Call for Entries - Undewater Images Photo-Video Competition

" H. Huntzinger" wrote in
message
...
"me" wrote:
You owe it to yourself to go read the fine print before making a
public
comment on the merits of any Photo Contest announcement.

I challenged the OP to prove me wrong. He did not.

Incorrect: the citation for the rules was provided in his original post
before you even asked for it, via a URL. You simply chose to not click
on his URL citation to go read the fine print. Your fault, not his.

In the bottom left hand corner of the contest rules:
http://www.uwimages.org/docs/Rules2005.pdf It says: "In submitting any entry
the owner grants Underwater Images the right to use such photos and videos
for no more than 2 years".
For a photographer this means that he will be prevented from selling
exclusive use (a.k.a. licensing) of his photo for 2 years. This onerous
restriction represents a significant loss of revenue for the photographer.

To now whine about how he won't repeat himself is *lame* sour grapes.

Look at your own posts sir.

If you were trying to make your criticisms appear credible, this not how
to score points.

My criticisms stand on their own merits and have not been challenged by the
OP. It is never my objective to "score points" and I feel no need to prove
credibility to anyone, least of all *you*.
Goodbye,
me

me wrote:

In the bottom left hand corner of the contest rules:
http://www.uwimages.org/docs/Rules2005.pdf It says: "In submitting
any entry
the owner grants Underwater Images the right to use such photos and
videos
for no more than 2 years".
For a photographer this means that he will be prevented from selling
exclusive use (a.k.a. licensing) of his photo for 2 years. This
onerous
restriction represents a significant loss of revenue for the
photographer.

This is an "amateur" photo competition. "Revenue" would indicate the
photographer being a professional, and therefore generally inelligible,
or at least should not be a major concern for the limited time stated.
Anyone selling "exclusive rights" to a photo should be getting the
photographer enough money for the photo that they would by definition
not be an amateur. A true professional photographer would never enter
an amateur photo competition, since they could lose to someone who just
got a lucky shot. Professionals strive toward consistency and shooting
for job assignment, not for winning a trip or a new housing. Underwater
Images has actually helped a few photographers make money on their
photos from the exposure and inquiries that have come from being posted
on the website as winners.

My criticisms stand on their own merits and have not been challenged
by the
OP.

LOL... Your libelous and admittedly flaming postings HAVE been
challenged, and I believe shown to have little or no merit. Being
skeptical is a virtue and necessity in these times, but you've gone
beyond that in labeling something a "scam" without backing yourself up
with facts to prove it. In America, there is a presumption of innocence
unless proven otherwise. Therefore, an organization should not need to
prove or post in a public newsgroup every detail of what is mostly
available on the links listed in the original posting.

"ME", every post you've made here lessens your reputation as a mature
and serious person. If I were you, I'd hide behind that anonymity too
at this point.

me wrote:
"uwphotographer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Yes, that scholarship is provided by the OHIO Council of Skin &
Scuba
Divers, Inc. an Ohio non-profit organization of dive clubs.
Underwater
Images is held in conjunction with Scubafest(www.scubafest.org), a
dive
show held in Ohio by the OCSSDI. Scholars don't necessarliy attend
school or have their career in Ohio though.

The bottom of this page http://www.uwimages.org/contributions.htm
says that
the scholarship will be awareded to "a person from Ohio". This proves
that
it is a *requirement* that the recipient be an Ohio resident, just as
I said
previously.

I answered yes, but that's only a general statement. The OCSSDI, not
Underwater Images selects the requirements. In general most OCSSDI
members are from Ohio, but don't necessarily have to be.


Page 10, paragraph 4:
http://ocssdi.org/fp/2004faceplate-spring.pdf

It says $10K was raised by scubafest and $1K was given to the
scholarship.
Exactly who recieved the rest of the money and exactly how much did
they
recieve? Don't tell me to contact someone else for an answer, you're
the one
asking for money. As you state above "Underwater Images is held in
conjunction with Scubafest" which sounds like an affiliation or at
least a
circular relationship.

Since asked, the OCSSDI is an organization of dive clubs in Ohio. It
sponsors Scubafest, a public dive show, and also has a sesparate
scholarship fund. Underwater Images is a separate entity which happens
to be run by people who are members of the OCSSDI and Ohio dive clubs,
but UWimages is not run by the OCSSDI. Underwater Images donated money
specifically to the scholarship fund. However, If anyone is interested,
the OCSSDI, through scubafest dontated $3,000 to the Honduras Dental
project http://www.scubafest.org/Charities/Charities.html, and uses
other collected funds to pay speaker fees, show expenses, and further
OCSSDI causes such as recent work to protect divers rights to access
and preserve Lake Erie shipwrecks and decriminalize the possession of
medical oxygen by divers in Ohio (info available at ocssdi.org). In
itself, the OCSSDI is a worthy non-profit organization as well, even
though it's a moot point regarding this thread. OCSSDI offers a venue
for the competition with scubafest, and the competition helps support
the scholarship fund of the OCSSDI. If you want a complete and exact
accounting of Scubafest, I cannot answer you because it's a separate
organization. However, I know some of the funds are held to finance the
next year's scubafest costs.


The majority of funds have gone to marine conservation and
environmental education organizations listed on the site.

What are the exact figures?

I'm not the treasurer, I'm the webmaster, so I don't have the exact
figures. However, if you read the website
http://www.uwimages.org/contributions.htm it clearly indicates that
over $9,000 has been donated to Wildcoast since 1998, which is the
figure given to me last year. Normally income over expenses is between
$1000 and $3000 which is donated to various causes that meet the
requirements of the mission statement.

You give money but you don't know what the requirements for
eligibility are
or how much need (if any) the recipient of the scholarship has for
the
money???

No, However myself and the director of Underwater Images have both been
longtime members and former board members of the OCSSDI, and are
confident that the selection recommended by the sholarship committee to
the board will be a worthy person, whether finacially or academically.


Contact the committe at OCSSDI for your answer.

They didn't post in a NG promoting a contest asking for entry fees,
you did.

I did not post asking for donations for the scholarship fund. The
competition does charge entry fees to cover costs, and hopefully has
some left over to give to worthy causes. Even if nothing is left over
to donate, it's still non-profit with fees covering operating expenses.
Bashing the Call for entries post may actually have a negative effect
on the amounts available for donation.

Many likely are acquaintances or relatives of OCSSDI members since
they
have
to be a member of the OCSSDI or a member dive club for eligibility.

So this scholarship is only for the benefit of Ohio residents who are
members of an Ohio dive club.

No, you don't have to be a member of a dive club or a resident of Ohio,
if you would read the application
http://www.ocssdi.org/docs/scholarship_version40.pdf. Individuals can
join the OCSSDI as well. You don't have to be from Ohio to join. The
OCSSDI often has members from Michigan, Indiana, and Kentucky, and even
Ontario as well. A few former Ohioans living in Florida and elesewhere
are members. Nothing says you can't be from from another state or
country to join OCSSDI.

Mark Beatty, webmaster
Undewater Images Photo-Video Competition
www.uwimages.org

"me" wrote:

" H. Huntzinger" wrote:

Incorrect: the citation for the rules was provided in his original post
before you even asked for it, via a URL. You simply chose to not click
on his URL citation to go read the fine print. Your fault, not his.

In the bottom left hand corner of the contest rules:
http://www.uwimages.org/docs/Rules2005.pdf It says: "In submitting any entry
the owner grants Underwater Images the right to use such photos and videos
for no more than 2 years".


And it also goes on to say:

"All copyrights will be retained by the entrant and
recognition will be given to the photographer/videographer."

Which answers the keystone litmus test for "photo contest scam".



For a photographer this means that he will be prevented from selling
exclusive use (a.k.a. licensing) of his photo for 2 years. This onerous
restriction represents a significant loss of revenue for the photographer.

Which does not preclude the photographer from selling the image at all.

Yes, you are technically correct that there is a theoretical potential
of the photographer losing _some_ revenue as per what you say. However,
the dollar value difference to become "onerous" and "significant" is
subject to individual personal opinion.

Instead of hand-waving about this allegedly huge problem, please cite
actual and realistic market price differences for UW images so that the
rest of us can decide for ourselves if the theoretical potential
difference passes or fails our personal standards of "significance".

FWIW, if the difference is less than the cost of one of my UW strobes, I
would not consider it to be significant enough to worry about. YMMV.



My criticisms stand on their own merits...

....and fall on them too. As do all of us.


It is never my objective to "score points" and I feel no need to prove
credibility to anyone, least of all *you*.

Claim disproved by the fact that you chose to respond.


-hh

" H. Huntzinger" wrote in
message
...
"me" wrote:

" H. Huntzinger" wrote:

Incorrect: the citation for the rules was provided in his original
post
before you even asked for it, via a URL. You simply chose to not
click
on his URL citation to go read the fine print. Your fault, not his.

In the bottom left hand corner of the contest rules:
http://www.uwimages.org/docs/Rules2005.pdf It says: "In submitting any
entry
the owner grants Underwater Images the right to use such photos and
videos
for no more than 2 years".

And it also goes on to say:

"All copyrights will be retained by the entrant and
recognition will be given to the photographer/videographer."

Which answers the keystone litmus test for "photo contest scam".

I prefer cash to recognition. YMMV

For a photographer this means that he will be prevented from selling
exclusive use (a.k.a. licensing) of his photo for 2 years. This onerous
restriction represents a significant loss of revenue for the
photographer.

Which does not preclude the photographer from selling the image at all.

True. He may still sell it as an art print. He may not license the image in
any manner for 2 years.

Yes, you are technically correct that there is a theoretical potential
of the photographer losing _some_ revenue as per what you say.

Not some, *all* revenue from licensing for 2 years.

However,
the dollar value difference to become "onerous" and "significant" is
subject to individual personal opinion.

DUH!

Instead of hand-waving about this allegedly huge problem, please cite
actual and realistic market price differences for UW images so that the
rest of us can decide for ourselves if the theoretical potential
difference passes or fails our personal standards of "significance".

Any photographers reading this will (must) answer that question for
themselves.

FWIW, if the difference is less than the cost of one of my UW strobes, I
would not consider it to be significant enough to worry about. YMMV.

Others (myself included) may disagree and their MMV.

My criticisms stand on their own merits...

...and fall on them too. As do all of us.

Then they are at least as good as yours if not better IMO.

It is never my objective to "score points" and I feel no need to prove
credibility to anyone, least of all *you*.

Claim disproved by the fact that you chose to respond.

Untrue. My posts are of value to photographers who considered entering this
contest. I believe they should think twice about paying a fee and giving up
licensing revenues for 2 years in exchange for a *chance* to win prizes
which IMO are of questionable value. YMMV so why don't you (did you) enter?
me

" H. Huntzinger" wrote in
message
...
"me" wrote:

" H. Huntzinger" wrote:

Incorrect: the citation for the rules was provided in his original
post
before you even asked for it, via a URL. You simply chose to not
click
on his URL citation to go read the fine print. Your fault, not his.

In the bottom left hand corner of the contest rules:
http://www.uwimages.org/docs/Rules2005.pdf It says: "In submitting any
entry
the owner grants Underwater Images the right to use such photos and
videos
for no more than 2 years".

And it also goes on to say:

"All copyrights will be retained by the entrant and
recognition will be given to the photographer/videographer."

Which answers the keystone litmus test for "photo contest scam".

I prefer cash to recognition. YMMV

For a photographer this means that he will be prevented from selling
exclusive use (a.k.a. licensing) of his photo for 2 years. This onerous
restriction represents a significant loss of revenue for the
photographer.

Which does not preclude the photographer from selling the image at all.

True. He may still sell it as an art print. He may not license the image in
any manner for 2 years.

Yes, you are technically correct that there is a theoretical potential
of the photographer losing _some_ revenue as per what you say.

Not some, *all* revenue from licensing for 2 years.

However,
the dollar value difference to become "onerous" and "significant" is
subject to individual personal opinion.

DUH!

Instead of hand-waving about this allegedly huge problem, please cite
actual and realistic market price differences for UW images so that the
rest of us can decide for ourselves if the theoretical potential
difference passes or fails our personal standards of "significance".

Any photographers reading this will (must) answer that question for
themselves.

FWIW, if the difference is less than the cost of one of my UW strobes, I
would not consider it to be significant enough to worry about. YMMV.

Others (myself included) may disagree and their MMV.

My criticisms stand on their own merits...

...and fall on them too. As do all of us.

Then they are at least as good as yours if not better IMO.

It is never my objective to "score points" and I feel no need to prove
credibility to anyone, least of all *you*.

Claim disproved by the fact that you chose to respond.

Untrue. My posts are of value to photographers who considered entering this
contest. I believe they should think twice about paying a fee and giving up
licensing revenues for 2 years in exchange for a *chance* to win prizes
which IMO are of questionable value. YMMV so why don't you (did you) enter?
me

"uwphotographer" wrote in message
oups.com...
me wrote:

In the bottom left hand corner of the contest rules:
http://www.uwimages.org/docs/Rules2005.pdf It says: "In submitting
any entry
the owner grants Underwater Images the right to use such photos and
videos
for no more than 2 years".
For a photographer this means that he will be prevented from selling
exclusive use (a.k.a. licensing) of his photo for 2 years. This
onerous
restriction represents a significant loss of revenue for the
photographer.

This is an "amateur" photo competition. "Revenue" would indicate the
photographer being a professional, and therefore generally inelligible,
or at least should not be a major concern for the limited time stated.

IMO 2 years is significant. Others my vary.

Anyone selling "exclusive rights" to a photo should be getting the
photographer enough money for the photo that they would by definition
not be an amateur.

Untrue. Any photographer can sell exclusive rights to their photos.

Professionals strive toward consistency and shooting
for job assignment, not for winning a trip or a new housing.

Untrue again. Photographers enter contests for many reasons which *could*
including those you mentioined.

Underwater
Images has actually helped a few photographers make money on their
photos from the exposure and inquiries that have come from being posted
on the website as winners.

Not many contests require every entrant to grant exclusive rights to the
contest owner for 2 years (or any length of time) why do you?

Being
skeptical is a virtue and necessity in these times, but you've gone
beyond that in labeling something a "scam" without backing yourself up
with facts to prove it.

It is you and the manner in which you made your solicitation that I am
suspicious of, that was what influenced my judgement.

In America, there is a presumption of innocence
unless proven otherwise.

This is not a courtroom. You are not *forced* to put make a defence.

Therefore, an organization should not need to
prove or post in a public newsgroup every detail of what is mostly
available on the links listed in the original posting.

I don't think a NG is a proper venue for soliciting entry fees.

"ME", every post you've made here lessens your reputation as a mature
and serious person. If I were you, I'd hide behind that anonymity too
at this point.

My posts stand, anonymity is not a disqualification.
me

"uwphotographer" wrote in message
oups.com...
me wrote:

In the bottom left hand corner of the contest rules:
http://www.uwimages.org/docs/Rules2005.pdf It says: "In submitting
any entry
the owner grants Underwater Images the right to use such photos and
videos
for no more than 2 years".
For a photographer this means that he will be prevented from selling
exclusive use (a.k.a. licensing) of his photo for 2 years. This
onerous
restriction represents a significant loss of revenue for the
photographer.

This is an "amateur" photo competition. "Revenue" would indicate the
photographer being a professional, and therefore generally inelligible,
or at least should not be a major concern for the limited time stated.

IMO 2 years is significant. Others my vary.

Anyone selling "exclusive rights" to a photo should be getting the
photographer enough money for the photo that they would by definition
not be an amateur.

Untrue. Any photographer can sell exclusive rights to their photos.

Professionals strive toward consistency and shooting
for job assignment, not for winning a trip or a new housing.

Untrue again. Photographers enter contests for many reasons which *could*
including those you mentioined.

Underwater
Images has actually helped a few photographers make money on their
photos from the exposure and inquiries that have come from being posted
on the website as winners.

Not many contests require every entrant to grant exclusive rights to the
contest owner for 2 years (or any length of time) why do you?

Being
skeptical is a virtue and necessity in these times, but you've gone
beyond that in labeling something a "scam" without backing yourself up
with facts to prove it.

It is you and the manner in which you made your solicitation that I am
suspicious of, that was what influenced my judgement.

In America, there is a presumption of innocence
unless proven otherwise.

This is not a courtroom. You are not *forced* to put make a defence.

Therefore, an organization should not need to
prove or post in a public newsgroup every detail of what is mostly
available on the links listed in the original posting.

I don't think a NG is a proper venue for soliciting entry fees.

"ME", every post you've made here lessens your reputation as a mature
and serious person. If I were you, I'd hide behind that anonymity too
at this point.

My posts stand, anonymity is not a disqualification.
me

"uwphotographer" wrote in message
oups.com...
me wrote:
"uwphotographer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Yes, that scholarship is provided by the OHIO Council of Skin &
Scuba
Divers, Inc. an Ohio non-profit organization of dive clubs.
Underwater
Images is held in conjunction with Scubafest(www.scubafest.org), a
dive
show held in Ohio by the OCSSDI. Scholars don't necessarliy attend
school or have their career in Ohio though.

The bottom of this page http://www.uwimages.org/contributions.htm
says that
the scholarship will be awareded to "a person from Ohio". This proves
that
it is a *requirement* that the recipient be an Ohio resident, just as
I said
previously.

I answered yes,

I must have missed that answer. I see you fixed your page where it said "the
scholarship will be awarded to a person from Ohio". You needn't thank me for
pointing that out.

In general most OCSSDI
members are from Ohio, but don't necessarily have to be.

You give money but you don't know what the requirements for
eligibility are
or how much need (if any) the recipient of the scholarship has for
the
money???

No, However myself and the director of Underwater Images have both been
longtime members and former board members of the OCSSDI, and are
confident that the selection recommended by the sholarship committee to
the board will be a worthy person, whether finacially or academically.

Then at least someone knows what the scholarship requirements are even if
you don't.

They didn't post in a NG promoting a contest asking for entry fees,
you did.

I did not post asking for donations for the scholarship fund.

No you didn't and I didn't say you did. You did ask for entry fees for your
contest. You did say that after cost proceeds were donated to "worthy
causes" which sounds like an endorsement of your contest.

The
competition does charge entry fees to cover costs, and hopefully has
some left over to give to worthy causes. Even if nothing is left over
to donate, it's still non-profit with fees covering operating expenses.

Non profit does not mean that you don't get an income from the contest.

Bashing the Call for entries post may actually have a negative effect
on the amounts available for donation.

If those are *worthy* causes then I'm sorry. I don't think the promotion of
your contest in a NG is the best way to raise funds.

Many likely are acquaintances or relatives of OCSSDI members since
they
have
to be a member of the OCSSDI or a member dive club for eligibility.

So this scholarship is only for the benefit of Ohio residents who are
members of an Ohio dive club.

No, you don't have to be a member of a dive club or a resident of Ohio,
if you would read the application
http://www.ocssdi.org/docs/scholarship_version40.pdf.

Wrong again. Bottom right hand corner, applicant signs that thay are a
member of OCSSDI and dive club president signs that applicant is a member of
a "local dive club". I guess now you'll say that the dive club could be
anywhere but that makes the word "local" seem ludicrous.

Individuals can
join the OCSSDI as well. You don't have to be from Ohio to join.

I never said they had to be from Ohio to join. Your web site said that they
had to be an Ohio resident to get the scholarship (before you removed those
words).
I think it would be more appropriate to promote this contest locally rather
than in NG's that are international by nature especially considering that
the scholarship is intended to benefit mainly Ohio residents.
me

"uwphotographer" wrote in message
oups.com...
me wrote:
"uwphotographer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Yes, that scholarship is provided by the OHIO Council of Skin &
Scuba
Divers, Inc. an Ohio non-profit organization of dive clubs.
Underwater
Images is held in conjunction with Scubafest(www.scubafest.org), a
dive
show held in Ohio by the OCSSDI. Scholars don't necessarliy attend
school or have their career in Ohio though.

The bottom of this page http://www.uwimages.org/contributions.htm
says that
the scholarship will be awareded to "a person from Ohio". This proves
that
it is a *requirement* that the recipient be an Ohio resident, just as
I said
previously.

I answered yes,

I must have missed that answer. I see you fixed your page where it said "the
scholarship will be awarded to a person from Ohio". You needn't thank me for
pointing that out.

In general most OCSSDI
members are from Ohio, but don't necessarily have to be.

You give money but you don't know what the requirements for
eligibility are
or how much need (if any) the recipient of the scholarship has for
the
money???

No, However myself and the director of Underwater Images have both been
longtime members and former board members of the OCSSDI, and are
confident that the selection recommended by the sholarship committee to
the board will be a worthy person, whether finacially or academically.

Then at least someone knows what the scholarship requirements are even if
you don't.

They didn't post in a NG promoting a contest asking for entry fees,
you did.

I did not post asking for donations for the scholarship fund.

No you didn't and I didn't say you did. You did ask for entry fees for your
contest. You did say that after cost proceeds were donated to "worthy
causes" which sounds like an endorsement of your contest.

The
competition does charge entry fees to cover costs, and hopefully has
some left over to give to worthy causes. Even if nothing is left over
to donate, it's still non-profit with fees covering operating expenses.

Non profit does not mean that you don't get an income from the contest.

Bashing the Call for entries post may actually have a negative effect
on the amounts available for donation.

If those are *worthy* causes then I'm sorry. I don't think the promotion of
your contest in a NG is the best way to raise funds.

Many likely are acquaintances or relatives of OCSSDI members since
they
have
to be a member of the OCSSDI or a member dive club for eligibility.

So this scholarship is only for the benefit of Ohio residents who are
members of an Ohio dive club.

No, you don't have to be a member of a dive club or a resident of Ohio,
if you would read the application
http://www.ocssdi.org/docs/scholarship_version40.pdf.

Wrong again. Bottom right hand corner, applicant signs that thay are a
member of OCSSDI and dive club president signs that applicant is a member of
a "local dive club". I guess now you'll say that the dive club could be
anywhere but that makes the word "local" seem ludicrous.

Individuals can
join the OCSSDI as well. You don't have to be from Ohio to join.

I never said they had to be from Ohio to join. Your web site said that they
had to be an Ohio resident to get the scholarship (before you removed those
words).
I think it would be more appropriate to promote this contest locally rather
than in NG's that are international by nature especially considering that
the scholarship is intended to benefit mainly Ohio residents.
me