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[Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 1st 08, 11:03 PM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge


Some claim that full frame sensors like the Sony a900's 24.6 Mpix or the
Canon 21 Mpix cameras cannot out-resolve the Nikon 12 Mpix full frame
cameras.

I therefore throw out this friendly challenge with results to be posted
(full frame raw images) in two weeks time.

Send me an e-meil at the address above (less the "Freelunch") if you're
"in" and your gear complies to the requirement below.

PROPOSED RULES
--------------
Here are some rules, you may propose changes, naturally, in reply to
this post.

Let's try to sort out rule changes by this Friday (2008.12.05).

I will not reply to anything other than serious proposed rule changes or
adjustments which are within the grasp of the average shooters in these
NG's and which enable participation with a minimum of fuss, but that
have reasonably controllable technical requirements/minimums.

1. CAMERA and LENS

a) Each uses his sharpest 50mm or longer lens at its sharpest aperture.
You may borrow, beg, etc. a lens if you want/need to.

b) Full frame 35mm cameras only (eg: [24 x 36mm] +/- 1 mm).

Film is permitted, nay, encouraged. Scanning is the
responsibility of the shooter. (If you're late on the deadline, I'll
still post the images, of course). Submit TIF's.

c) Camera set to its best ISO for image quality (per the manufacturer).

2. TARGET

Subject to be a specific "The Economist" - "Positions" advertisement
(tend to have fine print) to be mutually agreed from the 6 Dec 2008 edition.

A ruler (cm or inches) must be part of the image but will not,
itself, be part of the evaluation.

Shooter to make sure the page is mounted as flat as reasonably
possible and normal to the lens axis. Eg: tape or clamp the page to a
piece of plywood.

3. LIGHTING

Tungsten lighting at a distance commensurate with exposure at chosen
aperture, ISO and speed. Assume two lights, one on each side, level
with the work and approximately 45 degrees to the lens axis.
I propose we agree on 100W for each light.

(I have no objection if folks prefer strobe lighting, as long as
everyone agrees on it and can do it. I would prefer strobe actually but
propose tungsten if that is more accessible.)

4. DISTANCE

Distance to be _1.25 inches per mm of focal length_ from the subject
to the sensor plane. (To allow a wide range of normal to telephot
lenses but a reasonable scaling for comparison.) If you know the 'true'
FL v. the marketed FL, then please use the true value.

(This constant to be refined but something on that order. Once agreed,
all shooters must use the same multiplier. A ruler (in cm or inches)
must be part of the photo(s)).

5. SUPPORT

Tripod, release cable and MLU are assumed.

6. RESULT FILES

Original, unchanged, raw files (no sharpening that way) to be sent
to me via YouSendIt.com. I will post these for access by all participants.

7. OTHER FILES

100% crops (sharpened and not) to be posted as well as selected by
the shooters.

8. EVALUATION

Evaluation: center and corner sharpness. Discussion of results in
rec.photo.equipment.slr-systems.

Does anyone have a resolution tool on their computer?

9. DEADLINE

Deadline: 2008.12.14 - Sunday midnight, Los Angeles Time.

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.
  #2  
Old December 1st 08, 11:19 PM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
trouble
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 36
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

Its not the pictures it's the physics.

  #3  
Old December 2nd 08, 05:50 AM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Alan Justice
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge



"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...

Some claim that full frame sensors like the Sony a900's 24.6 Mpix or the
Canon 21 Mpix cameras cannot out-resolve the Nikon 12 Mpix full frame
cameras.

I therefore throw out this friendly challenge with results to be posted
(full frame raw images) in two weeks time.

Send me an e-meil at the address above (less the "Freelunch") if you're
"in" and your gear complies to the requirement below.

PROPOSED RULES
--------------
Here are some rules, you may propose changes, naturally, in reply to
this post.

Let's try to sort out rule changes by this Friday (2008.12.05).

I will not reply to anything other than serious proposed rule changes or
adjustments which are within the grasp of the average shooters in these
NG's and which enable participation with a minimum of fuss, but that
have reasonably controllable technical requirements/minimums.

1. CAMERA and LENS

a) Each uses his sharpest 50mm or longer lens at its sharpest aperture.
You may borrow, beg, etc. a lens if you want/need to.

b) Full frame 35mm cameras only (eg: [24 x 36mm] +/- 1 mm).

Film is permitted, nay, encouraged. Scanning is the
responsibility of the shooter. (If you're late on the deadline, I'll
still post the images, of course). Submit TIF's.

c) Camera set to its best ISO for image quality (per the

manufacturer).

2. TARGET

Subject to be a specific "The Economist" - "Positions" advertisement
(tend to have fine print) to be mutually agreed from the 6 Dec 2008

edition.

A ruler (cm or inches) must be part of the image but will not,
itself, be part of the evaluation.

Shooter to make sure the page is mounted as flat as reasonably
possible and normal to the lens axis. Eg: tape or clamp the page to a
piece of plywood.

3. LIGHTING

Tungsten lighting at a distance commensurate with exposure at chosen
aperture, ISO and speed. Assume two lights, one on each side, level
with the work and approximately 45 degrees to the lens axis.
I propose we agree on 100W for each light.

(I have no objection if folks prefer strobe lighting, as long as
everyone agrees on it and can do it. I would prefer strobe actually but
propose tungsten if that is more accessible.)

4. DISTANCE

Distance to be _1.25 inches per mm of focal length_ from the subject
to the sensor plane. (To allow a wide range of normal to telephot
lenses but a reasonable scaling for comparison.) If you know the 'true'
FL v. the marketed FL, then please use the true value.

(This constant to be refined but something on that order. Once agreed,
all shooters must use the same multiplier. A ruler (in cm or inches)
must be part of the photo(s)).

5. SUPPORT

Tripod, release cable and MLU are assumed.

6. RESULT FILES

Original, unchanged, raw files (no sharpening that way) to be sent
to me via YouSendIt.com. I will post these for access by all

participants.

7. OTHER FILES

100% crops (sharpened and not) to be posted as well as selected by
the shooters.

8. EVALUATION

Evaluation: center and corner sharpness. Discussion of results in
rec.photo.equipment.slr-systems.

Does anyone have a resolution tool on their computer?

9. DEADLINE

Deadline: 2008.12.14 - Sunday midnight, Los Angeles Time.

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.


Item #7: What's "100% crops"? Either uncropped or nonexistent. May I
suggest an alternative to requiring huge files to be posted? Take the
picture as proposed, size to a large size (e.g., 20x30"), then crop a
section of about 6x9" (to fit on the screen). No need to evaluate the
entire image.
--
Alan Justice


  #4  
Old December 2nd 08, 08:25 AM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Mark Thomas
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 835
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

Alan Justice wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
Some claim that full frame sensors like the Sony a900's 24.6 Mpix or the
Canon 21 Mpix cameras cannot out-resolve the Nikon 12 Mpix full frame
cameras.

I therefore throw out this friendly challenge with results to be posted
(full frame raw images) in two weeks time.

Send me an e-meil at the address above (less the "Freelunch") if you're
"in" and your gear complies to the requirement below.

PROPOSED RULES
--------------
Here are some rules, you may propose changes, naturally, in reply to
this post.

Let's try to sort out rule changes by this Friday (2008.12.05).

I will not reply to anything other than serious proposed rule changes or
adjustments which are within the grasp of the average shooters in these
NG's and which enable participation with a minimum of fuss, but that
have reasonably controllable technical requirements/minimums.

1. CAMERA and LENS

a) Each uses his sharpest 50mm or longer lens at its sharpest aperture.
You may borrow, beg, etc. a lens if you want/need to.

b) Full frame 35mm cameras only (eg: [24 x 36mm] +/- 1 mm).

Film is permitted, nay, encouraged. Scanning is the
responsibility of the shooter. (If you're late on the deadline, I'll
still post the images, of course). Submit TIF's.

c) Camera set to its best ISO for image quality (per the

manufacturer).
2. TARGET

Subject to be a specific "The Economist" - "Positions" advertisement
(tend to have fine print) to be mutually agreed from the 6 Dec 2008

edition.
A ruler (cm or inches) must be part of the image but will not,
itself, be part of the evaluation.

Shooter to make sure the page is mounted as flat as reasonably
possible and normal to the lens axis. Eg: tape or clamp the page to a
piece of plywood.

3. LIGHTING

Tungsten lighting at a distance commensurate with exposure at chosen
aperture, ISO and speed. Assume two lights, one on each side, level
with the work and approximately 45 degrees to the lens axis.
I propose we agree on 100W for each light.

(I have no objection if folks prefer strobe lighting, as long as
everyone agrees on it and can do it. I would prefer strobe actually but
propose tungsten if that is more accessible.)

4. DISTANCE

Distance to be _1.25 inches per mm of focal length_ from the subject
to the sensor plane. (To allow a wide range of normal to telephot
lenses but a reasonable scaling for comparison.) If you know the 'true'
FL v. the marketed FL, then please use the true value.

(This constant to be refined but something on that order. Once agreed,
all shooters must use the same multiplier. A ruler (in cm or inches)
must be part of the photo(s)).

5. SUPPORT

Tripod, release cable and MLU are assumed.

6. RESULT FILES

Original, unchanged, raw files (no sharpening that way) to be sent
to me via YouSendIt.com. I will post these for access by all

participants.
7. OTHER FILES

100% crops (sharpened and not) to be posted as well as selected by
the shooters.

8. EVALUATION

Evaluation: center and corner sharpness. Discussion of results in
rec.photo.equipment.slr-systems.

Does anyone have a resolution tool on their computer?

9. DEADLINE

Deadline: 2008.12.14 - Sunday midnight, Los Angeles Time.

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.


Item #7: What's "100% crops"? Either uncropped or nonexistent. May I
suggest an alternative to requiring huge files to be posted? Take the
picture as proposed, size to a large size (e.g., 20x30"), then crop a
section of about 6x9" (to fit on the screen). No need to evaluate the
entire image.


That's exactly what 100% crop means.

'100%' means the view should be 'actual pixel' size, ie not resampled.

'crop' means that rather than post the whole image and waste bandwidth,
just post a small .. crop.
  #5  
Old December 2nd 08, 08:37 AM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Mr.T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 889
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge


"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
snip

Of course photographing a newspaper will tell nought about color
problems/differences anyway. There's more to photo quality than just
resolution.
And it seems to me the only advantage of the Nikon (lower noise at higher
ISO) is not to be tested, so what's the point?
A proper optical bench test is more definitive than shooting a newspaper.
But if you need better than any of those camera's you should probably be
using MF or large format anyway.

MrT.


  #6  
Old December 2nd 08, 09:08 AM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
David J Taylor[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 677
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

Alan Browne wrote:
[]
8. EVALUATION

Evaluation: center and corner sharpness. Discussion of results in
rec.photo.equipment.slr-systems.


Excuse me, but if you are evaluating digital SLR systems, please discuss
the results in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems!

Thanks,
David

  #7  
Old December 2nd 08, 06:56 PM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Advocate54
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge


"David J Taylor"
wrote in
message .. .
Alan Browne wrote:
[]
8. EVALUATION

Evaluation: center and corner sharpness. Discussion of results in
rec.photo.equipment.slr-systems.


Excuse me, but if you are evaluating digital SLR systems, please discuss
the results in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems!

Oh, ain't that rich...some never give up : )


  #8  
Old December 3rd 08, 12:34 AM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

Mr.T wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
... snip

Of course photographing a newspaper will tell nought about color
problems/differences anyway. There's more to photo quality than just
resolution. And it seems to me the only advantage of the Nikon (lower
noise at higher ISO) is not to be tested, so what's the point? A
proper optical bench test is more definitive than shooting a
newspaper. But if you need better than any of those camera's you
should probably be using MF or large format anyway.


I have nothing against full testing, but for simplicity's sake, let's
begin with addressing resolution as that replies to those who claim that
there is no discernible resolution beyond 12 Mpix.

Resolution test charts, by the way, are black on white.

The purpose of this challenge is to see if general users like us can
discern that detail. The use of a fine print magazine advert at a good
distance is very useful for resolution testing as it presents contrast
lines at many angles (font shape).

I'd be happier to use USAF res charts, but they are expensive for their
limited use. The Economist is a few bucks at your local newsstand.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.
  #9  
Old December 3rd 08, 12:37 AM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

Alan Justice wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message


100% crops (sharpened and not) to be posted as well as selected by
the shooters.


Item #7: What's "100% crops"? Either uncropped or nonexistent. May
I suggest an alternative to requiring huge files to be posted? Take
the picture as proposed, size to a large size (e.g., 20x30"), then
crop a section of about 6x9" (to fit on the screen). No need to
evaluate the entire image.


100% crop (a very common term used in these NG's) means a section
cropped for detail examination and not resized further. eg: a 400 x 400
pixel area from the original without re-sizing of the original or the crop.

The notion of sending in the raw files is to assure everyone that the
original is available for examination.

Speaking of cropping, you could have cropped your post for readability
on your issue without re-quoting the entire post.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.
  #10  
Old December 3rd 08, 12:38 AM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

David J Taylor wrote:
Alan Browne wrote:
[]
8. EVALUATION

Evaluation: center and corner sharpness. Discussion of results in
rec.photo.equipment.slr-systems.


Excuse me, but if you are evaluating digital SLR systems, please discuss
the results in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems!


Film shooters are just as welcome to participate.

See rule 1 b) para 2.


--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.

 




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