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Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 18th 17, 09:17 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?

For the last several years I have relied on an (almost) matched pairs
of Dell 2410 monitors - and now one has died. Not really surprising,
considering it was +8 years old, but it was a bloody good monitor. I
am now faced with the task of replacing it.

I don't want to just replace it as it would amount to no more than
installing 8 year old technology and I have been frantically beating
around the bush trying to decide what to do. I am considering all
kinds of options but I don't want to go into them now. One possibility
which is raising sweat to my brow is the use of a high gamut monitor
such as the Dell Ultrasharp 25 UP2516D
http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-...or-accessories
or http://tinyurl.com/hdpepts

My reading on the subject suggests that monitors such as this can have
problems with non-color-managed applications such as many that can be
found on the Internet and can also create problems when editing images
in all kinds of software. I would like to know if anyone has had any
experience with such monitors and what their comments may be. Should I
consider them and, if so, with what caveats in mind?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #2  
Old January 18th 17, 09:35 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Floyd L. Davidson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,138
Default Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?

Eric Stevens wrote:
For the last several years I have relied on an (almost) matched pairs
of Dell 2410 monitors - and now one has died. Not really surprising,
considering it was +8 years old, but it was a bloody good monitor. I
am now faced with the task of replacing it.

I don't want to just replace it as it would amount to no more than
installing 8 year old technology and I have been frantically beating
around the bush trying to decide what to do. I am considering all
kinds of options but I don't want to go into them now. One possibility
which is raising sweat to my brow is the use of a high gamut monitor
such as the Dell Ultrasharp 25 UP2516D
http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-...-accessoriesor
http://tinyurl.com/hdpepts


I've never seen one, but in the past have used various
Dell UltraSharp monitors for general purpose uses, and
like them all. I've never used one specifically for
image editing.

They all tend to be excessively vivid, with over bright
saturated colors. But proper calibration should control
that to at least some degree. Note that the eventual
effect is the opposite of what you see, so editing an
image with an over saturated monitor will result in
images that are under saturated to everyone else. And
viewing their images will result in more saturation than
they intended.

My reading on the subject suggests that monitors such
as this can have problems with non-color-managed
applications such as many that can be found on the
Internet and can also create problems when editing
images in all kinds of software. I would like to know
if anyone has had any experience with such monitors and
what their comments may be. Should I consider them and,
if so, with what caveats in mind?


For image editing I use high end monitors purposely
targeted at the use. Currently I use Eizo and NEC
monitors. They can display a full 100% of Adobe RGB, as
well as what is actually needed, which is 100% of sRGB.

The problem is not the monitor's wide gamut, it's what
you set your software to use! Do yourself a favor and
ignore everything on this topic except for one sentence:
"Set everything to sRGB." That will save no end of
problems, and you won't lose a thing either.

If you are doing layouts for a magazine, where they will
put your image on the top of the page an another image
from a different source on the bottom of the page, will
you ever want to use a higher gamut than sRGB. Those
two images need to match exactly! Imagine a Nikon
advertisement with two different shades of yellow on two
different pages. Nikon would have a fit and some ad
agency would lose a contract...

If you print for hanging on the wall or to post images
to the Internet, sRGB is perfect. If you set everything
you have, from the camera to the editor and viewers, to
sRGB you won't have a problem.

I'll give you an example of the kind of problem
possible. This is seen all the time. I frequent a
photography forum that will post 600x800 images. To see
an image larger than that they have an option to provide
the larger image as a download. In the forum post we
only see the 600x800 maximum sized thumbnails, and only
by clicking on a "Download Original" button we can see
whatever the full sized image is... with the Exif data
included! That 600x800, for privacy and other reasons,
has the Exif data stripped automatically.

So lots of folks edit images in either Adobe RGB or in
ProPhoto RGB colorspace. People post images without
converting them to sRGB. The 600x800 sized thumbnail has
the colorspace tag stripped and instead of being
displayed correctly as edited, it shows up as a very
flat image. The original, if downloaded, look perfect
(it still has the tag). If the original is converted to
sRGB before uploading the stripped thumbnail will look
correct, as will the original full sized image. That is
and easy to avoid problem!

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Utqiagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
  #3  
Old January 18th 17, 10:25 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?

In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

The problem is not the monitor's wide gamut, it's what
you set your software to use! Do yourself a favor and
ignore everything on this topic except for one sentence:
"Set everything to sRGB." That will save no end of
problems, and you won't lose a thing either.


that is the worst advice *ever*.

setting everything to srgb when one has a wide gamut display is stupid.

might as well just buy a cheap srgb display and save money.

it's a bit like buying a 4k tv and watching 1080p (or worse, 720p)
content. the higher quality is wasted.

If you are doing layouts for a magazine, where they will
put your image on the top of the page an another image
from a different source on the bottom of the page, will
you ever want to use a higher gamut than sRGB. Those
two images need to match exactly! Imagine a Nikon
advertisement with two different shades of yellow on two
different pages. Nikon would have a fit and some ad
agency would lose a contract...


few people do layouts for magazines so that can be ignored, but for
those who do, the magazine will specify exactly what they want. some
might want srgb but not all of them do.

If you print for hanging on the wall or to post images
to the Internet, sRGB is perfect. If you set everything
you have, from the camera to the editor and viewers, to
sRGB you won't have a problem.


only if you want substandard results.

for those who print images, there is no reason whatsoever to dumb
everything down to srgb because all but the ****tiest printers can beat
srgb. this is even more noticeable with a modern dci-p3 display and a
high end printer with 16 bit print drivers.

for those who post images, there's also no reason since browsers are
colour managed and dci-p3 displays are rapidly becoming the standard.
  #4  
Old January 19th 17, 12:25 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 11:35:51 -0900, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

Eric Stevens wrote:
For the last several years I have relied on an (almost) matched pairs
of Dell 2410 monitors - and now one has died. Not really surprising,
considering it was +8 years old, but it was a bloody good monitor. I
am now faced with the task of replacing it.

I don't want to just replace it as it would amount to no more than
installing 8 year old technology and I have been frantically beating
around the bush trying to decide what to do. I am considering all
kinds of options but I don't want to go into them now. One possibility
which is raising sweat to my brow is the use of a high gamut monitor
such as the Dell Ultrasharp 25 UP2516D
http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-...-accessoriesor
http://tinyurl.com/hdpepts


I've never seen one, but in the past have used various
Dell UltraSharp monitors for general purpose uses, and
like them all. I've never used one specifically for
image editing.

They all tend to be excessively vivid, with over bright
saturated colors. But proper calibration should control
that to at least some degree. Note that the eventual
effect is the opposite of what you see, so editing an
image with an over saturated monitor will result in
images that are under saturated to everyone else. And
viewing their images will result in more saturation than
they intended.


Yep. That's all understood. That's whay I have calibrated my screens
using various models of Spyder for many years.

My reading on the subject suggests that monitors such
as this can have problems with non-color-managed
applications such as many that can be found on the
Internet and can also create problems when editing
images in all kinds of software. I would like to know
if anyone has had any experience with such monitors and
what their comments may be. Should I consider them and,
if so, with what caveats in mind?


For image editing I use high end monitors purposely
targeted at the use. Currently I use Eizo and NEC
monitors. They can display a full 100% of Adobe RGB, as
well as what is actually needed, which is 100% of sRGB.


Do you ever use the Adobe RGB capability?

The problem is not the monitor's wide gamut, it's what
you set your software to use! Do yourself a favor and
ignore everything on this topic except for one sentence:
"Set everything to sRGB." That will save no end of
problems, and you won't lose a thing either.


Lightroom does everything in Pro Photo. Mind you, you can choose your
gamut when you output an image.

If you are doing layouts for a magazine, where they will
put your image on the top of the page an another image
from a different source on the bottom of the page, will
you ever want to use a higher gamut than sRGB. Those
two images need to match exactly! Imagine a Nikon
advertisement with two different shades of yellow on two
different pages. Nikon would have a fit and some ad
agency would lose a contract...

If you print for hanging on the wall or to post images
to the Internet, sRGB is perfect. If you set everything
you have, from the camera to the editor and viewers, to
sRGB you won't have a problem.

I'll give you an example of the kind of problem
possible. This is seen all the time. I frequent a
photography forum that will post 600x800 images. To see
an image larger than that they have an option to provide
the larger image as a download. In the forum post we
only see the 600x800 maximum sized thumbnails, and only
by clicking on a "Download Original" button we can see
whatever the full sized image is... with the Exif data
included! That 600x800, for privacy and other reasons,
has the Exif data stripped automatically.

So lots of folks edit images in either Adobe RGB or in
ProPhoto RGB colorspace. People post images without
converting them to sRGB. The 600x800 sized thumbnail has
the colorspace tag stripped and instead of being
displayed correctly as edited, it shows up as a very
flat image. The original, if downloaded, look perfect
(it still has the tag). If the original is converted to
sRGB before uploading the stripped thumbnail will look
correct, as will the original full sized image. That is
and easy to avoid problem!

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #5  
Old January 19th 17, 12:34 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 16:25:24 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

The problem is not the monitor's wide gamut, it's what
you set your software to use! Do yourself a favor and
ignore everything on this topic except for one sentence:
"Set everything to sRGB." That will save no end of
problems, and you won't lose a thing either.


that is the worst advice *ever*.

setting everything to srgb when one has a wide gamut display is stupid.

might as well just buy a cheap srgb display and save money.

it's a bit like buying a 4k tv and watching 1080p (or worse, 720p)
content. the higher quality is wasted.

If you are doing layouts for a magazine, where they will
put your image on the top of the page an another image
from a different source on the bottom of the page, will
you ever want to use a higher gamut than sRGB. Those
two images need to match exactly! Imagine a Nikon
advertisement with two different shades of yellow on two
different pages. Nikon would have a fit and some ad
agency would lose a contract...


few people do layouts for magazines so that can be ignored, but for
those who do, the magazine will specify exactly what they want. some
might want srgb but not all of them do.

If you print for hanging on the wall or to post images
to the Internet, sRGB is perfect. If you set everything
you have, from the camera to the editor and viewers, to
sRGB you won't have a problem.


only if you want substandard results.

for those who print images, there is no reason whatsoever to dumb
everything down to srgb because all but the ****tiest printers can beat
srgb. this is even more noticeable with a modern dci-p3 display and a
high end printer with 16 bit print drivers.


That's the nub of my problem. Prints are the final destination of my
best images and my Epson P800 can utilise better gamut than sRGB's.

for those who post images, there's also no reason since browsers are
colour managed and dci-p3 displays are rapidly becoming the standard.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #6  
Old January 19th 17, 12:36 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:


for those who print images, there is no reason whatsoever to dumb
everything down to srgb because all but the ****tiest printers can beat
srgb. this is even more noticeable with a modern dci-p3 display and a
high end printer with 16 bit print drivers.


That's the nub of my problem. Prints are the final destination of my
best images and my Epson P800 can utilise better gamut than sRGB's.


yep.
  #7  
Old January 19th 17, 09:44 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 22:19:33 -0800 (PST), RichA
wrote:

On Wednesday, 18 January 2017 03:17:37 UTC-5, Eric Stevens wrote:
For the last several years I have relied on an (almost) matched pairs
of Dell 2410 monitors - and now one has died. Not really surprising,
considering it was +8 years old, but it was a bloody good monitor. I
am now faced with the task of replacing it.

I don't want to just replace it as it would amount to no more than
installing 8 year old technology and I have been frantically beating
around the bush trying to decide what to do. I am considering all
kinds of options but I don't want to go into them now. One possibility
which is raising sweat to my brow is the use of a high gamut monitor
such as the Dell Ultrasharp 25 UP2516D
http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-...or-accessories
or http://tinyurl.com/hdpepts

My reading on the subject suggests that monitors such as this can have
problems with non-color-managed applications such as many that can be
found on the Internet and can also create problems when editing images
in all kinds of software. I would like to know if anyone has had any
experience with such monitors and what their comments may be. Should I
consider them and, if so, with what caveats in mind?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens


Too bad you can't wait. In less than six months, if they haven't already, they'll be blowing out these non-4K monitors for a song.


Needs must. My number 1 monitot (8 years old) blew up three days ago.

As things stand at the moment there seem to be a variety of problems
using 4k monitors for photo editing.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #8  
Old January 19th 17, 03:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,039
Default Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?

On 1/18/2017 4:25 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

The problem is not the monitor's wide gamut, it's what
you set your software to use! Do yourself a favor and
ignore everything on this topic except for one sentence:
"Set everything to sRGB." That will save no end of
problems, and you won't lose a thing either.


that is the worst advice *ever*.

setting everything to srgb when one has a wide gamut display is stupid.

might as well just buy a cheap srgb display and save money.

it's a bit like buying a 4k tv and watching 1080p (or worse, 720p)
content. the higher quality is wasted.

If you are doing layouts for a magazine, where they will
put your image on the top of the page an another image
from a different source on the bottom of the page, will
you ever want to use a higher gamut than sRGB. Those
two images need to match exactly! Imagine a Nikon
advertisement with two different shades of yellow on two
different pages. Nikon would have a fit and some ad
agency would lose a contract...


few people do layouts for magazines so that can be ignored, but for
those who do, the magazine will specify exactly what they want. some
might want srgb but not all of them do.


So you actually know what the OP does.


If you print for hanging on the wall or to post images
to the Internet, sRGB is perfect. If you set everything
you have, from the camera to the editor and viewers, to
sRGB you won't have a problem.


only if you want substandard results.


So says the individual who has proven that his images all have excellent
tonal ranges.



for those who print images, there is no reason whatsoever to dumb
everything down to srgb because all but the ****tiest printers can beat
srgb. this is even more noticeable with a modern dci-p3 display and a
high end printer with 16 bit print drivers.

for those who post images, there's also no reason since browsers are
colour managed and dci-p3 displays are rapidly becoming the standard.



--
PeterN
  #9  
Old January 19th 17, 03:42 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,039
Default Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?

On 1/19/2017 3:44 AM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 22:19:33 -0800 (PST), RichA
wrote:

On Wednesday, 18 January 2017 03:17:37 UTC-5, Eric Stevens wrote:
For the last several years I have relied on an (almost) matched pairs
of Dell 2410 monitors - and now one has died. Not really surprising,
considering it was +8 years old, but it was a bloody good monitor. I
am now faced with the task of replacing it.

I don't want to just replace it as it would amount to no more than
installing 8 year old technology and I have been frantically beating
around the bush trying to decide what to do. I am considering all
kinds of options but I don't want to go into them now. One possibility
which is raising sweat to my brow is the use of a high gamut monitor
such as the Dell Ultrasharp 25 UP2516D
http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-...or-accessories
or http://tinyurl.com/hdpepts

My reading on the subject suggests that monitors such as this can have
problems with non-color-managed applications such as many that can be
found on the Internet and can also create problems when editing images
in all kinds of software. I would like to know if anyone has had any
experience with such monitors and what their comments may be. Should I
consider them and, if so, with what caveats in mind?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens


Too bad you can't wait. In less than six months, if they haven't already, they'll be blowing out these non-4K monitors for a song.


Needs must. My number 1 monitot (8 years old) blew up three days ago.

As things stand at the moment there seem to be a variety of problems
using 4k monitors for photo editing.


FWIW, when my monitor crapped out I was torn between the ASUS and the
NEC. I played with both, and when color corrected, with proper profiles,
the prints were indistinguishable using Costco for my prints. I had the
same result when replicated the test on an Epson P880 so I went for the
much lower priced ASUS, which has satisfied my needs. Also the sizing
for the digital competitions I enter make a wider gamut screen a waste
of money. When that changes I will get a new monitor for images and keep
the one I have for toolbars and pallets. I am simply stating the reasons
for my decision.

YMMV

--
PeterN
  #10  
Old January 19th 17, 05:48 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Does anyone have experience of High Gamut monitors?

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

As things stand at the moment there seem to be a variety of problems
using 4k monitors for photo editing.


no there aren't, nor are there problems with 5k displays.
 




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