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NiMH vs Lithium-Ion batteries
Could you experts please enlighten me on the differences between NiMH and
Lithium-Ion batteries? For example, why does the Canon PowerShot A-series use NiMH batteries, but the Canon PowerShot SD-series use Lithium-Ion batteries? Will lithium-ion batteries eventually replace NiMH batteries? Or will both types continue to be used well into the future? |
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NiMH vs Lithium-Ion batteries
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#3
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NiMH vs Lithium-Ion batteries
Paul Rubin wrote: writes: Could you experts please enlighten me on the differences between NiMH and Lithium-Ion batteries? For example, why does the Canon PowerShot A-series use NiMH batteries, but the Canon PowerShot SD-series use Lithium-Ion batteries? Li ion batteries can be made in arbitrary shapes while NiMH batteries are usually cylindrical. In the SD series, the thin rectangular battery helps make the camera smaller. Li ion batteries also weigh a lot less than NiMH batteries for the same amount of stored energy. A lot of the time, though, the advantages of li ion aren't that important, and manufacturers use specially made incompatible li ion batteries in order to sell additional expensive stuff to the customer. There is finally starting to be a backlash against that. A couple of years ago, most digicams used proprietary batteries and needed. Now most of the manufacturers have cameras like the Powershot A-series that use AA's, and customers understand why they benefit from that (able to use the same NiMH batteries and chargers in several cameras, etc). Will lithium-ion batteries eventually replace NiMH batteries? I hope not, at least under the current scam. Or will both types continue to be used well into the future? Yes, probably. They both have advantages and disadvantages, most of which are listed in the post above. I don't see any "scam" here. Li ion batteries usually cost more initially because they're lighter and hold a bigger charge. The camera companies charge more for them because they're made to fit the camera, and they can get away with it. When you consider the overall cost of a new digital camera and all the accessories needed, batteries, charger, memory card, card reader, etc., it isn't very much. And if it's a reasonably popular camera, a replacement battery will be available within months of the camera's release into the market at a much lower price. When I bought my new camera a couple of months ago, I researched the battery question carefully. I came to the conclusion that I didn't care whether the camera I bought used AA (standard size) or a proprietary Li Ion battery, the cost would be roughly the same, after I bought the batteries, recharger, etc. Most of the cameras that come with proprietary batteries, usually Li ion, come with a recharger. If you buy a second battery, which is a good idea, you don't have to buy a recharger, unless you need to recharge outside the camera. Whey you buy the rechargeable AA's or AAA's, you have to buy a recharger. While cheap ones are out there, I heard enough horror stories here about the cheap ones that I srpung some extra cash to get a high quality charger. So it cost me more than a second Li ion battery would have cost even at inflated dealer prices. The only serious advantage of the NiMH's in standard sizes is that in a serious bind, with no charged batteries handy, you can run to the store and get Alkalines to get you through. Expensive, considering how long they'll last in a digicam, but will get you the pix. If you do a little online research and figure out how much the standard size NiMH batteries and charger will cost, then compare it to the cost of a spare Li Ion for a particular camera, you can make an intelligent choice based on your own needs. Hope this helps in your world. |
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NiMH vs Lithium-Ion batteries
"salgud" writes:
They both have advantages and disadvantages, most of which are listed in the post above. I don't see any "scam" here. Li ion batteries usually cost more initially because they're lighter and hold a bigger charge. The camera companies charge more for them because they're made to fit the camera, and they can get away with it. When you consider the overall cost of a new digital camera and all the accessories needed, batteries, charger, memory card, card reader, etc., it isn't very much. And if it's a reasonably popular camera, a replacement battery will be available within months of the camera's release into the market at a much lower price. That "much lower price" won't come anywhere near the $8.50 for a set of 4 2300 MaH AA NiMH cells. And I'll still have an additional charger to haul around. And that charger may well not be international, and very probably doesn't work from a car lighter plug (all of which my existing NiMH charger already handles). And that battery may not be available *late* in the life of the camera; they may have stopped producing it due to low demand. In which case being unable to get a new battery (or a replacement charger) may be what forces end of life for the camera. As to cost, it depends. For a Fuji F10 at $320, paying an additional $35 for another battery is about 10%. Doing that *every three years* (which I hear is the average life of a Lion bettery) adds up over the life of a camera even higher. All of which means I may well end up buying a Canon A610 instead, and sarificing the low-light performance of the Fuji F10. (The memory card format is also somewhat of an issue, but *neither one* supports compact flash, and neither does any other decent competitor. So I'll spend probably as much as the camera costs buying new memory media in some new format, and have to carry both around (all pro-level cameras use CF, and look to continue to do so for the forseeable future because there's no reason not to; the size isn't an issue in a DSLR, and the capacity is important)). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/ Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/ Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/ |
#5
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NiMH vs Lithium-Ion batteries
salgud wrote:
Paul Rubin wrote: Li ion batteries can be made in arbitrary shapes while NiMH batteries are usually cylindrical. In the SD series, the thin rectangular battery helps make the camera smaller. Li ion batteries also weigh a lot less than NiMH batteries for the same amount of stored energy. A lot of the time, though, the advantages of li ion aren't that important, and manufacturers use specially made incompatible li ion batteries in order to sell additional expensive stuff to the customer. They both have advantages and disadvantages, most of which are listed in the post above. I don't see any "scam" here. I do. Most manufacturer-supplied Li ion batteries are way overpriced. One thing nobody has mentioned so far is that NiMH batteries have a higher self-discharge rate than Li ion batteries. So if you go for long periods without using your camera, it's best to get Li ion. |
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NiMH vs Lithium-Ion batteries
salgud wrote:
Paul Rubin wrote: writes: Could you experts please enlighten me on the differences between NiMH and Lithium-Ion batteries? For example, why does the Canon PowerShot A-series use NiMH batteries, but the Canon PowerShot SD-series use Lithium-Ion batteries? Li ion batteries can be made in arbitrary shapes while NiMH batteries are usually cylindrical. In the SD series, the thin rectangular battery helps make the camera smaller. Li ion batteries also weigh a lot less than NiMH batteries for the same amount of stored energy. A lot of the time, though, the advantages of li ion aren't that important, and manufacturers use specially made incompatible li ion batteries in order to sell additional expensive stuff to the customer. There is finally starting to be a backlash against that. A couple of years ago, most digicams used proprietary batteries and needed. Now most of the manufacturers have cameras like the Powershot A-series that use AA's, and customers understand why they benefit from that (able to use the same NiMH batteries and chargers in several cameras, etc). Will lithium-ion batteries eventually replace NiMH batteries? I hope not, at least under the current scam. Or will both types continue to be used well into the future? Yes, probably. They both have advantages and disadvantages, most of which are listed in the post above. I don't see any "scam" here. Li ion batteries usually cost more initially because they're lighter and hold a bigger charge. The camera companies charge more for them because they're made to fit the camera, and they can get away with it. You've just outlined the scam, such as it is. Were the camera makers thinking, "We can force people to buy expensive batteries from us," when they went to proprietary batteries? It most likely occurred to them. Fortunately for customers, the market is fairly good at filling voids like that with less expensive replacements. When you consider the overall cost of a new digital camera and all the accessories needed, batteries, charger, memory card, card reader, etc., it isn't very much. And if it's a reasonably popular camera, a replacement battery will be available within months of the camera's release into the market at a much lower price. When I bought my new camera a couple of months ago, I researched the battery question carefully. I came to the conclusion that I didn't care whether the camera I bought used AA (standard size) or a proprietary Li Ion battery, the cost would be roughly the same, after I bought the batteries, recharger, etc. Most of the cameras that come with proprietary batteries, usually Li ion, come with a recharger. If you buy a second battery, which is a good idea, you don't have to buy a recharger, unless you need to recharge outside the camera. Whey you buy the rechargeable AA's or AAA's, you have to buy a recharger. While cheap ones are out there, I heard enough horror stories here about the cheap ones that I srpung some extra cash to get a high quality charger. All this frenzy over smart chargers is amusing. I use two dumb-as-a- rock chargers hooked up to a timer that's set to turn on for 1/2 hour a day. I have three sets of batteries. One's always in the camera, and the other two are normally getting trickle-charged in the chargers. When I go off on a shoot, the charged spares go in the bag. When I come back the depleted batteries go in the chargers with the timer set to 18 hours. (Approximately a full charge for these cells and these chargers.) Once things are back to steady-state, I'm back to two sets being trickle-charged and one in the camera. It's so dumb, it's incapable of producing a horror story. :-) So it cost me more than a second Li ion battery would have cost even at inflated dealer prices. The only serious advantage of the NiMH's in standard sizes is that in a serious bind, with no charged batteries handy, you can run to the store and get Alkalines to get you through. Expensive, considering how long they'll last in a digicam, but will get you the pix. If you do a little online research and figure out how much the standard size NiMH batteries and charger will cost, then compare it to the cost of a spare Li Ion for a particular camera, you can make an intelligent choice based on your own needs. Yup. Even figuring that Li ion batteries die in three years or so regardless of use, the cost of batteries is a small factor in a camera decision. I prefer AA's, but the camera I'm pinin' for uses a proprietary battery. sigh Hope this helps in your world. As do I. Paul Allen |
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NiMH vs Lithium-Ion batteries
Bill Tuthill wrote:
salgud wrote: Paul Rubin wrote: Li ion batteries can be made in arbitrary shapes while NiMH batteries are usually cylindrical. In the SD series, the thin rectangular battery helps make the camera smaller. Li ion batteries also weigh a lot less than NiMH batteries for the same amount of stored energy. A lot of the time, though, the advantages of li ion aren't that important, and manufacturers use specially made incompatible li ion batteries in order to sell additional expensive stuff to the customer. They both have advantages and disadvantages, most of which are listed in the post above. I don't see any "scam" here. I do. Most manufacturer-supplied Li ion batteries are way overpriced. One thing nobody has mentioned so far is that NiMH batteries have a higher self-discharge rate than Li ion batteries. So if you go for long periods without using your camera, it's best to get Li ion. So many tradeoffs! The self-discharge problem is avoided by keeping your spares on a trickle charge. The batteries in the camera may discharge by the next time you use it, but the spares are always fresh. And Li ion batteries self-degrade over time even when they're not being used. Which is worse? A battery that predictably loses 1% of its charge per day, or one that degrades to the point of unusability after a few years? I dunno. I think the quality of the glass and the ease with which I can get the camera to take the picture I see are more important than the power source. Paul Allen |
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NiMH vs Lithium-Ion batteries
brainlessly trolls:
Could you experts please enlighten me on the differences between NiMH and Lithium-Ion batteries? [ ... unrelated babble deleted ...] Why not just google up the answer in a few moments? www.google.com: NiMH lithium ion Quickly reveals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NiMH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery |
#9
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NiMH vs Lithium-Ion batteries
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:23:33 -0800, Paul Allen wrote:
All this frenzy over smart chargers is amusing. I use two dumb-as-a- rock chargers hooked up to a timer that's set to turn on for 1/2 hour a day. I have three sets of batteries. One's always in the camera, and the other two are normally getting trickle-charged in the chargers. I skipped replying to your other message where you suggested trickle charging NiMH batteries. Actually (and I think I got this from some battery manufacturer's white paper, not sure of the source, possibly Energizer) trickle charging is fine for NiCD batteries, but not good for NiMH, so many NiMH chargers don't trickle charge. But I do use your timer trick to keep some appliance chargers going, though with two 1/2 hour charges/day. I use enough AA NiMH batteries in devices other than cameras so if I need a freshly charged set I usually have one or two available that were charged no more than a few days earlier. I normally use a fairly slow "smart" charger (more than 4 hours), but if I were to quickly need a charged set but none were available, I also have a 30 minute charger, so the low discharge rate advantage of lithium rechargeables isn't as significant as it might have been years earlier when the time required to charge NiCD and NiMH batteries was much greater. As many people here are aware, there are also several 15 minute chargers available, so it's not like the bad old days when many chargers needed 13 hours (or more) to finish charging, and if you needed to charger two sets of batteries . . . When I go off on a shoot, the charged spares go in the bag. When I come back the depleted batteries go in the chargers with the timer set to 18 hours. (Approximately a full charge for these cells and these chargers.) Once things are back to steady-state, I'm back to two sets being trickle-charged and one in the camera. It's so dumb, it's incapable of producing a horror story. :-) You've avoided the biggest risk, having a temporary power failure while using fairly fast, high current "dumb" (timer based) chargers. And even with those, horror stories wouldn't be very likely. Just a slight reduction (possibly not even noticeable) in the battery capacity. The horror stories are greatly overrated, but assuming the worst, since they're only NiMH, it'll only cost a few dollars to get a new set, and a set that's probably higher capacity than the ones they're replacing. The *real* horror stories (involving smoke, flame and worse) almost always occur when recharging lithiums, and fortunately, that's fairly rare. |
#10
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NiMH vs Lithium-Ion batteries
On 29 Nov 2005 23:05:20 -0800, Paul Rubin
wrote: Li ion batteries can be made in arbitrary shapes while NiMH batteries are usually cylindrical. Usually. But there's nothing that prevents NiMH or alkaline or manganese or carbon zinc from assuming arbitrary shapes. Sony's small, thin "gumstick" rechargeable batteries are available in both NiMH and Lithium versions. Not replaceable, as their voltages are quite different. I haven't examined the lithium versions closely, but I assume (hope) they're constructed to make it impossible to be inserted in equiplment that uses the NiMH gumsticks. And of course the super thin batteries used in greeting cards for over a decade weren't lithium. Caveat: another assumption. In the SD series, the thin rectangular battery helps make the camera smaller. Li ion batteries also weigh a lot less than NiMH batteries for the same amount of stored energy. Lithiums do weigh much less, but in such small cameras, the weight of small non-lithium batteries would hardly be objectionable. My old not-very-efficient Canon Powershot uses a battery pack containing 3 AAA NiMh cells. Considering the great efficiency improvements cameras have made in the intervening years, only two AAA batteries would provide much greater battery life per charge in a new, smaller camera. Two of these AAAs could fit in an extremely small camera, wouldn't weigh very much, and I'd consider getting one as long as it had some manual controls. But I wouldn't get any that use lithium batteries, not because they'd cost more, although in the long run the additional cost would be significant, but because someday replacement batteries probably won't be available. I'm not a big fan of planned obsolescence. |
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