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#1
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Canon's 50mp DSLR. Higher res than D810, but more moire andnoise
On 8/05/2015 5:49 p.m., android wrote:
In article , RichA wrote: IMO, the resolution is noticeable but not huge because the linear resolution increase isn't that great. It sounds like a lot when you say, "50mp compared to 36" but that's not how resolution works. If you want to double resolution, you need to quadruple pixel count. It does show more moire than the D810, I don't know why. Noise is perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 stop worse than the Nikon. Because file sizes are dependent on area, unlike resolution, file sizes are considerably larger. I don't think that the moire is "worse", just different because of sampling frequency on the patterns on the test target. Bitching about whether an AA filter is still needed or not (even at only 36mp) should be made after adding the D800 to the comparison tool. Moire appears in the D800 image in exactly the same place as with the D800E and D810, it's certainly not eliminated by the AA filter, only reduced. I'd expect to see the same difference between the two 5DS models when DPReview add the 5Ds to the compare tool. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/imag...&attr13_0=cano n_eos5dsr&attr13_1=nikon_d810&attr13_2=pentax_645z &attr13_3=phaseone_iq180&att r15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&a ttr16_0=200&attr16_1=200&att r16_2=200&attr16_3=35&normalization=full&widget=1& x=-0.5172853599968508&y=0.26 069086651053863 If you check the noise in DxO you'll se that high ISO noise is lover in 1Dx than in the D810. I also downloaded the ISO 6400 files for the 5Dsr and 1Dx from Imaging Resource and found that noise vise, at the same imagesize they there not to tell apart... Click on the measurements tab: http://tinyurl.com/lng7t2c http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compa...810-versus-Nik on-D4-versus-Canon-EOS-1Dx___963_767_753 Really? That link to DXO shows very little difference at all in high ISO noise between any of those 3 cameras. The "score" - Sports (Low Light ISO) are 2786, 2853, and 2956. If you were able to set your camera to ISO 2786 and 2956 and compare the result (image noise) do you think you'd be able to pick the difference? Even if you could, then what practical difference would it make anyway? File size might make a practical difference, so might resolution. |
#2
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Canon's 50mp DSLR. Higher res than D810, but more moire and noise
In article , Me
wrote: On 8/05/2015 5:49 p.m., android wrote: In article , RichA wrote: IMO, the resolution is noticeable but not huge because the linear resolution increase isn't that great. It sounds like a lot when you say, "50mp compared to 36" but that's not how resolution works. If you want to double resolution, you need to quadruple pixel count. It does show more moire than the D810, I don't know why. Noise is perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 stop worse than the Nikon. Because file sizes are dependent on area, unlike resolution, file sizes are considerably larger. I don't think that the moire is "worse", just different because of sampling frequency on the patterns on the test target. Bitching about whether an AA filter is still needed or not (even at only 36mp) should be made after adding the D800 to the comparison tool. Moire appears in the D800 image in exactly the same place as with the D800E and D810, it's certainly not eliminated by the AA filter, only reduced. I'd expect to see the same difference between the two 5DS models when DPReview add the 5Ds to the compare tool. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/imag...ght&attr13_0=c ano n_eos5dsr&attr13_1=nikon_d810&attr13_2=pentax_645z &attr13_3=phaseone_iq180& att r15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&a ttr16_0=200&attr16_1=200& att r16_2=200&attr16_3=35&normalization=full&widget=1& x=-0.5172853599968508&y=0 .26 069086651053863 If you check the noise in DxO you'll se that high ISO noise is lover in 1Dx than in the D810. I also downloaded the ISO 6400 files for the 5Dsr and 1Dx from Imaging Resource and found that noise vise, at the same imagesize they there not to tell apart... Click on the measurements tab: http://tinyurl.com/lng7t2c http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compa...810-versus-Nik on-D4-versus-Canon-EOS-1Dx___963_767_753 Really? That link to DXO shows very little difference at all in high ISO noise between any of those 3 cameras. That's the point. Evaluation of early 5Dsr files indicates that it will produce better pictures at ISO 6400 than the 1Dx and D4. At the same image seize. The "score" - Sports (Low Light ISO) are 2786, 2853, and 2956. If you were able to set your camera to ISO 2786 and 2956 and compare the result (image noise) do you think you'd be able to pick the difference? I don't care about DxO "scores". You want scores? Go to senscore.org! scores without supported and structured data is pointless. I care about the DxO measurements and makes my own conclusions. Even if you could, then what practical difference would it make anyway? File size might make a practical difference, so might resolution. Se the above... -- teleportation kills |
#3
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Canon's 50mp DSLR. Higher res than D810, but more moire andnoise
On 10/05/2015 6:21 p.m., android wrote:
In article , Me wrote: On 8/05/2015 5:49 p.m., android wrote: In article , RichA wrote: IMO, the resolution is noticeable but not huge because the linear resolution increase isn't that great. It sounds like a lot when you say, "50mp compared to 36" but that's not how resolution works. If you want to double resolution, you need to quadruple pixel count. It does show more moire than the D810, I don't know why. Noise is perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 stop worse than the Nikon. Because file sizes are dependent on area, unlike resolution, file sizes are considerably larger. I don't think that the moire is "worse", just different because of sampling frequency on the patterns on the test target. Bitching about whether an AA filter is still needed or not (even at only 36mp) should be made after adding the D800 to the comparison tool. Moire appears in the D800 image in exactly the same place as with the D800E and D810, it's certainly not eliminated by the AA filter, only reduced. I'd expect to see the same difference between the two 5DS models when DPReview add the 5Ds to the compare tool. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/imag...ght&attr13_0=c ano n_eos5dsr&attr13_1=nikon_d810&attr13_2=pentax_645z &attr13_3=phaseone_iq180& att r15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&a ttr16_0=200&attr16_1=200& att r16_2=200&attr16_3=35&normalization=full&widget=1& x=-0.5172853599968508&y=0 .26 069086651053863 If you check the noise in DxO you'll se that high ISO noise is lover in 1Dx than in the D810. I also downloaded the ISO 6400 files for the 5Dsr and 1Dx from Imaging Resource and found that noise vise, at the same imagesize they there not to tell apart... Click on the measurements tab: http://tinyurl.com/lng7t2c http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compa...810-versus-Nik on-D4-versus-Canon-EOS-1Dx___963_767_753 Really? That link to DXO shows very little difference at all in high ISO noise between any of those 3 cameras. That's the point. Evaluation of early 5Dsr files indicates that it will produce better pictures at ISO 6400 than the 1Dx and D4. At the same image seize. The "score" - Sports (Low Light ISO) are 2786, 2853, and 2956. If you were able to set your camera to ISO 2786 and 2956 and compare the result (image noise) do you think you'd be able to pick the difference? I don't care about DxO "scores". You want scores? Go to senscore.org! scores without supported and structured data is pointless. I care about the DxO measurements and makes my own conclusions. Even if you could, then what practical difference would it make anyway? File size might make a practical difference, so might resolution. Se the above... I don't think we are arguing about anything. Raw data for a selection of current/recent full frame cameras here, based on a standard output size, charted as dynamic range at a standard signal:noise ratio: http://i.imgur.com/BDKPNu2.png Above ISO 1600 and above, they're basically all the same. No surprise there, they all have similar quantum efficiency - so photon noise is about the same. Below ISO 1600, then things change. Wavy lines are for some cameras which apply gain after sensor readout for intermediate ISO settings. I don't think there's any "spin" applied to that data - as used in the weighted scores by DXO. Senscore is a bit nutty. Resolution is weighted to contribute 20% of the final score - so a sensor with only 1 pixel could score quite well - yet the "other half" of their site - "lenscore" is obsessed with resolution performance of lenses. |
#4
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Canon's 50mp DSLR. Higher res than D810, but more moire andnoise
On 9/05/2015 6:15 p.m., RichA wrote:
The lowest noise camera ever was the Nikon D3s. The D4 and NO Canon ever matched it. Not correct on both counts. |
#5
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Canon's 50mp DSLR. Higher res than D810, but more moire and noise
In article , Me
wrote: On 10/05/2015 6:21 p.m., android wrote: In article , Me wrote: On 8/05/2015 5:49 p.m., android wrote: In article , RichA wrote: IMO, the resolution is noticeable but not huge because the linear resolution increase isn't that great. It sounds like a lot when you say, "50mp compared to 36" but that's not how resolution works. If you want to double resolution, you need to quadruple pixel count. It does show more moire than the D810, I don't know why. Noise is perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 stop worse than the Nikon. Because file sizes are dependent on area, unlike resolution, file sizes are considerably larger. I don't think that the moire is "worse", just different because of sampling frequency on the patterns on the test target. Bitching about whether an AA filter is still needed or not (even at only 36mp) should be made after adding the D800 to the comparison tool. Moire appears in the D800 image in exactly the same place as with the D800E and D810, it's certainly not eliminated by the AA filter, only reduced. I'd expect to see the same difference between the two 5DS models when DPReview add the 5Ds to the compare tool. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/imag...light&attr13_0 =c ano n_eos5dsr&attr13_1=nikon_d810&attr13_2=pentax_645z &attr13_3=phaseone_iq18 0& att r15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&a ttr16_0=200&attr16_1=20 0& att r16_2=200&attr16_3=35&normalization=full&widget=1& x=-0.5172853599968508&y =0 .26 069086651053863 If you check the noise in DxO you'll se that high ISO noise is lover in 1Dx than in the D810. I also downloaded the ISO 6400 files for the 5Dsr and 1Dx from Imaging Resource and found that noise vise, at the same imagesize they there not to tell apart... Click on the measurements tab: http://tinyurl.com/lng7t2c http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compa...810-versus-Nik on-D4-versus-Canon-EOS-1Dx___963_767_753 Really? That link to DXO shows very little difference at all in high ISO noise between any of those 3 cameras. That's the point. Evaluation of early 5Dsr files indicates that it will produce better pictures at ISO 6400 than the 1Dx and D4. At the same image seize. The "score" - Sports (Low Light ISO) are 2786, 2853, and 2956. If you were able to set your camera to ISO 2786 and 2956 and compare the result (image noise) do you think you'd be able to pick the difference? I don't care about DxO "scores". You want scores? Go to senscore.org! scores without supported and structured data is pointless. I care about the DxO measurements and makes my own conclusions. Even if you could, then what practical difference would it make anyway? File size might make a practical difference, so might resolution. Se the above... I don't think we are arguing about anything. Raw data for a selection of current/recent full frame cameras here, based on a standard output size, charted as dynamic range at a standard signal:noise ratio: http://i.imgur.com/BDKPNu2.png Above ISO 1600 and above, they're basically all the same. No surprise there, they all have similar quantum efficiency - so photon noise is about the same. Below ISO 1600, then things change. Wavy lines are for some cameras which apply gain after sensor readout for intermediate ISO settings. I think that your conclusion that some has analog interference between the sensor and is reasonable and correct. I also think that the "wavyness" are to be attributed to a cruder correction than the less wavy. That wavyness could, seriously lead to "analog" posterisation. I don't know the source for your data or which cameras that are measured, the above comment was made in good faith. I don't think there's any "spin" applied to that data - as used in the weighted scores by DXO. I think that there is a choice on the part of DxO on how to weight data that makes their data more interesting to me than their score. Senscore is a bit nutty. You don't say! Resolution is weighted to contribute 20% of the final score - so a sensor with only 1 pixel could score quite well - yet the "other half" of their site - "lenscore" is obsessed with resolution performance of lenses. -- teleportation kills |
#6
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Canon's 50mp DSLR. Higher res than D810, but more moire andnoise
On 11/05/2015 6:41 p.m., RichA wrote:
On Sunday, 10 May 2015 08:04:01 UTC-4, Me wrote: On 9/05/2015 6:15 p.m., RichA wrote: The lowest noise camera ever was the Nikon D3s. The D4 and NO Canon ever matched it. Not correct on both counts. Which Canon matched it? Please, no "take a 22mp image and downsize it" stuff, did any 12-16mp Canon ever match it? 1Dx matches it - very closely. Nikon's D6*0/750/8*0 exceed it for low ISO dynamic range. |
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