DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:31:09 +0000, Tony Polson wrote in
:

"Neil Harrington" wrote:

It's been said here that the lenses
are of Panasonic design, to which Leitz suggested some modifications.

That was stated on one of the Leica online forums by a representative
of Leica (Solms).

Citation? And how would you know the person was qualified to speak for
Leica in any event?

That
sounds reasonable, and it hardly makes it what most people would consider a
Leica lens.

Agree 100%. It isn't a bad lens. It appears sharp and it is quite
good at resisting flare. But it has quite strong rectilinear
distortion and there is noticeable colour fringing. It is probably in
the top 10% of zoom lenses fitted to digital point and shoot cameras,
but that is not saying much.

It actually has relatively little distortion, and is excellent overall,
particularly in terms of aberrations.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

In article , John Navas
wrote:

If by "electronic zoom" you mean zoom by push button, there's no way that's
anywhere near as fast or accurate as a real manual zoom. I love my Nikon
Coolpixes, and can live with the rocker switch zoom but it's a poor
substitute for manual. I can understand why they had to do it that way for
the sake of compactness (even on my 8700 and 8800 which are not so compact),
but that doesn't make me like it any better.

A sample of two does not a truth make, and motorized zoom on the Canon
Pro1 is better than on your Nikons. Fly by wire can be much better than
manual control, as any qualified commercial or military pilot would tell
you.

what does a fly by wire plane have to do with a camera?

zoom control with a mechanical linkage is much faster than zoom by
wire. using terms you often use, it is 'near instantaneous' to zoom
from near to far and back and any point in between. i've yet to see
*any* motorized zoom that is as fast or as easy to use.

There is no "bump in the learning curve" that when you "get past" suddenly
converts an inferior system into an equally good one.

The "bump in the learning curve" is when a photographer learns how to
use a tool effectively. What matters is the photographer, not the tool.

the tool is slower. if that works for you, great. it doesn't for a
lot of people.

Power zoom, however
accomplished, is simply more awkward, slower and miuch less precise than
manual zoom. Anyone who's used both knows this.

There's nothing inherently "inferior" about motorized zoom, which can
actually be more precise in terms of focus than manual zoom -- it's just
different, as any good photographer knows.

it's slower and that makes it not an option in many cases. 'been there
done that.'

John Navas wrote:
Neil Harrington wrote:
GrangerD wrote:

Oh look, the RESIDENT TROLLS are still whining that their trolling tactics
can't
be so easily defeated (nor so easily exposed). I can use ANY nntp server
on the
planet with ANY headers if I wanted to.
Your header still says Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088. Jump up and down and flap
your lip all you like, you're too ignorant to do anything but the easy stuff
that most ten-year-olds can do, as I said.

That's meaningless -- lots of people use that news client.

Also using Easynews, use of the term 'resident troll', etc. and a new
name every day is the trademark of our recent anti-DSLR troll.

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:09:50 -0800, nospam wrote
in :

In article , John Navas
wrote:

A sample of two does not a truth make, and motorized zoom on the Canon
Pro1 is better than on your Nikons. Fly by wire can be much better than
manual control, as any qualified commercial or military pilot would tell
you.

what does a fly by wire plane have to do with a camera?

It's an analogy. The same arguments were made when fly by wire was
introduced, but there's no longer any such debate. Game over.

zoom control with a mechanical linkage is much faster than zoom by
wire.

Depends on the implementation. Zoom by wire can be faster, since it's
not limited to a 1:1 relationship, it can have multiple speeds
(Panasonic FZ8 zoom being a case in point) and use acceleration, just
like a computer mouse, something we now take for granted -- surely you
don't use an old 1:1 mouse! Zoom by wire can also be more accurate
since it can be coupled to focus control -- no lens is perfectly
parfocal.

using terms you often use, it is 'near instantaneous' to zoom
from near to far and back and any point in between. i've yet to see
*any* motorized zoom that is as fast or as easy to use.

You need to think outside the box.

There is no "bump in the learning curve" that when you "get past" suddenly
converts an inferior system into an equally good one.

The "bump in the learning curve" is when a photographer learns how to
use a tool effectively. What matters is the photographer, not the tool.

the tool is slower. if that works for you, great. it doesn't for a
lot of people.

With all due respect, the difference is immaterial for anyone that's
learned how to use the tool.

Power zoom, however
accomplished, is simply more awkward, slower and miuch less precise than
manual zoom. Anyone who's used both knows this.

There's nothing inherently "inferior" about motorized zoom, which can
actually be more precise in terms of focus than manual zoom -- it's just
different, as any good photographer knows.

it's slower and that makes it not an option in many cases.

I've learned how to use my tool, and so it is an option for me.

'been there
done that.'

That's not what you're saying.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

"nospam" wrote in message
...
In article , John Navas
wrote:

If by "electronic zoom" you mean zoom by push button, there's no way
that's
anywhere near as fast or accurate as a real manual zoom. I love my Nikon
Coolpixes, and can live with the rocker switch zoom but it's a poor
substitute for manual. I can understand why they had to do it that way
for
the sake of compactness (even on my 8700 and 8800 which are not so
compact),
but that doesn't make me like it any better.

A sample of two does not a truth make, and motorized zoom on the Canon
Pro1 is better than on your Nikons. Fly by wire can be much better than
manual control, as any qualified commercial or military pilot would tell
you.

what does a fly by wire plane have to do with a camera?

zoom control with a mechanical linkage is much faster than zoom by
wire. using terms you often use, it is 'near instantaneous' to zoom
from near to far and back and any point in between. i've yet to see
*any* motorized zoom that is as fast or as easy to use.

There is no "bump in the learning curve" that when you "get past"
suddenly
converts an inferior system into an equally good one.

The "bump in the learning curve" is when a photographer learns how to
use a tool effectively. What matters is the photographer, not the tool.

the tool is slower. if that works for you, great. it doesn't for a
lot of people.

Power zoom, however
accomplished, is simply more awkward, slower and miuch less precise than
manual zoom. Anyone who's used both knows this.

There's nothing inherently "inferior" about motorized zoom, which can
actually be more precise in terms of focus than manual zoom -- it's just
different, as any good photographer knows.

it's slower and that makes it not an option in many cases. 'been there
done that.'

Manual zooming has been much improved by the development of auto
focusing......Now. one can turn ones full attention to zooming, since the
camera handles focusing without one's help....Before, I would sometimes get
confused when I had to do both. In general, automatic functions (if they
work properly) free up your mind so you can concentrate on other, more
important things, like composition.

On Nov 18, 9:05 pm, John Navas wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:26:15 -0800 (PST), Annika1980
wrote in
:

Calling a Crapasonic Lumix lens a "Leica" is kinda like calling a VW
bug a Porsche.

Panasonic is actually a world class manufacturer.

Got anything substantial, or is flaming all you've got?

Yeah, I got something substantial swingin.

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:59:23 -1000, Scott W wrote
in :

John Navas wrote:

Zoom is controlled by a rotary switch around the shutter, and the
two-speed zooming is fast and accurate once you learn how to use it
effectively.

Like pre-focus, I normally zoom before shooting, not during shooting,
firing when the object reaches my preselected focus/zoom point. While
this may not work for you, it's a technique I've refined over decades
that works very well for me.

Well if you can live with that limitation great, I really can't. In
many of the photos I am taking I am trying to get the timing right and
this is rarely when the subject happens to be at a predetermined place.

What it comes down to is you are willing to live with limitations in
order to use a smaller camera that does not need to have lenses changed.

What it actually comes down to is that I've learned how to use my
cameras well enough not to have such limitations. Just because you have
such limitations doesn't mean that I do, and there are undoubtedly
photographers that can get even more out of my gear than I can.

For some of my photography I am also willing to live with these
limitation, but for most of it I am not. When I am shooting a race the
canoes are coming by so fast that I am shooting about 1 shoot a second,
and even then I miss a few boats, no time to pre-focus.

You're spoiled (no offense intended). I shot motorsports for years with
great success with no auto-focus, and I still wouldn't use it -- too
often focuses on the wrong object, losing the shot.

If I saw a lot of top quality photography of the type I do coming out of
point and shoots I would give their ability's more consideration, but
this is simply not the case. The best images that I see are from DSLRs,
why do you thing that is?

Presumably because of where you're looking.

I have lots of great images from my own fixed lens cameras, including
this one of the U.S. Kiteboarding National Championship:
http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1020078il3.jpg
Much faster action than a canoe race.

It's one thing to say you can't do it, but another thing entirely to
tell me I (and therefore others) can't do it.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:37:29 -0800 (PST), Annika1980
wrote in
:

On Nov 18, 9:05 pm, John Navas wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:26:15 -0800 (PST), Annika1980
wrote in
:

Calling a Crapasonic Lumix lens a "Leica" is kinda like calling a VW
bug a Porsche.

Panasonic is actually a world class manufacturer.

Got anything substantial, or is flaming all you've got?

Yeah, I got something substantial swingin.

That's what I thought, but thanks for removing all doubt.

--
Best regards,
John Navas http:/navasgroup.com

"A little learning is a dangerous thing." [Alexander Pope]
"It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant,
than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." [Mark Twain]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:25:09 -0800, "William Graham"
wrote in :

Manual zooming has been much improved by the development of auto
focusing......Now. one can turn ones full attention to zooming, since the
camera handles focusing without one's help....Before, I would sometimes get
confused when I had to do both. In general, automatic functions (if they
work properly) free up your mind so you can concentrate on other, more
important things, like composition.

Your camera doesn't have auto-composition?!

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:37:22 -1000, Scott W wrote
in :

John Navas wrote:
On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:31:09 +0000, Tony Polson wrote in
:

"Neil Harrington" wrote:
It's been said here that the lenses
are of Panasonic design, to which Leitz suggested some modifications.
That was stated on one of the Leica online forums by a representative
of Leica (Solms).

Citation? And how would you know the person was qualified to speak for
Leica in any event?

That
sounds reasonable, and it hardly makes it what most people would consider a
Leica lens.
Agree 100%. It isn't a bad lens. It appears sharp and it is quite
good at resisting flare. But it has quite strong rectilinear
distortion and there is noticeable colour fringing. It is probably in
the top 10% of zoom lenses fitted to digital point and shoot cameras,
but that is not saying much.

It actually has relatively little distortion, and is excellent overall,
particularly in terms of aberrations.

Are you talking about the FZ8?, I have lost track a bit.

FZ15 is the context.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)