Seeking a Master Printing Workshop

Now, what I said was that I've heard such comments from people who've
attended
some of his workshops.

Sorry but that is not what you said at all. Read your own message (which of
course you've snipped here so that the differences can't be seen)..

Now, if people want to go watch someone work that is
fine. I just think they should be informed, or at least aware that they
should
ask.

You're relying on something you heard from "a devotee" (your first message)
or from "some people" (your second message). I'm relating my personal
experience in attending three workshops for a total of four weeks. Never in
those four weeks have I seen John simply sit there making his own prints
while people watched, especially not prints that he owed to anyone. So you
aren't informing anyone of anything, you're misinforming.

Your antagonism towards me is well documented. Please save it for your own
private moments

Where is that documented? Actually I've defended you here on several
occasions, most recently when you offered advice about testing. I have also
disputed some of the things you've said here when I thought they were
incorrect but I have never engaged in any "personal attacks."

You have basically libeled someone (by saying that he uses workshop time for
which students have pad to make his own personal prints that he owes to
people) because of something you heard from "a devotee" or from "some
people" depending on which of your two messages, if either, one chooses to
believe. Since I have personal knowledge as opposed to hearsay, and know for
a fact that your description of the workshops is incorrect, I've pointed out
your mistake. My purpose in doing so isn't to personally attack you. I've
corrected your mistake so that people who otherwise might benefit from
attending one of John's excellent workshops don't stay away after reading
your erroneous description of them. You perhaps consider that a "personal
attack," I consider it correction of an error.

"CamArtsMag" wrote in message
...
Subject: Seeking a Master Printing Workshop
From: "BCampbell"
Date: 2/2/2004 5:35 PM Mountain Standard Time
Message-id:

Steve Simmons said:

"I've heard this from of his devotees." (sic)

You have no personal experience whatsoever, you simply heard it from
someone
but you don't say that with the original message, you try to pass it off
as
fact until someone call you on it, then the best you can do is "I heard if
from one of his devotees." Amazing, especially coming from the guy who's
always lecturing us about expressing personal opinions without personal

experience.

Your antagonism towards me is well documented. Please save it for your own
private moments

Now, what I said was that I've heard such comments from people who've
attended
some of his workshops. Now, if people want to go watch someone work that
is
fine. I just think they should be informed, or at least aware that they
should
ask. All I am trying to do is make people aware of their choices. I have
no
other agenda.

steve simmons

Subject: Seeking a Master Printing Workshop
From: "BCampbell"
Date: 2/3/2004 6:12 AM Mountain Standard Time
Message-id:

Now, what I said was that I've heard such comments from people who've
attended
some of his workshops.

Sorry but that is not what you said at all. Read your own message (which of
course you've snipped here so that the differences can't be seen)..

Now, if people want to go watch someone work that is
fine. I just think they should be informed, or at least aware that they
should
ask.

You're relying on something you heard from "a devotee" (your first message)
or from "some people" (your second message). I'm relating my personal
experience in attending three workshops for a total of four weeks. Never in
those four weeks have I seen John simply sit there making his own prints
while people watched, especially not prints that he owed to anyone. So you
aren't informing anyone of anything, you're misinforming.

Your antagonism towards me is well documented. Please save it for your own
private moments

Where is that documented? Actually I've defended you here on several
occasions, most recently when you offered advice about testing. I have also
disputed some of the things you've said here when I thought they were
incorrect but I have never engaged in any "personal attacks."

You have basically libeled someone (by saying that he uses workshop time for
which students have pad to make his own personal prints that he owes to
people) because of something you heard from "a devotee" or from "some
people" depending on which of your two messages, if either, one chooses to
believe. Since I have personal knowledge as opposed to hearsay, and know for
a fact that your description of the workshops is incorrect, I've pointed out
your mistake. My purpose in doing so isn't to personally attack you. I've
corrected your mistake so that people who otherwise might benefit from
attending one of John's excellent workshops don't stay away after reading
your erroneous description of them. You perhaps consider that a "personal
attack," I consider it correction of an error.

"CamArtsMag" wrote in message
...
Subject: Seeking a Master Printing Workshop
From: "BCampbell"
Date: 2/2/2004 5:35 PM Mountain Standard Time
Message-id:

Steve Simmons said:

"I've heard this from of his devotees." (sic)

You have no personal experience whatsoever, you simply heard it from
someone
but you don't say that with the original message, you try to pass it off
as
fact until someone call you on it, then the best you can do is "I heard if
from one of his devotees." Amazing, especially coming from the guy who's
always lecturing us about expressing personal opinions without personal

experience.

Your antagonism towards me is well documented. Please save it for your own
private moments

Now, what I said was that I've heard such comments from people who've
attended
some of his workshops. Now, if people want to go watch someone work that
is
fine. I just think they should be informed, or at least aware that they
should
ask. All I am trying to do is make people aware of their choices. I have
no
other agenda.

steve simmons


I have talked to people who have taken Sexton's workshops in Carmel and they
have confirmed that you do not get to print your own negs. Instead you watch
John make prints and demonstrate different techniques. That may be different
from your experience but that does not invalidate what I have said or the
experience of these other people

Now, I have not been able to confirm that he makes prints owed to people who
have purchased them so I will withdraw this remark and not make it again until
and unless I can confirm it.

Now, if someone wants to become a better informed consumer and check out
printing workshops they can ask if they will have an opportunity to print their
own negs with guidance.Becasue of this discussion thread they can decide what
type of experience they want. It does not matter to me as long as people are
happy with their choice.

As far as my speaking outside of my personal experience what I have suggested
many times is that people giving recommendations on cameras also tell us what
they photograph and what range of lenses they use. This places their
recommendations in a context.

steve simmons

"Ken Smith" wrote

So...does anybody know of a great
printer that has a workshop?

Fascinating how few people are mentioned as
printers. Tice and Sexton. Forget Barnbaum? ...
Where's the working stiffs who gain great reputations with
pros/artists and get hired to do their work I wonder.

There is the old adage: "Those who can, do. Those who can't,
teach." Though cynical, there is an awfull lot of truth in
it: those who make good teachers often do not have the skills
and temperament to make good artisans and vice-versa. The
teaching and the doing may involve the same subject matter but
the skill sets for the two do not overlap.

The person who can do both well is rare.

There is another adage, though: "To really learn something
one must teach it."

If you can't find yourself a teacher, then you must become
one. What you need to do is to find some students to
practice on (er, teach).

Hint: If there is a secret, it is to use Tri-X in D-76.

--
Nick Lindan

words of wisdom or cynicism

Subject: Seeking a Master Printing Workshop
From: "Nicholas O. Lindan"
Date: 2/3/2004 3:03 PM Mountain Standard Time
Message-id: . net

"Ken Smith" wrote

So...does anybody know of a great
printer that has a workshop?

Fascinating how few people are mentioned as
printers. Tice and Sexton. Forget Barnbaum? ...
Where's the working stiffs who gain great reputations with
pros/artists and get hired to do their work I wonder.

There is the old adage: "Those who can, do. Those who can't,
teach." Though cynical, there is an awfull lot of truth in
it: those who make good teachers often do not have the skills
and temperament to make good artisans and vice-versa. The
teaching and the doing may involve the same subject matter but
the skill sets for the two do not overlap.

The person who can do both well is rare.

There is another adage, though: "To really learn something
one must teach it."

If you can't find yourself a teacher, then you must become
one. What you need to do is to find some students to
practice on (er, teach).

Hint: If there is a secret, it is to use Tri-X in D-76.

--
Nick Lindan


This is a sad comment on the poster. George Tice has a long and well respected
career as a photographer and printer. To suggest that he teaches because he
can't do anything else is absurd. I suggest that this poster put his attitude
down and study some of Mr. Tice's accomplishments before he again makes such
absurd comments.

As for Tri-X and D-76 being the answer to making good prints this is an equally
absurd comment. If you looked at the work of Adams, Paul Caponigro, Tice,
William Clift, White, etc. I doubt that many of them use this 'magic'
combination.

If I was going to take a printing workshop Tice would be my first choice.

steve simmons

On 3-Feb-2004, "Nicholas O. Lindan" wrote:

There is the old adage: "Those who can, do. Those who can't,
teach." Though cynical, there is an awfull lot of truth in
it: those who make good teachers often do not have the skills
and temperament to make good artisans and vice-versa. The
teaching and the doing may involve the same subject matter but
the skill sets for the two do not overlap.

The person who can do both well is rare.

In the case of the photographer/teachers mentioned in this thread, the old
adage is wrong. Each of the people mentioned is an outstanding photographer.
Each of them enjoys teaching enough to share their knowledge with the rest
of us.

Once one gets past the formalized teaching of school/college/university, one
of the great joys in life is sitting at the feet of a master and actually
learning one's craft. At that point the quality of the teaching is
irrelevant, it's the students responsibility to get as much as possible from
the master. This is true in virtually all the arts.

Fine-art photography has a great tradition of workshops and classes taught
by the very best artists of their era, Weston, Adams, White, Camponigro ...
to slander them as a group is neither useful or appropriate.

--
Tom Thackrey
www.creative-light.com
tom (at) creative (dash) light (dot) com
do NOT send email to (it's reserved for spammers)