Choosing a system, the practical and the philosophical

PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 12:29 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 11:49 AM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Wow. I had not looked at specs for the D600, and that
is fascinating! The D800 and D4 are very different,
with 2 to 9 steps that are 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, and 1 EV
apart.

As I noted previously, the D7000 has 2 EV steps for
bracketing, so it and the D600 are the only Nikon that I
know of that have increments larger than 1 EV.

But the size of the increment is not all that important
by itself, and the actual functionality also depends
on the number of shots that are in a bracketed set.

The size of the increment can be quite important,
especially if shooting for HDR. It allows one to take
fewer shots to achieve the same result, with less chance
of camera motion.

But as I said, and have shown, the size of the increment
is not all that important by itself. You certainly are
not going to claim, we might hope, that the D4 is not
more functional than the D600!


You must really be bored. Why owuld you even mention
something that I didn't say or imply.

Your statement did in fact imply rather strongly that
the D600, with increments of 1, 2, and 3 EV is more
useful for HDR than the D4 that does not have increments
of 2 or 3 EV. That is false, because the D600 cannot
shoot +/- 4 EV bracketing automatically, and the D4 can.

What you stated is simply ignorant. As pointed out the
increment size *and* the number of steps are each only
of significance when both are known. The increment size
is *not* more significant for HDR than the number of
steps (nor is the number of steps more important). It
is the combination that determines the available
functionality.

The claim that with fewer shots there is less chance of
camera motion is specious. If one shoots 3 shots that
must register perfectly, or 9, either way the camera
necessarily must be mounted on a rock solid support. If
the camera will move with 9 shots, it will also move
with 3. This isn't done hand holding the camera...

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On 1/29/2013 7:43 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 12:29 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 11:49 AM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Wow. I had not looked at specs for the D600, and that
is fascinating! The D800 and D4 are very different,
with 2 to 9 steps that are 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, and 1 EV
apart.

As I noted previously, the D7000 has 2 EV steps for
bracketing, so it and the D600 are the only Nikon that I
know of that have increments larger than 1 EV.

But the size of the increment is not all that important
by itself, and the actual functionality also depends
on the number of shots that are in a bracketed set.

The size of the increment can be quite important,
especially if shooting for HDR. It allows one to take
fewer shots to achieve the same result, with less chance
of camera motion.

But as I said, and have shown, the size of the increment
is not all that important by itself. You certainly are
not going to claim, we might hope, that the D4 is not
more functional than the D600!


You must really be bored. Why owuld you even mention
something that I didn't say or imply.

Your statement did in fact imply rather strongly that
the D600, with increments of 1, 2, and 3 EV is more
useful for HDR than the D4 that does not have increments
of 2 or 3 EV. That is false, because the D600 cannot
shoot +/- 4 EV bracketing automatically, and the D4 can.

What you stated is simply ignorant. As pointed out the
increment size *and* the number of steps are each only
of significance when both are known. The increment size
is *not* more significant for HDR than the number of
steps (nor is the number of steps more important). It
is the combination that determines the available
functionality.

The claim that with fewer shots there is less chance of
camera motion is specious. If one shoots 3 shots that
must register perfectly, or 9, either way the camera
necessarily must be mounted on a rock solid support. If
the camera will move with 9 shots, it will also move
with 3. This isn't done hand holding the camera...



typically, you are displaying your arrogance, coupled with ignorance.

The ideal HDR spread is 4 stops.2 under one on and 2 over. As I stated
above If that can be achieved with 3 images, there is less chance of
ghosting due to camera movement. While the D600 can accomplish this with
three shots, the D800 and the D4 require five shots. As to the D600
being better than the D4, again you are accusing me of saying something
I never said. Typically you then take off and bluster about why I am wrong.

BTW is is done hand holding, sometimes there is no choice. Besides, even
if the camera is mounted on the most rigid tripod, it could still be
subject to movement. Yes toady's software can handle a certain amount of
ghosting, but for a better image, I prefer to get it as close to right
in camera.
--
PeterN

PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 7:43 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 12:29 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 11:49 AM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Wow. I had not looked at specs for the D600, and that
is fascinating! The D800 and D4 are very different,
with 2 to 9 steps that are 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, and 1 EV
apart.

As I noted previously, the D7000 has 2 EV steps for
bracketing, so it and the D600 are the only Nikon that I
know of that have increments larger than 1 EV.

But the size of the increment is not all that important
by itself, and the actual functionality also depends
on the number of shots that are in a bracketed set.

The size of the increment can be quite important,
especially if shooting for HDR. It allows one to take
fewer shots to achieve the same result, with less chance
of camera motion.

But as I said, and have shown, the size of the increment
is not all that important by itself. You certainly are
not going to claim, we might hope, that the D4 is not
more functional than the D600!


You must really be bored. Why owuld you even mention
something that I didn't say or imply.

Your statement did in fact imply rather strongly that
the D600, with increments of 1, 2, and 3 EV is more
useful for HDR than the D4 that does not have increments
of 2 or 3 EV. That is false, because the D600 cannot
shoot +/- 4 EV bracketing automatically, and the D4 can.

What you stated is simply ignorant. As pointed out the
increment size *and* the number of steps are each only
of significance when both are known. The increment size
is *not* more significant for HDR than the number of
steps (nor is the number of steps more important). It
is the combination that determines the available
functionality.

The claim that with fewer shots there is less chance of
camera motion is specious. If one shoots 3 shots that
must register perfectly, or 9, either way the camera
necessarily must be mounted on a rock solid support. If
the camera will move with 9 shots, it will also move
with 3. This isn't done hand holding the camera...


typically, you are displaying your arrogance, coupled with ignorance.

The ideal HDR spread is 4 stops.2 under one on and 2
over. As I stated above If that can be achieved with 3
images, there is less chance of ghosting due to camera
movement.

BS.

While the D600 can accomplish this with three
shots, the D800 and the D4 require five shots. As to the
D600 being better than the D4, again you are accusing me
of saying something I never said. Typically you then
take off and bluster about why I am wrong.

That is exactly what you implied to start with, and again just
above.

BTW is is done hand holding, sometimes there is no
choice.

If you make the wrong choices, don't blame the equipment.

Besides, even if the camera is mounted on the
most rigid tripod, it could still be subject to
movement. Yes toady's software can handle a certain
amount of ghosting, but for a better image, I prefer to
get it as close to right in camera.

Then you would enjoy using a D800 vs a D600.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 16:05:54 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:

PeterN wrote:
Most Canon cameras will allow 2 stop bracketing, in the
Nikon line, I think only the D4 has that feature. Most
Nikons have only 1 stop bracketing.

Nikon cameras have various different bracketing options.
The entry level 3000 series does not have bracketing of
any kind. The 5000 series has 3 steps of up to 1/2 EV
per step. The D7000 also has 3 steps, but they can be
up to 2 EV per step too.

The high end models, from the D300 to the D800 and the
D4 all have 9 steps at up to 1 EV per step. That means
the camera can be set to high speed continuous with a
maximum of 9 frames, and with Auto Bracketing set to 9
steps 1 EV apart each press of the shutter will bracket
from -4 EV to +4 EV.

I would assume that various Canon models are just as
functional, but I don't know.


The Nikon D600 has up to 3 shots, with up to 3 stops increment per shot, but the
center shot is as dialed in, so you can have the set exposure plus up to 3 stops
below and 3 stops above. Or you can set it to 2 shots with 1 at proper exposure
and the other one off.

The D700 had up to 5 shots, but I don't remember the maximum increment... I used
to shoot at 1 stop or less anyway.

On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:49:52 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:


Because bodies like the D800 and D4 can shoot 9 shot
brackets, and in High Speed Continous mode the camera
can be set to stop at 9 shots, it is easy to actually
bracket at +/- 4 EV with those cameras. And that is a
greater spread than the D600 can get shooting three
shots with 3 EV steps.

I don't think the D800 shoots faster than the D600... and I don't think the D4
is 3 times faster than the D600... you're a little optimistic!

On 1/29/2013 8:34 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 7:43 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 12:29 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 11:49 AM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Wow. I had not looked at specs for the D600, and that
is fascinating! The D800 and D4 are very different,
with 2 to 9 steps that are 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, and 1 EV
apart.

As I noted previously, the D7000 has 2 EV steps for
bracketing, so it and the D600 are the only Nikon that I
know of that have increments larger than 1 EV.

But the size of the increment is not all that important
by itself, and the actual functionality also depends
on the number of shots that are in a bracketed set.

The size of the increment can be quite important,
especially if shooting for HDR. It allows one to take
fewer shots to achieve the same result, with less chance
of camera motion.

But as I said, and have shown, the size of the increment
is not all that important by itself. You certainly are
not going to claim, we might hope, that the D4 is not
more functional than the D600!


You must really be bored. Why owuld you even mention
something that I didn't say or imply.

Your statement did in fact imply rather strongly that
the D600, with increments of 1, 2, and 3 EV is more
useful for HDR than the D4 that does not have increments
of 2 or 3 EV. That is false, because the D600 cannot
shoot +/- 4 EV bracketing automatically, and the D4 can.

What you stated is simply ignorant. As pointed out the
increment size *and* the number of steps are each only
of significance when both are known. The increment size
is *not* more significant for HDR than the number of
steps (nor is the number of steps more important). It
is the combination that determines the available
functionality.

The claim that with fewer shots there is less chance of
camera motion is specious. If one shoots 3 shots that
must register perfectly, or 9, either way the camera
necessarily must be mounted on a rock solid support. If
the camera will move with 9 shots, it will also move
with 3. This isn't done hand holding the camera...


typically, you are displaying your arrogance, coupled with ignorance.

The ideal HDR spread is 4 stops.2 under one on and 2
over. As I stated above If that can be achieved with 3
images, there is less chance of ghosting due to camera
movement.

BS.

Now that was a well thought out response.


While the D600 can accomplish this with three
shots, the D800 and the D4 require five shots. As to the
D600 being better than the D4, again you are accusing me
of saying something I never said. Typically you then
take off and bluster about why I am wrong.

That is exactly what you implied to start with, and again just
above.


Assuming that there are no other qualifications. Which assumption you
seem to be making, not I.


BTW is is done hand holding, sometimes there is no
choice.

If you make the wrong choices, don't blame the equipment.


Huh!

Besides, even if the camera is mounted on the
most rigid tripod, it could still be subject to
movement. Yes toady's software can handle a certain
amount of ghosting, but for a better image, I prefer to
get it as close to right in camera.

Then you would enjoy using a D800 vs a D600.


You are right. I definitely enjoy using my D800. Didn't even consider
the D600. I did consider the D4, but decided to put the difference
towards some good glass.


--
PeterN

On 1/29/2013 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:49:52 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:


Because bodies like the D800 and D4 can shoot 9 shot
brackets, and in High Speed Continous mode the camera
can be set to stop at 9 shots, it is easy to actually
bracket at +/- 4 EV with those cameras. And that is a
greater spread than the D600 can get shooting three
shots with 3 EV steps.

I don't think the D800 shoots faster than the D600... and I don't think the D4
is 3 times faster than the D600... you're a little optimistic!


It doesn't. Frame rate on the D600 is 5.5. The D800 frame rate is 4.
(Assuming that neither has a battery pack.)

--
PeterN

wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 16:05:54 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:

PeterN wrote:
Most Canon cameras will allow 2 stop bracketing, in the
Nikon line, I think only the D4 has that feature. Most
Nikons have only 1 stop bracketing.

Nikon cameras have various different bracketing options.
The entry level 3000 series does not have bracketing of
any kind. The 5000 series has 3 steps of up to 1/2 EV
per step. The D7000 also has 3 steps, but they can be
up to 2 EV per step too.

The high end models, from the D300 to the D800 and the
D4 all have 9 steps at up to 1 EV per step. That means
the camera can be set to high speed continuous with a
maximum of 9 frames, and with Auto Bracketing set to 9
steps 1 EV apart each press of the shutter will bracket
from -4 EV to +4 EV.

I would assume that various Canon models are just as
functional, but I don't know.

The Nikon D600 has up to 3 shots, with up to 3 stops increment per shot, but the
center shot is as dialed in, so you can have the set exposure plus up to 3 stops
below and 3 stops above. Or you can set it to 2 shots with 1 at proper exposure
and the other one off.

That is the way all Nikon models function, with of
course differring numbers of shot and sizes for the
steps.

The D700 had up to 5 shots, but I don't remember the maximum increment... I used
to shoot at 1 stop or less anyway.

The D700 has 2-9 shots, with up to 1 EV steps.

The D700 is exactly the same as the D800, the D4 and all
of the high end Nikons from the D2X onward. The D1 had
2-3 shots with up to 1 EV steps.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:49:52 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:


Because bodies like the D800 and D4 can shoot 9 shot
brackets, and in High Speed Continous mode the camera
can be set to stop at 9 shots, it is easy to actually
bracket at +/- 4 EV with those cameras. And that is a
greater spread than the D600 can get shooting three
shots with 3 EV steps.

I don't think the D800 shoots faster than the D600... and I don't think the D4
is 3 times faster than the D600... you're a little optimistic!

Who said anything at all about faster?

Was the reference to using "High Speed Continuous" a
cause of confusion? That merely provides the fastest
rate that the camera will shoot, whatever it happens to
be. (The fastest rate possible is better in order to avoid
any change is the scene during the time a set of exposures is
taken.)

The camera can be configured for the maximum number of
shots that will be taken with a single press of the
shutter button in a continuous mode. Hence, if the
bracketing is set to a specific number of shots,
regardless of the size of the step per shot, and the
camera is in a Continuous mode with a maximum number of
exposures that equals the number set in backeting... a
full bracketed set is automatically made with a single
press of the shutter release button.

The point made was that the D4 and D800 can be set to
shoot 9 shots with each 1 EV apart. That provides an
automatic bracketed range of +4 EV to -4 EV. That
cannot be done with the D600. It can be set to 3 shots
at most, and with each at most 3 EV apart, providing
only +3 EV to -3 EV.

Speed has nothing at all to do with that discussion.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

PeterN wrote:
On 1/29/2013 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:49:52 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:


Because bodies like the D800 and D4 can shoot 9 shot
brackets, and in High Speed Continous mode the camera
can be set to stop at 9 shots, it is easy to actually
bracket at +/- 4 EV with those cameras. And that is a
greater spread than the D600 can get shooting three
shots with 3 EV steps.

I don't think the D800 shoots faster than the D600... and I don't think the D4
is 3 times faster than the D600... you're a little optimistic!


It doesn't. Frame rate on the D600 is 5.5. The D800
frame rate is 4. (Assuming that neither has a battery
pack.)

So what? It doesn't make any difference and was not part of
the discussion.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)