GARY FONG LOVES THE 20D !

"smb" wrote in message
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On Mon, 6 Aug 2007 18:50:46 -0700, "William Graham"
wrote:


"Peter A. Stavrakoglou" wrote in message
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"William Graham" wrote in message
...

"Peter A. Stavrakoglou" wrote in message
news:dpEti.3 Any study of these religions would show that there are
vast
differences
between them. Raising a child in a faith is no more brainwashing than
raising a child to obey the law and perform well in school. Guess
that's brainwashing too.

I disagree. Raising a child to believe in anything supernatural, whose
existence can't be proved, is brainwashing....The only difference
between
Christianity and radical Muslimism is a matter of degree. In the former
case, their belief, while ridiculous, is basically harmless, and is
able
to co-exist with the rest of society.....In the latter case, their
belief
is malevolent and totally unable to co-exist with anyone else....They
can't even co-exist with each other, since they believe you are doing
them a favor by killing them and sending them to Allah
prematurely.......

William, can you prove that God doesn't exist? No. You have a belief
that He doesn't, I have a belief that He does. Is it not brainwashing
to
raise a child to not believe in the existence of God? After all, it is
still a belief, whether God exists or He doesn't.



No, but I can't prove that there isn't a purple elephant headed this way,
to
spend the night on my back porch, either. That isn't the point. The point,
to me, is, even if one does exist, what good is he? - If he has done
nothing
for me or for anyone I know for their entire lives, then it doesn't matter
whether he exists or not. IOW, the question, like that of the purple
elephant, is moot. I can't spend my life bothering with moot questions
whose
answers are unfathomable and superfluous.
There may be a God. Perhaps the universe demands such an entity. - But
other than that possibility, so what? If he never shows up to give anyone
any help, or offers no guidance, nor even reveals himself to anyone in any
way, then what does it matter whether I believe in him or not?

It's kind of like the people who are trying to create life in a
laboratory,
to prove that it could have come into being here on earth by itself. They
are working with their environmental chambers, set to duplicate the
conditions here on earth 3 billion years ago. Then somebody comes to their
front door and shouts in: Hey, you guys, life probably came here from some
other planet on a meteor....So, you are wasting your time!
Would/should that deter them? - Of course not. It doesn't matter where
it came from. The whole idea is to create it out of the elements we know,
and conditions that we think it started in. If it came from somewhere
else,
then how did it start there?
Well, adding a God to the mix is just like adding another planet to
their mix. It is a superfluous step that has no meaning, and no
consequence.
If we can't discover a reasonable creation without God, then we have
failed
in our scientific goals....Adding a God in between nothingness and
something
doesn't do anything but complicate matters....Scientists don't like
complexity...They want simplicity. Gods, in all of their various forms are
just the introduction of unnecessary complexity into a problem that is
complex enough as it is.....It/He is abhorrent to a mathematician such as
myself. I personally believe that there is a probability equation that
could
be written that yields some finite probability greater than zero that a
universe could spring from nothingness into existence. Someday, (I hope)
some mathematician will find it and show it to the world. If that equation
contains a factor that can be identified as God, then so be it. But until
it
does, I see no reason to believe that it will, or to force such an issue
into my calculations.....My old envelopes are full of wasted symbols as it
is......



I can imagine your questions are very similar to the ones that the
Greeks asked the Apostle Paul. Your idea of gods is a valid one, in
that man has created gods for everything in an attempt to explain the
world. The Greeks in Athens even had a shrine to an Unknown God, to
cover all their bases. Paul used that to great effect in showing
them that what they considered the "Unknown God" was indeed the God of
the universe. The bottom line was then and is now that nobody can
just think their way to God, even though the evidence for Him is all
around us. Jesus used an example of the wind -- we know where it
comes from and where it is going, and we experience the effects, but
nobody can see it.

You've said that you cannot accept the supernatural. But what if the
supernatural is actually a part of the order of things that just can't
be explained by "natural" means? To those who grew up with Newtonian
physics, the concepts of the theory of relativity seem supernatural.
There are mathematical models to describe it, but the very idea defies
common sense.


Steve

No. Relativity does not defy common sense....Relativity is common
sense.....Now, Quantum electrodynamics.....That defies common sense!

"smb" wrote in message
news

Here's a slight curve ball for you: Christianity in its essence is
not a religion, although there are many religions that have sprung up
over the years to express it.


Steve

But you can only say that because you believe the myth.....If someone (such
as I) doesn't believe the myth, then he (I) calls it a, "religion." IOW, it
is defined according to the observer, and in accordance with the belief of
the observer.

"smb" wrote in message
...
I believe the universe did, "appear out of nothing". It is the only
answer
to our existence.....It must be mathematically possible for a whole
universe
to appear out of nothing......And if it could, (and it obviously did)
then
it may be able to disappear, too....Think about that, for awhile......:^)


What you just said is an example of faith, not reason -- Faith based
on assumptions you have made based on your observations, but faith
nontheless.

Yep, unlike religion which is faith based on nothing at all.

IMO all such speculations are pointless. A true scientist simply accepts
that any speculative conjecture is merely a working hypothesis, and awaits
further data.

MrT.

"smb" wrote in message
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Could be because there are no other gods.

Agreed, except for the word "other" :-)

MrT.

"smb" wrote in message
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So, MrT, how do you categorize yourself? A socialist? Communist?
Marxist? Or are you just a general anti-capitalist who hasn't yet
decided on a workable alternative?

Of course there are workable alternatives, they just may not suit you!
And why is it necessary to categorise everything to a simple level just so
simple people can understand anyway?

MrT.

"smb" wrote in message
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OK, then you believe that you shouldn't shoot back at someone unless
you get killed first?

And you believe you should shoot every unarmed person you don't agree with?
Unfortunately others are starting to think the same.


MrT.

"smb" wrote in message
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Once again we see the liberal/leftie response to things they can't or
won't respond to...

Yes, the right wing fascists have their stock response to everything.
That it is all just bull **** is immaterial to them.
(Facts, they don't need no stinking facts :-)

And they wonder why they keep losing the big
elections?

Strange, it seems the Dems are doing better than the Republicans over there
at the moment, and the centre/right opposition is doing much better in the
polls over here than the far right government.

Will you change your tune after the next elections, of course not, no matter
what the outcomes! :-)

MrT.

"Alan Browne" wrote in message
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smb wrote:

But what if there really is a God, and that God told you
exactly who He is?

Then we'd crack open some Cubans and single malt and sort out a few
things.

In the meantime, if there is a God, something I do not believe, I doubt he
would have anything to do with any of the major religions on earth with
the possible exception of Buddhism (if one got rid of some of the
"vehicles" in it). There are likely some unseen religions that have got
it "just right" but they can't survive one-true-faith marketing of the big
leagues.

My faith, thank you for recognizing there is some, lies regrettably in my
fellow man. Who in turn has disappointed me too often to count. Then I
discovered the one true path: I can only not disappoint myself. Counting
on anyone else is a vehicle for let down. This has also so led me to shed
a few parasites in my past and made my life quite a bit easier.

So, now I do have faith renewed in my fellow man, I just don't depend on
the f-----s.

And this I know: Whether the one True
Light
Kindle to love, or wrath consume me
quite,
One glimpse of it within the tavern
caught
Better than in the temple lost outright.

"smb" wrote in message
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Terrorism started the war we are engaged in today.

Which Iraqi terrorist act was that?

We were attacked first.

By Iraq? When was that?

Even your right wing press no longer believes that load of dog-****!

Again, NOBODY ever said that Iraq attacked the US.

Yes you just did, or were you just aimlessly typing jibberish as usual?

That was never a
reason given for getting rid of Saddam. It was his constant refusal
to obey a decade's worth of U.N. mandates.

Why mention the UN when they said war was *NOT* justified.
The US and allies have *NO* UN backing, so are also thumbing their noses.
Who should invade the USA for *their* breach of UN mandates I wonder? :-)

Shame it was the USA that put him in power, provided him with weapons,
trained his army, and looked the other way when he was killing Kurds.
Now they spend $Billions getting rid of him, and kill tens of thousands more
civilians in the process.
Only time will tell whether the next US selection turns out to be any better
than their last.

MrT.

"smb" wrote in message
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You are truly ignoring the big picture, and you have never provided an
alternative to anything other than those worn-out anti-American rants.

You have never provided anything other than those worn-out pro war rants you
mean?

MrT.