5 minute FB print washing time??

Hello,

Why does the bottle of PermaWash indicate a 5 minute final wash time for fiber
prints? The conventional wisdom seems to be 45 minutes to one hour, even with
hypo clearing agent. What's the truth.

Curt Blood

I tend to stick with Ilford's recommendation of 5 min water wash, 10 min
hypoclear, 5 min. final wash and have seen no problems (although if I am
doing a number of prints I use my print washer and the final time is
probably longer; for a few prints I wash them in a tray and probably do not
exceed these times by much). As far as I understand this recommendation it
is based on a a relatively short fixing time to avoid completely permeating
the paper with fixer.

If you google this topic, you will find multiple past postings on this
apparently age-old topic.

Sam

In article ,
(CBlood59) wrote:

Why does the bottle of PermaWash indicate a 5 minute final wash time for fiber
prints? The conventional wisdom seems to be 45 minutes to one hour, even with
hypo clearing agent. What's the truth.

I wish I knew, but one thing to remember is that they probably also
recommend clinically perfect, _minimum_ stop and fix times. In my
experience, many people let prints sit in the fix too long so that with
RC, the chemicals penetrate past the RC and in fiber the paper is deeply
penetrated.

I think the 5 minute time also assumes a perfect print washer. I went to a
photo school where the fiber prints were washed in moving water for 5
minutes while being constantly restacked by some lucky students, then
hypoclear, then 5 minutes in an archival washer (uncrowded) with a good
volume flowing through it. I think if the volumes aren't there you need to
increase the times some.
"Sam G" wrote in message
om...
I tend to stick with Ilford's recommendation of 5 min water wash, 10 min
hypoclear, 5 min. final wash and have seen no problems (although if I am
doing a number of prints I use my print washer and the final time is
probably longer; for a few prints I wash them in a tray and probably do
not
exceed these times by much). As far as I understand this recommendation
it
is based on a a relatively short fixing time to avoid completely
permeating
the paper with fixer.

If you google this topic, you will find multiple past postings on this
apparently age-old topic.

Sam

(CBlood59) wrote

Why does the bottle of PermaWash indicate a 5 minute final wash time
for fiber prints? The conventional wisdom seems to be 45 minutes to
one hour, even with hypo clearing agent. What's the truth.

That 5 minute final wash will do for RC. IIRC my box of KHCA
recommends 10, and 20 minutes, single and double weight. Those times
are with constant agitation and water above 55 degrees F.
There are two usuall wash methods. One uses a tray with now and then
agitation. The other uses a slot type washer wherein the water is kept
running. Slot washers are usually in operation way beyond Kodak's 10
or 20 minutes due to dead spots and bubble trouble. Those two methods
produce the 45 to 60 minute usuall wash times.
Both methods are sometimes at work for hours, sometimes overnight.
Bruce Barnbaum uses tray washing in that way.
I alternate between two trays and use hydrophobic separator sheets
to aid in the uniform diffusion of hypo outwardly. Once placed the
prints are left to sit. After the last fix a rinse, a HCA, a rinse
and that print is ready for the wash or, if more, a holding tray.
Three or four changes of water are needed. Little water is used. Dan

What is a hydrophobic separator sheet?
Regards,
Dan Kapsner

I alternate between two trays and use hydrophobic separator sheets
to aid in the uniform diffusion of hypo outwardly. Once placed the
prints are left to sit. After the last fix a rinse, a HCA, a rinse
and that print is ready for the wash or, if more, a holding tray.
Three or four changes of water are needed. Little water is used.

(DanKPhoto) wrote

What is a hydrophobic separator sheet?

I'm using polyester batting. It's available in any length from wide
rolls. Any fabric store will carry it.
Two, cut to size sheets are needed to wash one print and one sheet
more for each additional print. Always place a sheet on the tray
bottom and top the stack with one more.
Still soak tray washing is not a quick wash. With FB and conventional
processing I'd allow for a minimum of three soaks of 15, 30, and 60
minutes. Those soaks are to be proceeded by a rinse, hca, rinse
routine. The last soak only could be overnight.
If you give it a try you'll find a little fussing is required.
For example the sheeting may need a little kneeding if it is entraining
air. All in all the method is quick and simple and uses very
little water.
Although separator sheets are an intuitive answere to multiple
print congestion when tray washing, I've come across only one other
mention of their use.
Any more questions? Dan

I alternate between two trays and use hydrophobic separator sheets
to aid in the uniform diffusion of hypo outwardly. Once placed the
prints are left to sit. After the last fix a rinse, a HCA, a rinse
and that print is ready for the wash or, if more, a holding tray.
Three or four changes of water are needed. Little water is used.

There are several factors at work here.

1. If there is already a product out there that has a "10 minute wash"
someone else will introduce a "5 minute wash" product.

2. The aim point of their wash standard may be only "short term",
"industrial" or "commercial" rather than "archival". (And various
manufacturers can not even agree on what any of those terms mean.)

3. Their method of processing and washing may only be feasible in their
lab.

4. Their water may be different from yours.

Having said all that, any wash aid is much better that no wash aid. But
it's important that you do your own tests if you want an complete wash in
the least amount of time. The procedure is quite simple and also in the
book.

David Vestal had a chapter or two in his books about wash practices (and
testing). I would recommend both books to all darkroom workers. The Craft
of Photography and The Art of Black and White Enlarging. Both available
only used, alas.

--
darkroommike

----------
"CBlood59" wrote in message
...
Hello,

Why does the bottle of PermaWash indicate a 5 minute final wash time for
fiber
prints? The conventional wisdom seems to be 45 minutes to one hour, even
with
hypo clearing agent. What's the truth.

Curt Blood