Rear back-up cameras mandated in new cars

On May 24, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):

On 5/23/2018 3:17 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):

On 5/23/2018 9:47 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, Whisky-dave wrote
(in ):

On Wednesday, 23 May 2018 11:53:59 UTC+1, android wrote:

An act of God? I don't think soo... Try the devil!

The devil can't exist without God.

Neither exist without snake oil salesmen, and a receptive audience willing
to be led blindly to paradise.

...and then there is politics which isn’t too different from religion.

It is my personal belief that, at least in the Middle East, religion is
primarily used, and has been used as an excuse for power.

Religion has always been used to exercise power, and to control the masses
from ancient times globally to the present here in the USA with the
religious right, and the Middle East with Islam, Judeism, and Christianity.

Consider that Romans reinvented the Greek gods as Roman versions, and added
their particular twist with regard to interpretation. Then when faced with a
massive political split, Constantine adopted Christianity as the state
religion to legitimize it. The Catholic Church has run with it ever since,
controlling European monarchies through the dark ages. Then we got Luther,
Calvin, and the protestant split.

Today we have the ultimate religious political control in the USA with Trump
giving the religious right all they want, as long as he gets their support.
They turn a blind eye to his own moral decadance to achieve their gains. So
much for separation of church and state.

In support of your statement:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2018/05/05/franklin-graham-trumps-affair-with-stormy-daniels-is-nobodys-business/

The hypocrisy stinks enough to validate my position totally.

You might also like:
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/george-orwells-animal-farm-provides-perfect-guide-authoritarianism-trump-era/

WARNING! It's a scary read.

Orwell was always more than “1984�, and the “Animal Farm� analogy
fits the Trumpocrasy perfectly.


I have lots of anecdotal documentation on that. I am not saying that the
true religious believers lack good faith, just that any of them are being exploited.

Blind faith is a dangerous thing regardless of the religion. The Cargo
Cultists are still waiting for those flying gods to return.
It is the hypocrisy that I attack.

What amazes me is that so many are blind to the hypocrisy.

I am a spiritualist, who believes
that there was a creator of the universe, and our highest obligation is
to treat each other with dignity and respect. From what I understand you
do not believe in a creator.

My father was raised as a Baptist, but lost whatever faith he had in the
Pacific in WWII, and has effectively been an atheist to this day. My mother
was raised in the Church of England, but was more concerned with how society
saw her faith, rather than actually following it. That led me to be, at my
mother’s insistance, to be thrown to the C of E, and the Episcopalian
Church. By the time I reached my mid-teens, the army with a little meditation
in green, and a very science based education I adopted my father’s
position, and consider myself an atheist. I am certainly not a creationist,
but more of a big bang theorist.

I will go with Einstein, to paraphrase: the
probability of our universe having been created is much higher than it
occurring by chance. The basis for my statement is that he said that to
me. (I met him when I was about ten years old. And too young to question
him about details.)

I would be happy to discuss our different beliefs off line.

Ultimately when beliefs are discussed, the conversation degrades into chaos,
and animosity.

--

Regards,
Savageduck

On Thu, 24 May 2018 05:30:46 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 24 May 2018 10:54:38 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2018 02:45:24 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 24 May 2018 01:08:22 UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 23 May 2018 07:43:19 -0700 (PDT), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 23 May 2018 14:48:02 UTC+1, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, Whisky-dave wrote
(in ):

On Wednesday, 23 May 2018 11:53:59 UTC+1, android wrote:

An act of God? I don't think soo... Try the devil!

The devil can't exist without God.

Neither exist without snake oil salesmen, and a receptive audience willing to
be led blindly to paradise.

The point was that the devil is the arch rival of God without a/the God they're can't be a devil as it was invented by christians

Umm - no. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil

In Christianity, the manifestation of the Devil is the Hebrew Satan; the primary opponent of God.[4][5] While in Christiany, the Devil was created by God,


in Absolute dualism, the Devil is alternatively seen as an independent principle besides the good God. Proponents of such dualism can be found in Zoroastrism, Manichaeism, Albanenses and partly in Catharism. Some other religious and philosophical views, like Thomism,[6] Kabbalah,[7] Bahaism, Sufism and Ahmadiyya, hold that evil has no ontological existence and is regarded as something illusory.


So who is the oppisute or buddha, who is opposite the prophet mohammad (peace be upon him). Sikhism ?, hindi ?

I presume you are being difficult rather than obtuse. My "Umm - no"
was directed at the last word of your text "...


Which last word ?
Most speak in sentances, so which last word.

Yes - you are being difficult. Are you bored or summat?

as it was invented by
christians". My point was that it wasn't invented by Christians.

from :-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil#Etymology
Christianity identifies the Devil ("Satan") with the serpent who tempted Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, and describes him as a "fallen angel" who terrorizes the world through evil.

Christians can identify the devil with whomever they like, but they
didn't invent the devil.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Thu, 24 May 2018 13:53:20 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

On 5/23/2018 3:17 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):

On 5/23/2018 9:47 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, Whisky-dave wrote
(in ):

On Wednesday, 23 May 2018 11:53:59 UTC+1, android wrote:

An act of God? I don't think soo... Try the devil!

The devil can't exist without God.

Neither exist without snake oil salesmen, and a receptive audience willing
to
be led blindly to paradise.

...and then there is politics which isn’t too different from religion.

It is my personal belief that, at least in the Middle East, religion is
primarily used, and has been used as an excuse for power.

Religion has always been used to exercise power, and to control the masses
from ancient times globally to the present here in the USA with the religious
right, and the Middle East with Islam, Judeism, and Christianity.

Consider that Romans reinvented the Greek gods as Roman versions, and added
their particular twist with regard to interpretation. Then when faced with a
massive political split, Constantine adopted Christianity as the state
religion to legitimize it. The Catholic Church has run with it ever since,
controlling European monarchies through the dark ages. Then we got Luther,
Calvin, and the protestant split.

Today we have the ultimate religious political control in the USA with Trump
giving the religious right all they want, as long as he gets their support.
They turn a blind eye to his own moral decadance to achieve their gains. So
much for separation of church and state.

In support of your statement:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2018/05/05/franklin-graham-trumps-affair-with-stormy-daniels-is-nobodys-business/


You might also like:
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/george-orwells-animal-farm-provides-perfect-guide-authoritarianism-trump-era/

WARNING! It's a scary read.

It scares me that someone should present this as a valid comparison.
It's even more scary that others should take it seriously.


I have lots of anecdotal documentation on that. I am not saying that the true religious
believers lack good faith, just that any of them are being exploited.

Blind faith is a dangerous thing regardless of the religion. The Cargo
Cultists are still waiting for those flying gods to return.

It is the hypocrisy that I attack. I am a spiritualist, who believes
that there was a creator of the universe, and our highest obligation is
to treat each other with dignity and respect. From what I understand you
do not believe in a creator. I will go with Einstein, to paraphrase: the
probability of our universe having been created is much higher than it
occurring by chance. The basis for my statement is that he said that to
me. (I met him when I was about ten years old. And too young to question
him about details.)

I would be happy to discuss our different beliefs off line.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On 5/24/2018 2:57 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 24, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):

On 5/23/2018 3:17 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):

On 5/23/2018 9:47 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, Whisky-dave wrote
(in ):

On Wednesday, 23 May 2018 11:53:59 UTC+1, android wrote:

An act of God? I don't think soo... Try the devil!

The devil can't exist without God.

Neither exist without snake oil salesmen, and a receptive audience willing
to be led blindly to paradise.

...and then there is politics which isn’t too different from religion.

It is my personal belief that, at least in the Middle East, religion is
primarily used, and has been used as an excuse for power.

Religion has always been used to exercise power, and to control the masses
from ancient times globally to the present here in the USA with the
religious right, and the Middle East with Islam, Judeism, and Christianity.

Consider that Romans reinvented the Greek gods as Roman versions, and added
their particular twist with regard to interpretation. Then when faced with a
massive political split, Constantine adopted Christianity as the state
religion to legitimize it. The Catholic Church has run with it ever since,
controlling European monarchies through the dark ages. Then we got Luther,
Calvin, and the protestant split.

Today we have the ultimate religious political control in the USA with Trump
giving the religious right all they want, as long as he gets their support.
They turn a blind eye to his own moral decadance to achieve their gains. So
much for separation of church and state.

In support of your statement:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2018/05/05/franklin-graham-trumps-affair-with-stormy-daniels-is-nobodys-business/

The hypocrisy stinks enough to validate my position totally.

You might also like:
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/george-orwells-animal-farm-provides-perfect-guide-authoritarianism-trump-era/

WARNING! It's a scary read.

Orwell was always more than “1984�, and the “Animal Farm� analogy
fits the Trumpocrasy perfectly.


I have lots of anecdotal documentation on that. I am not saying that the
true religious believers lack good faith, just that any of them are being exploited.

Blind faith is a dangerous thing regardless of the religion. The Cargo
Cultists are still waiting for those flying gods to return.
It is the hypocrisy that I attack.

What amazes me is that so many are blind to the hypocrisy.

I am a spiritualist, who believes
that there was a creator of the universe, and our highest obligation is
to treat each other with dignity and respect. From what I understand you
do not believe in a creator.

My father was raised as a Baptist, but lost whatever faith he had in the
Pacific in WWII, and has effectively been an atheist to this day. My mother
was raised in the Church of England, but was more concerned with how society
saw her faith, rather than actually following it. That led me to be, at my
mother’s insistance, to be thrown to the C of E, and the Episcopalian
Church. By the time I reached my mid-teens, the army with a little meditation
in green, and a very science based education I adopted my father’s
position, and consider myself an atheist. I am certainly not a creationist,
but more of a big bang theorist.

I will go with Einstein, to paraphrase: the
probability of our universe having been created is much higher than it
occurring by chance. The basis for my statement is that he said that to
me. (I met him when I was about ten years old. And too young to question
him about details.)

I would be happy to discuss our different beliefs off line.

Ultimately when beliefs are discussed, the conversation degrades into chaos,
and animosity.


It depends. If you are talking for the purpose of convincing me, and I
for the purpose of convincing you, Yes. However, I think that if both
parties are talking, in good faith, for the purpose of understanding,
then, no. It's a mutual learning experience.

--
PeterN

On 5/24/2018 4:46 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2018 13:53:20 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

On 5/23/2018 3:17 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):

On 5/23/2018 9:47 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, Whisky-dave wrote
(in ):

On Wednesday, 23 May 2018 11:53:59 UTC+1, android wrote:

An act of God? I don't think soo... Try the devil!

The devil can't exist without God.

Neither exist without snake oil salesmen, and a receptive audience willing
to
be led blindly to paradise.

...and then there is politics which isn’t too different from religion.

It is my personal belief that, at least in the Middle East, religion is
primarily used, and has been used as an excuse for power.

Religion has always been used to exercise power, and to control the masses
from ancient times globally to the present here in the USA with the religious
right, and the Middle East with Islam, Judeism, and Christianity.

Consider that Romans reinvented the Greek gods as Roman versions, and added
their particular twist with regard to interpretation. Then when faced with a
massive political split, Constantine adopted Christianity as the state
religion to legitimize it. The Catholic Church has run with it ever since,
controlling European monarchies through the dark ages. Then we got Luther,
Calvin, and the protestant split.

Today we have the ultimate religious political control in the USA with Trump
giving the religious right all they want, as long as he gets their support.
They turn a blind eye to his own moral decadance to achieve their gains. So
much for separation of church and state.

In support of your statement:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2018/05/05/franklin-graham-trumps-affair-with-stormy-daniels-is-nobodys-business/


You might also like:
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/george-orwells-animal-farm-provides-perfect-guide-authoritarianism-trump-era/

WARNING! It's a scary read.

It scares me that someone should present this as a valid comparison.
It's even more scary that others should take it seriously.

People damn well ought to take that allegory seriously. The failure to
do so would have disastrous consequences.


--
PeterN

On 5/24/2018 2:57 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 24, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):

On 5/23/2018 3:17 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):

On 5/23/2018 9:47 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, Whisky-dave wrote
(in ):

On Wednesday, 23 May 2018 11:53:59 UTC+1, android wrote:

An act of God? I don't think soo... Try the devil!

The devil can't exist without God.

Neither exist without snake oil salesmen, and a receptive audience willing
to be led blindly to paradise.

...and then there is politics which isn’t too different from religion.

It is my personal belief that, at least in the Middle East, religion is
primarily used, and has been used as an excuse for power.

Religion has always been used to exercise power, and to control the masses
from ancient times globally to the present here in the USA with the
religious right, and the Middle East with Islam, Judeism, and Christianity.

Consider that Romans reinvented the Greek gods as Roman versions, and added
their particular twist with regard to interpretation. Then when faced with a
massive political split, Constantine adopted Christianity as the state
religion to legitimize it. The Catholic Church has run with it ever since,
controlling European monarchies through the dark ages. Then we got Luther,
Calvin, and the protestant split.

Today we have the ultimate religious political control in the USA with Trump
giving the religious right all they want, as long as he gets their support.
They turn a blind eye to his own moral decadance to achieve their gains. So
much for separation of church and state.

In support of your statement:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2018/05/05/franklin-graham-trumps-affair-with-stormy-daniels-is-nobodys-business/

The hypocrisy stinks enough to validate my position totally.

You might also like:
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/george-orwells-animal-farm-provides-perfect-guide-authoritarianism-trump-era/

WARNING! It's a scary read.

Orwell was always more than “1984�, and the “Animal Farm� analogy
fits the Trumpocrasy perfectly.


I have lots of anecdotal documentation on that. I am not saying that the
true religious believers lack good faith, just that any of them are being exploited.

Blind faith is a dangerous thing regardless of the religion. The Cargo
Cultists are still waiting for those flying gods to return.
It is the hypocrisy that I attack.

What amazes me is that so many are blind to the hypocrisy.

Why does that amaze you. Many of these evangelists are thinking that by
putting up with Trump for four years, in the hope that he will appoint
young fundamentalist judges. They are trading four years for forty. When
he changes his mind because someone offers him more of what he wants,
then they will denounce him. Others follow him, because Trump is a mean
spirited bully, and they are afraid of him.


--
PeterN

On Thu, 24 May 2018 22:20:32 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

On 5/24/2018 4:46 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2018 13:53:20 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

On 5/23/2018 3:17 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):

On 5/23/2018 9:47 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, Whisky-dave wrote
(in ):

On Wednesday, 23 May 2018 11:53:59 UTC+1, android wrote:

An act of God? I don't think soo... Try the devil!

The devil can't exist without God.

Neither exist without snake oil salesmen, and a receptive audience willing
to
be led blindly to paradise.

...and then there is politics which isn’t too different from religion.

It is my personal belief that, at least in the Middle East, religion is
primarily used, and has been used as an excuse for power.

Religion has always been used to exercise power, and to control the masses
from ancient times globally to the present here in the USA with the religious
right, and the Middle East with Islam, Judeism, and Christianity.

Consider that Romans reinvented the Greek gods as Roman versions, and added
their particular twist with regard to interpretation. Then when faced with a
massive political split, Constantine adopted Christianity as the state
religion to legitimize it. The Catholic Church has run with it ever since,
controlling European monarchies through the dark ages. Then we got Luther,
Calvin, and the protestant split.

Today we have the ultimate religious political control in the USA with Trump
giving the religious right all they want, as long as he gets their support.
They turn a blind eye to his own moral decadance to achieve their gains. So
much for separation of church and state.

In support of your statement:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2018/05/05/franklin-graham-trumps-affair-with-stormy-daniels-is-nobodys-business/


You might also like:
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/george-orwells-animal-farm-provides-perfect-guide-authoritarianism-trump-era/

WARNING! It's a scary read.

It scares me that someone should present this as a valid comparison.
It's even more scary that others should take it seriously.

People damn well ought to take that allegory seriously. The failure to
do so would have disastrous consequences.


Its only a few weeks since I last read 1984 and I'm damned if I can
make out much of a parallel.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On May 24, 2018, Eric Stevens wrote
(in ):

On Thu, 24 May 2018 22:20:32 -0400, PeterN
wrote:
On 5/24/2018 4:46 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2018 13:53:20 -0400, PeterN
wrote:
On 5/23/2018 3:17 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):
On 5/23/2018 9:47 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, Whisky-dave wrote
(in ):
On Wednesday, 23 May 2018 11:53:59 UTC+1, android wrote:

An act of God? I don't think soo... Try the devil!

The devil can't exist without God.

Neither exist without snake oil salesmen, and a receptive audience
willing to be led blindly to paradise.

...and then there is politics which isn’t too different from religion.

It is my personal belief that, at least in the Middle East, religion is
primarily used, and has been used as an excuse for power.

Religion has always been used to exercise power, and to control the
masses from ancient times globally to the present here in the USA with the
religious right, and the Middle East with Islam, Judeism, and Christianity.

Consider that Romans reinvented the Greek gods as Roman versions, and
added their particular twist with regard to interpretation. Then when faced
with a massive political split, Constantine adopted Christianity as the state
religion to legitimize it. The Catholic Church has run with it ever
since, controlling European monarchies through the dark ages. Then we got
Luther, Calvin, and the protestant split.

Today we have the ultimate religious political control in the USA with
Trump giving the religious right all they want, as long as he gets their
support. They turn a blind eye to his own moral decadance to achieve their gains.
So much for separation of church and state.

In support of your statement:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2018/05/05/franklin-graham-trumps-affair-with-stormy-daniels-is-nobodys-business/

You might also like:
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/george-orwells-animal-farm-provides-perfect-guide-authoritarianism-trump-era/

WARNING! It's a scary read.

It scares me that someone should present this as a valid comparison.
It's even more scary that others should take it seriously.

People damn well ought to take that allegory seriously. The failure to
do so would have disastrous consequences.

Its only a few weeks since I last read 1984 and I'm damned if I can
make out much of a parallel.

Now try Animal Farm, and think of Trump.

--

Regards,
Savageduck

On Thu, 24 May 2018 21:00:06 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On May 24, 2018, Eric Stevens wrote
(in ):

On Thu, 24 May 2018 22:20:32 -0400, PeterN
wrote:
On 5/24/2018 4:46 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2018 13:53:20 -0400, PeterN
wrote:
On 5/23/2018 3:17 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, PeterN wrote
(in article ):
On 5/23/2018 9:47 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On May 23, 2018, Whisky-dave wrote
(in ):
On Wednesday, 23 May 2018 11:53:59 UTC+1, android wrote:

An act of God? I don't think soo... Try the devil!

The devil can't exist without God.

Neither exist without snake oil salesmen, and a receptive audience
willing to be led blindly to paradise.

...and then there is politics which isn’t too different from religion.

It is my personal belief that, at least in the Middle East, religion is
primarily used, and has been used as an excuse for power.

Religion has always been used to exercise power, and to control the
masses from ancient times globally to the present here in the USA with the
religious right, and the Middle East with Islam, Judeism, and Christianity.

Consider that Romans reinvented the Greek gods as Roman versions, and
added their particular twist with regard to interpretation. Then when faced
with a massive political split, Constantine adopted Christianity as the state
religion to legitimize it. The Catholic Church has run with it ever
since, controlling European monarchies through the dark ages. Then we got
Luther, Calvin, and the protestant split.

Today we have the ultimate religious political control in the USA with
Trump giving the religious right all they want, as long as he gets their
support. They turn a blind eye to his own moral decadance to achieve their gains.
So much for separation of church and state.

In support of your statement:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2018/05/05/franklin-graham-trumps-affair-with-stormy-daniels-is-nobodys-business/

You might also like:
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/george-orwells-animal-farm-provides-perfect-guide-authoritarianism-trump-era/

WARNING! It's a scary read.

It scares me that someone should present this as a valid comparison.
It's even more scary that others should take it seriously.

People damn well ought to take that allegory seriously. The failure to
do so would have disastrous consequences.

Its only a few weeks since I last read 1984 and I'm damned if I can
make out much of a parallel.

Now try Animal Farm, and think of Trump.

Sorry. I meant Animal Farm. In fact I read all his books.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On May 25, 2018, Eric Stevens wrote
(in ):

On Thu, 24 May 2018 21:00:06 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On May 24, 2018, Eric Stevens wrote
(in ):

Snip

Its only a few weeks since I last read 1984 and I'm damned if I can
make out much of a parallel.

Now try Animal Farm, and think of Trump.

Sorry. I meant Animal Farm. In fact I read all his books.

So have I, not recently, but many years ago. From "Down and Out in Paris�,
"Homage to Catalonia�, “The Road to Wigan Pier�, "Keep The Aspidistra
Flying�, and the two most usually considered, Animal Farm, and 1984. For me
it might be time for a reread.

--

Regards,
Savageduck