If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
What makes the tiny digicams lenses so good?
Thirty or 40 years ago I used to have a Pentax Spotmatic (printing black
and white in my own darkroom) and graduated onto several other SLRs from there. I used labs for color. My pictures were never printed beyond 10 x 8 and to be honest you might call the majority of my photos as "high quality family pictures". After years of SLRs and some higher quality 35mm compacts, I didn't really use my cameras for about 10 or 15 years. ----- Then recently I got to use one of the modern digital compacts. It was a Canon Powershot SD450. (UK: Canon IXUS 55.) 5 MP. A 6 element lens in 5 groups. Max aperture of f/2.8 at full wide angle (less on telephoto) My! Oh my! The results are really very good. I look at the tiny weeny little microscopic lens and when I see what it can do then I'm very impressed. Reviews suggest it I could get a really very decent 10 x 8 color print from this. ----- Of course contrast, color, vignetting, fringing, distortion may not be 100% but they are nevertheless more than adequate for a lot of photos. QUESTION: How does this sort of compact digital camera lens (or even those from the slightly better compacts digicams) compare to those old lenses without going to the extreme: Takumar or Super Takumar (42mm thread) on the old Spotmatic? http://tinyurl.com/8clur the FD lenses on the slightly later Canon AE-1 (bayonet). http://www.camerahobby.com/Review-AE1.html the Olympus Zuikos lenses (bayonet) found on the almost as old Olympus OM-1? http://tinyurl.com/2kwss |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
What makes the tiny digicams lenses so good?
Don W wrote:
Thirty or 40 years ago I used to have a Pentax Spotmatic (printing black and white in my own darkroom) and graduated onto several other SLRs from there. I used labs for color. My pictures were never printed beyond 10 x 8 and to be honest you might call the majority of my photos as "high quality family pictures". After years of SLRs and some higher quality 35mm compacts, I didn't really use my cameras for about 10 or 15 years. ----- Then recently I got to use one of the modern digital compacts. It was a Canon Powershot SD450. (UK: Canon IXUS 55.) 5 MP. A 6 element lens in 5 groups. Max aperture of f/2.8 at full wide angle (less on telephoto) My! Oh my! The results are really very good. I look at the tiny weeny little microscopic lens and when I see what it can do then I'm very impressed. Reviews suggest it I could get a really very decent 10 x 8 color print from this. ----- Of course contrast, color, vignetting, fringing, distortion may not be 100% but they are nevertheless more than adequate for a lot of photos. QUESTION: How does this sort of compact digital camera lens (or even those from the slightly better compacts digicams) compare to those old lenses without going to the extreme: Takumar or Super Takumar (42mm thread) on the old Spotmatic? http://tinyurl.com/8clur the FD lenses on the slightly later Canon AE-1 (bayonet). http://www.camerahobby.com/Review-AE1.html the Olympus Zuikos lenses (bayonet) found on the almost as old Olympus OM-1? http://tinyurl.com/2kwss There are many factors, not just the lens, that go into image quality. Since you are talking about different formats (size of film - sensor) it is really difficult to compare lenses. Small lenses are easier to make well. Lens design has improved over the years due to computer designs, better glass etc. Post exposure processing has been a plus in many ways (also a scourge in others). If you had a full size 35mm digital SLR you would have a better opportunity to compare apples to apples and I believe you would find that apples are apples. The lenses are not all that different. We still have good ones and some not so good and a few great. -- Joseph Meehan Dia duit |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
What makes the tiny digicams lenses so good?
Don W wrote:
[] QUESTION: How does this sort of compact digital camera lens (or even those from the slightly better compacts digicams) compare to those old lenses without going to the extreme: One reason is that they are no longer required to fit the SLR format, with its mirror making the lens back-focal length requirement much greater. Design and manufacture have, of course, improved over the years as well. David |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
What makes the tiny digicams lenses so good?
"David J Taylor" wrote: Don W wrote: [] QUESTION: How does this sort of compact digital camera lens (or even those from the slightly better compacts digicams) compare to those old lenses without going to the extreme: One reason is that they are no longer required to fit the SLR format, with its mirror making the lens back-focal length requirement much greater. That's largely only an issue for superwides; since there aren't any wides in the P&S world that isn't a significant point. One point to note, though, is that as the pixel counts have been going up, the lenses have been getting slower. It's always easier to provide good performance in a lens if it's slower. My bet, though, is that any of the lenses the OP mentioned would cough up great images if mounted on a 5D and shot at f/8; there are several people claiming certain of the Olympus OM-1 series lenses are better than current Canon lenses on the 5D. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
What makes the tiny digicams lenses so good?
David J. Littleboy wrote:
"David J Taylor" [] One reason is that they are no longer required to fit the SLR format, with its mirror making the lens back-focal length requirement much greater. That's largely only an issue for superwides; since there aren't any wides in the P&S world that isn't a significant point. But it's the whole thing about having to fit into last century's format! Give the optical designer more freedom and they can make better lenses (with everything else equal). Plus (as you cropped) the better design and manufacturing techniques today. Another point is that these are fixed lenses, designed specifically to suit the sensor used. BTW: there are now quite a large number of non-SLR cameras with 23 - 28mm lenses. David |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
What makes the tiny digicams lenses so good?
Don W wrote: QUESTION: How does this sort of compact digital camera lens (or even those from the slightly better compacts digicams) compare to those old lenses without going to the extreme: One of the things that makes some lenses on smaller, cheaper cameras work so well is that they have a smaller aperture (higher min. f/#). It is always easier to design and build a lens of smaller aperture. Lenses of larger aperture (lower f/#) are more complex even stopped down. Both the higher f/# and the shorter focal length gives you some additional depth of field. Design techniques and fab techniques have advanced in last two decades. Note that the smaller aperture is common even on compact 35mm cams, not just digitals. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
What makes the tiny digicams lenses so good?
Joseph and Don,
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but it might illicit some educated responses from camera afficionados out there like you. My Kodak DX3600 is now about five years old. The resolution of 2.2mp has always been adequate, but the quality has never been so good. It's now playing up and I anticipate it will die soon. Upon replacing it, I'd like to spend a bit to give me something that I can set up in home with some decent lighting to take nice family portraits to send abroad to the grandfolks. I've seen photos on mom's Panasonic camera that look like professional studio photographs when the lighting and backgrounds were just right by coincidence (mine has never fluked it that nice). Let's say £300 was my budget (for divorce's sake). Is there a range of models in the UK that would produce studio-worthy photos that will satisfy a trained eye such as your own? Should I concentrate on what they're calling the "prosumer" quality range and spend a bit more? |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
What makes the tiny digicams lenses so good?
"David J Taylor"
wrote: David J. Littleboy wrote: "David J Taylor" [] One reason is that they are no longer required to fit the SLR format, with its mirror making the lens back-focal length requirement much greater. That's largely only an issue for superwides; since there aren't any wides in the P&S world that isn't a significant point. But it's the whole thing about having to fit into last century's format! Give the optical designer more freedom and they can make better lenses (with everything else equal). Well, maybe. But they can't use it because if they get too close to the sensor, then the angle of incidence really will be a problem (normally, this complaint about digital is FUD because the dSLR lenses are all retrofocus (doh!), but it will impose about the same restriction on lens design as the mirror does). Plus (as you cropped) the better design and manufacturing techniques today. Another point is that these are fixed lenses, designed specifically to suit the sensor used. The last point is valid. But in terms of lines per height of resolution, the old Pentax lenses will cough up more than the P&S lenses. I don't have any such older 35mm lenses lying around, but the 35mm f/3.5 wide (medium-wide: 22mm equiv, but that's all you get in 645) for the Mamiya 645 is razor sharp on the 5D. And this particular lens has a pretty poor reputation for sharpness in the MF world. (Although it's not all that old a design, probably early 1980s or so, I'd guess.) BTW: there are now quite a large number of non-SLR cameras with 23 - 28mm lenses. That's pretty wimpy (and 24mm is still seriously rare). Both my dSLRs have 17mm equivalent lenses, and there's the Sigma 12-24 for folks who want to have real fun. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
What makes the tiny digicams lenses so good?
"Don W" wrote in message
... QUESTION: How does this sort of compact digital camera lens (or even those from the slightly better compacts digicams) compare to those old lenses without going to the extreme: It is as bit more complicated comparing digitsl to film, because on digital the lens is not the only factor that determines the quality of the image. I started in 35mm in 1973, with a Spotmatic IIa, which I still have, along with another dozen or so bodies. In my case, I did not want to abandon my familiar film gear, so I went with a film scanner, and I am quite content with that arrangement. My requirements are modest, and I shoot only a roll per week, if that. I have had a 2.3MP digicam since 2000. It was prosumer when it was released, and I have always been quite pleased with its results. Nine-element, all glass lens. Remote control (great as a substitute for a cable release when camera is on a tripod). And I always have my film gear when I require higher resolution images. The film scanner has, in a sense, turned all of my film cameras into digital cameras. Since I don't have large expenditures for film and processing, this setup works well for me. If you still have your Spotmatics, and if you are the lower-volume shooter that your post suggests, you too might want to consider trying a film scanner, rather than starting over with digital bodies and their lenses, and paying a fortune to replicate what you already have in the film domain. This approach is probably unsuitable for people that shoot lots of images. I rarely see reviews of lenses for digital cameras, and current software like PSP or PS can correct for things like pinsuchion and barrel distortion, digital noise reduction, chromatic aberration ("purple fringing"), and perspective correction ("falling buildings"). It can also increase or decrease sharpening, allowing you to mimic characteristics of specific lenses. So the lens itself is not longer as critical a factor as it was back in the days when shooting transparencies--when it was just the lens and the film, with no intermediate influences. My sense is that it is easier to use less-than-stellar lenses with digital photography, since the images can be tweaked during the editing stage. It may take additional time to tweak the images, a problem for professionals for whom time is money, but we amateurs have a different set of requirements than pros do. For family photos of 8 x 10 or smaller, your choices are broad. Most digicams are perfectly well-suited to that type of photography. I would say that your ability to exploit the features of your editing software is probably more important than your choice of camera, for such shots. Digital P&S cameras are becoming more like commodities. Manufacturers are struggling to define niches that separate their products from the rest of the pack, but any feature of value can be easily mimiced by other manufacturers within 6 months, when the latest updated models come out. For my part, I've stopped trying to stay on top of the latest developments--my film cameras do exactly whet I want them to do, I already have lots of gear, and the film scanner enables me to take advantage of the one feature of digital imaging that means the most to ME: that of being able to have a digital darkroom where I can edit (and, hopefully, improve) my images prior to printing them. The method of capture is of no importance at all. Takumar or Super Takumar (42mm thread) on the old Spotmatic? http://tinyurl.com/8clur the FD lenses on the slightly later Canon AE-1 (bayonet). http://www.camerahobby.com/Review-AE1.html the Olympus Zuikos lenses (bayonet) found on the almost as old Olympus OM-1? http://tinyurl.com/2kwss |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
What makes the tiny digicams lenses so good?
David J. Littleboy wrote:
"David J Taylor" [] Plus (as you cropped) the better design and manufacturing techniques today. Another point is that these are fixed lenses, designed specifically to suit the sensor used. The last point is valid. But in terms of lines per height of resolution, the old Pentax lenses will cough up more than the P&S lenses. I don't have any such older 35mm lenses lying around, but the 35mm f/3.5 wide (medium-wide: 22mm equiv, but that's all you get in 645) for the Mamiya 645 is razor sharp on the 5D. And this particular lens has a pretty poor reputation for sharpness in the MF world. (Although it's not all that old a design, probably early 1980s or so, I'd guess.) BTW: there are now quite a large number of non-SLR cameras with 23 - 28mm lenses. That's pretty wimpy (and 24mm is still seriously rare). Both my dSLRs have 17mm equivalent lenses, and there's the Sigma 12-24 for folks who want to have real fun. Accepted that what I would call ultra-wides are not available in non-SLR cameras, although the correct use of such lenses takes a lot of care. With digital, the need for the lens MTF changes. No longer do you want a long tail of ever decreasing MTF, but as high an MTF as you can get up to the Nyquist frequency (i.e. half the sampling rate), and then no more. I've not been involved in optical design enough to know whether of not it's easier to try and get that sort of MTF curve rather than another, but I suspect that being allowed a wider PSF (which this seems to imply) might also ease the design of lenses for strictly digital cameras (non SLR cameras where the sensor resolution is fixed). David |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
lens hacking question: good movie camera lenses? | zeitgeist | Digital SLR Cameras | 1 | June 20th 06 03:37 PM |
Canon digital bodies and Nikon lenses | Joseph Chamberlain, DDS | Digital SLR Cameras | 128 | November 20th 05 12:01 AM |
For Sale: Nikon N70 + lenses + 8x10 papers + some accessories. | Henry Pena | 35mm Equipment for Sale | 0 | July 5th 04 08:02 PM |
New Leica digital back info.... | Barney | 35mm Photo Equipment | 19 | June 30th 04 12:45 AM |
FS: 8 Nikon lenses including 80-200 Nikkor 2.8 zoom and accessories | Henry Peña | 35mm Equipment for Sale | 0 | November 11th 03 06:20 PM |