2 questions about digital cameras

Ron Hunter wrote:

The bottom line is still the availability of AA batteries. Yesterday,
my wife's camera showed symptoms of low battery (it turned out to have
gotten wet), and since we had taken about all the pictures we wanted, I
did nothing about it, but I COULD have just driven 2 blocks and bought
AA alkaline batteries. With lithium ion batteries, this would not have
been an option.

The camera with Li-Ion batteries would have been far, far less likely to
have shown symptoms of low battery, real or imagined. That's the real
bottom line.

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:05:18 -0800, SMS wrote:

-hh wrote:

Another factor in their favor is that even superior quality
(2000+mAhr) NiMH AA's are a good bang for the buck. I paid $15 for a
pack of 4 last month at B&H, whereas when one looks at the proprietary
camera batteries, you're often in for a royal soaking. For example,
the ~800mAh CGR-S006 battery for the Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ28 is $50
for the OEM and $28 for the 3rd party aftermarket version. And the
1400mAh BP-511A for Canon DSLR's is effectively no better: $50 and
$25. When you compare by actual power stored, the AAs are around
1/10th the cost per mAh.

Wrong, on many counts.

First, the after-market CGA-S006 is $20
("http://sterlingtek.com/pacgcgcgforp.html") while the aftermarket BP511
is $12 ("http://sterlingtek.com/caeodicaba.html"). It's not really fair
to look at one of the most expensive places to buy after-market
batteries when you make your calculations (though even at the B&H prices
you're incorrect). Note that the Sterlingtek prices are by no means the
lowest available, but I didn't want to use some of the prices of eBay
vendors of unknown quality.

Second, power is not measured in mAH, it's measured in W (or mW).


Dear Moron Troll,

If you are going to be a battery troll, camera troll, and photography troll, at
least get the basics of electricity worked out in that pea-brain of yours.

For all practical purposes milliamp-hour and milliwatt-hour are synonymous when
talking about battery capacities.

http://www.batteryhippo.com/pages/Ca...onversion.html


more SMS-troll misinformation snipped



For a good web site on this topic, type "SMS is a TROLL" into the Google
search box then click on "I'm Feeling Lucky". It's the premier web site
for misinformation on camera batteries and their trade-offs.

Yes, we are well aware of how you manipulated searches to your page of complete
misinformation by spamming the hell out of every newsgroup and forum in
existence with your perpetual nonsense. Aren't you proud.

This is why nobody with the least bit of intellect should ever click on the
first 1-3 pages of links that show up on a Google search. "Popular" doesn't make
it true. Quite the contrary. Those pages only remain popular because lazy idiots
don't know any better. The more people that click on the first links the more it
stays there and the more popular it becomes. Then they all start to believe the
first pages of "popular-link" rubbish as fact.

It's the first hit on Google, it MUST be true!! No?

No. Quite the opposite.

In fact, if you want to find out what is the popular myth created by ignorant
lazy people who only believe what they are told to believe, but not the real
facts, you can be quite certain that any of the first pages of Google hits are
perfect examples of that. Intelligent people know, all too well, to instantly
bypass the first pages of Google links presented. Those links were caused to be
there by the actions of frightfully-lazy misinformed minds.

The net, and Google in particular, is a wonderful way to popularize stupidity
and misinformation. One of the sad facts of how the net is promoting ignorance
and stupidity throughout humanity at a blinding speed. Fools don't realize that
"popular" doesn't equate to "truth". You, SMS, are an excellent example of that
sad fact of the internet.

You are nothing less than a perfect example of popularized misinformation and
stupidity. Such is the harm that any brain-dead troll on the internet can cause
to the advancement of knowledge.

I can foresee a new fad starting, "Authors of popularized Google links of
stupidity and misinformation are now being sent mail-bombs to rid humanity of
its ignorance." If that started to happen then maybe misinformed trolls like SMS
wouldn't be so quick to get their name in lights by trying to popularize their
ignorance throughout the internet. Why, they might even stop to think first for
once in their sad lives.

Anyone got a nice package that they care to send to this SMS fool for Christmas?
It will be a wonderful present for us all--one more step forward in knowledge
and truth for humanity by ridding the world of Google-popularized ignorance and
stupidity.

I'm not suggesting that this *should* be done, only that someday people will
finally resort to this as the only possible solution to put an end to
net-perpetuated ignorance and stupidity.

SMS is hellbent on becoming well known, maybe it'll happen in a way that he
didn't realize by becoming the first example. Reality has a strange way of
making people's wishes come true, but not usually as they had hoped for nor
intended.

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 05:25:29 -0800 (PST), -hh
wrote:

John Navas wrote:
-hh wrote:
John Navas wrote:
True, but almost as easy to use an external adapter that powers the
device from external AA batteries. I used to have one for my cell
phone. I've considered getting one for my cameras, but went with spare
batteries instead.

That's another possibility, and while it does solve the "oops, forgot
to charge my batteries", it doesn't generally relieve the problems of
"how much stuff" is being carried.

The batteries are too small and light for that to be an issue. My case
couldn't really be any smaller even without them.

'Small and Light' depends on how one is counting.

For example, if I'm just going out for the day, the physical battery
charger is left at home, so its size/weight doesn't matter.

But when one is packing for a trip (one long enough to need more than
just one+spare power), then the chargers have to get packed, and the
more proliferation of battery types one has, the more chargers (and
spare batteries) we end up with. If we then are going someplace
remote enough that you want to reduce risks by having redundancy in
chargers (not just _A_ spare battery), then this logistical tail
becomes even bigger.

And with the advent of modern electronics, everything invariably has a
battery to consider how to support:

Cellphone
iPod & Noise-cancel headset for iPod
Alarm clock(s)
Flashlight(s)
Camera(s)
Camera strobe(s)
Arctic Butterfly
Digital Wallet(s)
Stabilized Binoculars
GPS
PVS-14
etc.

Based on a list like the above, one can quickly discover that you may
very well be carrying ~20 powered devices with which to deliberate
their care & feeding.

From a 'Reductio ad absurdium' perspective, if they all took unique
proprietary batteries that each needed their own charger, then we
would be stuck around carrying 20 chargers and 20 different types of
spares.

The reality is that it isn't quite this bad. For example,
wris****ches weren't mentioned because their button-batteries
typically last years. The basic point here is that there's value in
standardizing of battery form factors/types. Thus, the next question
is merely in the details of which specific batteries to standardize
upon, and why is X or Y a good or bad selection.

From a recent trip, I found that I carried 17 discrete devices that
used 6 different types of batteries (ignoring stuff that used long
life button-batteries). Their distribution breakdown was:

Battery Type#1: used by 7 devices
Battery Type#2: used by 5 devices
Battery Type#3: used by 2 devices
Battery Type#4: used by 1 device
Battery Type#5: used by 1 device
Battery Type#6: used by 1 device

For chargers:
Charger A: recharged #1 & #2
Charger B: recharged #2 only
Charger C: recharged #3 only
Charger D: recharged #4 & #5

You'll note that on the above, Charger B seems superfluous: it was
present so as to add redundancy for Type#2 and also increase
recharging capacity. Basic reason for this is that Type##2 are AA's
and that in general, a lot of generic consumer devices already use AA
(and AAA) batteries. Here, there were sets of 4, 4, 4, 4, 2 (camera,
external strobe, two digital wallets, and a GPS) which were in heavy
daily use. These five devices shared a pool of six AAs for spares and
in a pinch, they can cannibalize too. Taking this into consideration
with a similar case with Charger A (Type#1: AAAs), we end up with 2
chargers supporting 12 devices, or a ratio of 1:6 instead of 1:1,
which results in some amount of size/weight savings.

While this may all sound to be relatively small, when you're working
with flights on small charter aircraft, every little bit starts to add
up. We had a 17kg total (all gear, all clothes) weight limit per
person, so many items invariably get cut and left behind.


I paid $15 for a
pack of 4 last month at B&H, whereas when one looks at the proprietary
camera batteries, you're often in for a royal soaking. For example,
the ~800mAh CGR-S006 battery for the Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ28 is $50
for the OEM and $28 for the 3rd party aftermarket version. ...

I just got an OEM battery for $20. At that price cost is not an issue
to me.

I merely used B&H for all prices; its convenient, verifiable by others
(if they really care) and even if an item is a bit more expensive
there, because of consolidation into a larger order, there's no
shipping cost to consider as part of the true total cost. In any
case, I mostly look at the cost factor as "gravy", since it is a
higher personal priority to reduce equipment size/weight by being able
to carry fewer rechargers.


-hh

Financially supporting known bigots makes you just as much of a bigot.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22bh...deo%22+lawsuit

-hh wrote:

Nevertheless, I did make a mistake: to compare Amp-hours is only
valid within the same voltage battery. As such, the OEM-vs-
Aftermarket comparisons were valid, but to compare a battery pack to a
single 1.2v NiMH **might not** be: it depends on the voltage of said
battery pack.

Pretty rare. For my D-SLR I could compare the six AA batteries at 7.2V
in the vertical grip to one or two BP511 batteries in the vertical grip
at 7.4 volts, and it'd be fairly close to compare just mAH. Six 2000 maH
Eneloops would cost $15. One 2000mAH after market BP511 from a reputable
supplier costs $12. The cost advantage of the Li-Ion is slight, and of
course for less common Li-Ion packs the Eneloops would have a slight
advantage. Of course I can store twice as much energy in the vertical
grip with two 2000mAH Li-Ion packs than I can with six 2000mAH Eneloop
AA cells, which illustrates why AA battery powered cameras are usually
found only at the low end (with a few exceptions) where the manufacturer
want to avoid the expense of providing a charger and a battery pack.

I don't know what you originally meant because most P&S cameras use two
or four AA batteries (2.4V or 4.8V for NiMH) or a one or two cell Li-Ion
pack (3.7V or 7.4V). With a more than 50% difference in the voltage
between the NiMH batteries and the Li-Ion batteries it only makes sense
to compare the energy stored in each.

In any case, the bottom line is that AA batteries don't cost 1/10 as
much as Li-Ion packs, when you compare WH to WH they're pretty close in
price.

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 03:26:52 -0800 (PST), -hh
wrote in
:

Nevertheless, I did make a mistake: to compare Amp-hours is only
valid within the same voltage battery. As such, the OEM-vs-
Aftermarket comparisons were valid, but to compare a battery pack to a
single 1.2v NiMH **might not** be: it depends on the voltage of said
battery pack.

True, but the apposite comparison of battery packs for a given device is
a ratio of 3 NiMH/NiCad cells to 1 Li-ion cell, for which the pack cell
voltage is essentially the same, making readily available mAh specs
directly relevant, all the pontificating and hairsplitting
notwithstanding. The only real mistake would be comparing a different
ratio (e.g., 1 cell for 1 cell).
--
Best regards,
John
[Please Note: Ads belong (only) in rec.photo.marketplace.digital]

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 03:32:42 -0800 (PST), -hh
wrote in
:

SMS wrote:
Ron Hunter wrote:
...*Yesterday,
my wife's camera showed symptoms of low battery (it turned out to have
gotten wet)...

The camera with Li-Ion batteries would have been far, far less likely to
have shown symptoms of low battery, real or imagined. That's the real
bottom line.

Really? How?

When there's an electrical discharge through a water-facilitated short
circuit, how does the type of power supply make for any difference?
Are you suggesting that all cameras with Li-Ion batteries inherently
have better waterproof seals (to keep them from getting wet) because
there's some law that says that they must?

Correct -- he's just blowing smoke as usual. The only comparable option
with Li-ion would be to carry spare charged batteries.
--
Best regards,
John
[Please Note: Ads belong (only) in rec.photo.marketplace.digital]

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 05:25:29 -0800 (PST), -hh
wrote in
:

John Navas wrote:

The batteries are too small and light for that to be an issue. My case
couldn't really be any smaller even without them.

'Small and Light' depends on how one is counting.

True, but the battery is only 43.5 g.
Would you not count that as light?
--
Best regards,
John
[Please Note: Ads belong (only) in rec.photo.marketplace.digital]

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:44:58 -0800 (PST), -hh
wrote in
:

John Navas wrote:
-hh wrote:
John Navas wrote:
The batteries are too small and light for that to be an issue. *My case
couldn't really be any smaller even without them.

'Small and Light' depends on how one is counting.

True, but the battery is only 43.5 g. *
Would you not count that as light? *

How much does it weigh, including its charger?

I don't really need to bring the charger, but it's almost as light as
the battery, and lives in the case.
--
Best regards,
John
[Please Note: Ads belong (only) in rec.photo.marketplace.digital]

X-DMCA-Complaints-To:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:38:57 -0800 (PST), -hh
wrote in
:

John Navas wrote:
*-hh wrote:

How much does it weigh, including its charger?

I don't really need to bring the charger, but it's almost as
light as the battery, and lives in the case.

Understood, but its still not zero, and what may be insignificant to
you (or me) on its own, may not necessarily always be so. Its
increasingly easy to get nickel-and-dime'd to death with similarly
"small/light" items: individually, they may not be a big deal, but in
aggregate sum, they add up.

As such, I don't consider even a 43.5g battery to be "light" when I
don't have the context identified. Afterall, the context may require
ten of these batteries, which adds up to a pound, and 1lb is a quick
5% of the total weight budget allowed for your porter on the Inca
trail...etc.

What may work just fine when operating out of the back of your truck
only 5 miles from home may become another thing when you're 500 miles
from the nearest pavement.

Your points are valid, but my own case never leaves me, so the porter
wouldn't be an issue.
--
Best regards,
John
[Please Note: Ads belong (only) in rec.photo.marketplace.digital]