bracketing is set to a specific number of shots,
regardless of the size of the step per shot, and the
camera is in a Continuous mode with a maximum number of
exposures that equals the number set in backeting... a
full bracketed set is automatically made with a single
press of the shutter release button.

The point made was that the D4 and D800 can be set to
shoot 9 shots with each 1 EV apart. That provides an
automatic bracketed range of +4 EV to -4 EV. That
cannot be done with the D600. It can be set to 3 shots
at most, and with each at most 3 EV apart, providing
only +3 EV to -3 EV.


Uhm! 3 x 3 =9, the last time I looked at a math table.

Uhm, you need more coffee and less of whatever it is you are doing.

Shot Count: 1 2 3
fstops : -3 0 +3

Three shots is two intervals from the first to the last.

For the D4 and similar models,

Shot Count: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
f/stops : -4 -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 +4


You have just proved my original point. Three shots are adequate fpr
HDR, if you have at least 2EV for each stop.
Go shoot some HDR and look at the results. Under most circumstances you
do not need more than a 4 EV spread.

--
PeterN

On 1/30/2013 11:01 AM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 9:47 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:49:52 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:


Because bodies like the D800 and D4 can shoot 9 shot
brackets, and in High Speed Continous mode the camera
can be set to stop at 9 shots, it is easy to actually
bracket at +/- 4 EV with those cameras. And that is a
greater spread than the D600 can get shooting three
shots with 3 EV steps.

I don't think the D800 shoots faster than the D600... and I don't think the D4
is 3 times faster than the D600... you're a little optimistic!


It doesn't. Frame rate on the D600 is 5.5. The D800
frame rate is 4. (Assuming that neither has a battery
pack.)

So what? It doesn't make any difference and was not part of
the discussion.


So then why is that important to you.

You brought it up, not me.

BobF did, and I responded. You interjected, inappropriately.



Obviously you
don't shoot HDR. Frame rate can be important i reducing
ghosting, when shooting under less than ideal conditions.

Which is why I used High Speed Continuous in the example I
gave.

And why fewer shots are better.



Why are you coming up with this sort of repeated nonsense?

It appears that the "nonsense" enminates from you.






--
PeterN

On 1/30/2013 11:06 AM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 9:53 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 8:34 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

snip


The ideal HDR spread is 4 stops.2 under one on and 2
over. As I stated above If that can be achieved with 3
images, there is less chance of ghosting due to camera
movement.

BS.

Now that was a well thought out response.

It fit your comment to a tee, and there is no point giving
your opinion any credibility at all. Even if what you said
had been accurate, it is overly specific and not valid for
a discussion of generalities.

Not everyone shoots your idea of "the ideal HDR spread".
?? "shoots?'

I make no claim to originality about HDR, when not
shooting for a "cartoon" look, that 2 ev over and 2 ev
under + 1 normal exposure, is ideal. That doesn't mean
that there are circumstances where the image would
benefit from a variance. Just a goog GENERAL rule of
thumb.

It has become increasing obvious that you do little, if any, HDR shooting.

Because I talk about how to use a camera in general,
rather than speak only to the few specifics that you
understand?

You're still missing the point. Which is understanding
the camera, not shooting your idea of HDR.

The subject was bracketing and why. Stop contorting out of you error.



You are right. I definitely enjoy using my D800. Didn't
even consider the D600. I did consider the D4, but
decided to put the difference towards some good glass.

They are different. For some things the D4 is significantly
better than a D800. For other things the D800 is significantly
better than a D4. Budget aside, choosing one or the other is
best done by matching what kind of photography you do to the
camera.


True. Unlike some here, I do not have an unlimited
budget, so in a tie based upon use, budget comes into
play.
But to quote you, "that was not part of the original discussion."

So why are you throwing it into to discussion? I could care less
how much money you can spend on cameras, or not.



Because you brought it up.
--
PeterN